The Info Underground

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Uroko

うろこ

(http://www.printsofjapan.com/images/Uroko_fish_scale_mon2.jpg)

Quotehttp://urokomovie.com/

[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8cFnvfmot0[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8cFnvfmot0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8cFnvfmot0)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tczV8bKSErk[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tczV8bKSErk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tczV8bKSErk)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUKDXW3YaVA[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUKDXW3YaVA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUKDXW3YaVA)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjBWr341UU[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjBWr341UU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjBWr341UU)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPCx9C8PHjg[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPCx9C8PHjg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPCx9C8PHjg)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAPCF-OBp3Q[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAPCF-OBp3Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAPCF-OBp3Q)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtO79eR5o_E[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtO79eR5o_E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtO79eR5o_E)


Now MAYBE [and I said maybe with reservations because of the Phoenician connections/implications which I see Very Strong and Clear in the Proxy Empires through the Ages with their LAW OF THE SEAS / Uniform Commercial Code / Company Law / Corporate law yada yada and the Phoenician origins of this Same Admiralty Law]. OR The divertion/misdirection/deception Begins (or Misinterpretation) - Because we know of the the Talmud, and the Cryptos, The Phoenicia Bloodlines, the consequences of the implementation of "Josephus problem" as a mathematical solution/ safe heaven for the Real Ruling Elites, just to name some of it - and in front of all Millenia and Millenia of years of Mass Deception (Also known as "Official History"). Anyway, all information must be scrutinized closely, this in good Parmenidean spirit [principle] but without the queer part ; )


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A8jn6Is4Dw[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A8jn6Is4Dw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A8jn6Is4Dw)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdLy-olNlFs[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdLy-olNlFs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdLy-olNlFs)


[youtube:avjxecyu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5nZJFFoqhA[/youtube]avjxecyu]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5nZJFFoqhA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5nZJFFoqhA)


This are the first 10 parts of UROKO, I'll wait to get my humble verdict until I'd seen it all, I'm waiting for the rest, I leave you now with what seens to be their core theory in the link here below, bye bye for now.

Quotehttp://urokomovie.com/viking_origins.shtml

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this is very interesting.....

This is very interesting, but I'll wait to give my verdict until I have seen the rest.

I found this of interest and related. Note I don't subscribe to the "Holy Bloodline" mythology that much. I see it more as inter-generational "secret agreements and agendas". A lot of the references in Dan Brown's, The Da Vinci Code, were found to be total fictions.:

--------------

QuoteRothschilds and the Grail Bloodline
- by David Livingstone ©, Aug. 22nd, 2005

Jacob Rothschild Jacob Rothschild, the current head of the Rothschild dynasty, has intermarried with the Sinclair family, forging an important alliance between the head family of the Illuminati, and the supposed descendants of the Grail family.

As has been popularized recently by Dan Brown in the Da Vinci Code, or before him by the Holy Blood, Holy Grail, the Stuarts of Scotland are supposedly descended from King Arthur and Jesus Christ. These families are of course not descended from Jesus. The idea is preposterous. But they are related to the Holy Grail, and they are not Christians, but Kabbalists.

In reality, they, like all the aristocratic bloodlines that form the core of the Illuminati, are descended from Guillaume de Gellone of the eighth century AD. Guillaume's father was Rabbi Makhir, among the Exilarchs who ruled the Jews in Baghdad, who was sent West after a dispute over the successorship. In France, he took the name Theodoric, married Alda, the aunt of Charlemagne, and was appointed "King of the Jews" in the region of the Languedoc, with his capital the city of Narbonne.

Narbonne then became the heartland of the Medieval Kabbalah. The Kabbalists of Narbonne seem to have been responsible for instigating the Crusades, in order to retrieve sacred texts that had been buried there, but which had been unaccessible because of first the rule of the Romans, and then the Muslims. Once Jerusalem was conquered, a Kabbalistic order of knights known as the Templars conducted excavations, and discovered the text of the Sepher ha Bahir, which revived the lost mystical tradition, and set off the cultural revolution of the Medieval Kabbalah.

Another aspect of the penetration of these Kabbalistic ideas was the heresy of the Cathars. The Cathar foothold was in the region of Tolouse, the bastion of the descendants of Guillaume, also known as the family of the Guilhemids, several of whom were ardent defenders of the heresy. However, the Cathars have been idealized by numerous Illuminati propagandists as having been innocent victims of Church persecutions, but the Cathars rejected the God of the Bible, in favour of the worship of Lucifer and practiced witchcraft. It was the Cathars who influenced the heretical aspects of the Templars, for which the order was disbanded in 1307.

Part of this Kabbalistic revolution was the legends of the Holy Grail, which included Cathar and Templar themes, and formulated in the region of Aquitaine, another stronghold of the Guilhemids. The Holy Grail, or San Greal, should have been translated as Sang Real, or Royal Blood, because it referred to the sacred bloodline that supposedly issued from Guillaume de Gellone, and ultimately King David, but which in reality, was understood to represent the descendants of the Fallen Angels, and their leader, Lucifer.

The Sinclairs were descendants of Guillaume de Gellone, through his great-great-granddaughter, Poppa of Bavaria, who married the Viking leader, Rollo Ragnvaldsson. Among Rollo's descendants was William the Conqueror of Normandy. The Sinclairs, or St. Clair, were given various other castles around France. However, they all went to England with the Conqueror. One Sinclair, though, named William, did not like the Conqueror, so with some other discontented barons, he went to Scotland and placed himself in the service of King Malcolm III of Scotland.

Malcolm III King of Scotland was the father of David I "the Saint" King of Scotland. In 1128, soon after the Council of Troyes, Hugh de Payens, the Templars' first Grand Master, met with King David I of Scotland. King David later surrounded himself with Templars, and appointed them as "the Guardians of his morals by day and night".

David married the grand-daughter of Lambert II, the brother of Godefroi de Bouillon, leader of the first crusade, and the sister of sister of William the Conqueror. Godefroi's younger brother, Eustace III, married David's sister, Mary Scots. Their daughter married Stephen I King of England, the son Adela de Normandie, the daughter of William the Conqueror. Adela's brother, Henry I King of England, married David's sister, Editha of Scotland. Their daughter, Mathilda Empress of England, married Geoffrey V, Comte d'Anjou, whose son Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine.

King David granted Hugues and his knights the lands of Balantrodoch, by the Firth of Forth, but now renamed Temple, near the site of Rosslyn. And, legend has it that, when the Templars came under trial, their leader de Molay arranged for the Templar to return to Scotland, where they assisted Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Bannockburn.

Robert the Bruce claimed the Scottish throne as a great-great-great-great grandson of David. Walter Stewart, the sixth High Steward of Scotland, also played an important part in the Battle of Bannockburn. Walter Stewart then married Majory, daughter of Robert the Bruce, and their son Robert II of Scotland was heir to the House of Bruce; he eventually inherited the Scottish throne after his uncle David II of Scotland died.

In Scotland, the Templars served Robert the Bruce as members of the Scots Guard, of which two prominent families were those of the Stuarts and the Sinclairs. Henry Sinclair was a supporter of Robert the Bruce, and one of his descendants, William Sinclair, designed Rosslyn Chapel, a church in the village of Roslin, replete with occult symbolism, and believed to be one of the sites where the Grail might be buried. Finally, the Sinclairs became the Hereditary Grand Masters of the Masons of Scotland.

After Queen Elizabeth died without an heir, she was succeeded by the son of Mary Queen of Scots, James Stewart I of England, also known as King James. It is for this reason that the Freemasons of the eighteenth century conspired to back the Stuart cause, after their last monarch, James II Stuart, King of England, was deposed, and replaced by William of Orange. The Stuart cause then became the essence of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, which regarded the Stuarts as the inheritors of the Templars, who had rescued the secret tradition of the East, otherwise known as the Kabbalah.

Since the late eighteenth century, however, the Illuminati have come under the leadership of the Rothschild family. The founder of the dynasty, Mayer Amschel Rothschild, ordered his sons to marry only their first cousins, continuing the careful intermarrying practiced by their predecessors.

However, the first exception was Hannah, the daughter of Amschel Mayer's son, the notorious Nathan Mayer Rothschild, who married the Rt. Hon. Henry Fitzroy, a direct descendant of Charles II Stuart King of England, the father of James II.

More recently, however, is the great-great-great grandson of Nathan Mayer, Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, who married Mary Serena Dunn. The mother of Mary Serena was Lady Mary Sybil St. Clair-Erskine, who was the daughter of James Francis Harry St. Clair-Erskine, 5th Earl of Rosslyn.

Rothschild, Buffet, Arnold, Supreme Court in IsraelJacob Rothschild is the current head of the UK Rothschild family, having inherited the fourth baronetcy from his father, Victor, an eminent zoologist, and sometime MI5 agent and friend of KGB agents Anthony Blunt and Guy Burgess. Jacob resigned from the family's bank NM Rothschilds in 1980, run by his cousin Evelyn, and started RIT Capital Partners.

Jacob Rothschild resigned from the family's bank NM Rothschilds in 1980, run by his cousin Evelyn, and started RIT Capital Partners. He is chairman of Yad Hanadiv, the Rothschild foundation, which built and gave the Knesset government buildings and the Supreme Court to Israel, and chairs the Jewish Policy Research, dedicated to promoting issues affecting Jews worldwide.

Jacob Rothschild is chairman of Yad Hanadiv, the Rothschild foundation, which chairs the Jewish Policy Research, dedicated to promoting issues affecting Jews worldwide. Yad Hanadiv was also responsible for building and granting the Knesset government buildings, and the Supreme Court of Israel, which prominently features Masonic symbolism and the pyramid and all-seeing eye of the Illuminati.

Jacob Rothschild was a close personal friend of the Princess Diana, and maintains strong personal and business links with Henry Kissinger (Rumsfeld and Cheney are Kissinger political Proteges). He knows Rupert Murdoch well, having been friends since the Australian newspaper proprietor first came to the UK in the 1960s. His country estate has been a regular venue for visiting heads of state including Presidents Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. Margaret Thatcher received French President François Mitterrand there at a summit in 1990. He hosted the European Economic Round Table conference in 2002, attended by such figures as James Wolfensohn, president of the World Bank, Nicky Oppenheimer, Warren Buffet and Arnold Schwarzenegger.
About the Author

David Livingstone is an historian who lives in Montreal, Canada. He is the author of The Dying God: The Hidden History of Western Civilization.

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ro ... _Grail.htm (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Rothschild_Grail.htm)

How cool! - How did you find my movie?  

I am Eric, I made that.  Yes, it's a bit amateurish, my resources and video skills are wanting, but I appreciate that /tab was pleased enough to post it here.   Thank you.

Unfortunately, the topic that really interests me, the ancient roots of the ruling elite, the true nature of Zionism etc., is too deep to really address in the video I'm trying to finish.    Now that I have established the skull and bones connections, I can continue with the Bush/Harriman alliance.   Their funding of Adolf Hitler went through Sullivan and Cromwell, whose senior partners were Allen and John Foster Dulles, the former of which was the 3rd architect of the Defense Act of 1947, bringing me back to the topic of the CIA.  The CIA's real purpose was as the attack-dog of the American International Corporation / Guarantee Trust alliance, which is evident in the coups and interventions (on behalf of the multi-nationals controlled by those two companies) that the agency engaged in between WWII and the 1st Gulf War.  I will continue from there, briefly, to 9/11 and the present, hopefully answering the remainder of the big questions I posed.  

Hopefully I can do a second "Uroko" (chapter II?) at some point and just deal with the roots of the elite and the deeper issues.   In the mean time, I keep adding posts on my website.  I recently finished one on Melissena which I am quite proud of, and others are in the works.   http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml)

Again, thanks for your interest, when people pick up on what I'm doing it helps me to keep going.  

I haven't looked around the site much yet, but I will.   Cheers.

Eric/Uroko, well done and I look forward to more of your work!

For those who want to download this documentary I uploaded it on concen, demonoid, & thepiratebay. Great documentary and thanks for sharing.

http://tracker.concen.org/torrents-details.php?id=16022 (http://tracker.concen.org/torrents-details.php?id=16022)

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/2205752/1844464/ (http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/2205752/1844464/)

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5491023/ (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5491023/)

QuoteHow cool! - How did you find my movie?

I found it by tapping your phone  :D

QuoteI am Eric, I made that.  Yes, it's a bit amateurish, my resources and video skills are wanting, but I appreciate that /tab was pleased enough to post it here.   Thank you.

You are very welcome! It was really my pleasure! Thank you for doing this research, which country are you from? Well, I have this information (really coming from Benjamin Harrison Freedman [1890 – May 1984]) about the mytical figure of Rorik of Dorestad, he was a Viking, the first one taking the Khasars Empire by the horn and having victory after victory so they retread from Lithuanian, Polen, Russia, the Ukraine, and so many more other slaves territories under the Jewish Khazarian talmudic rule, so the question is what role had Rorik played on all this part of European History ?

Rorik of Dorestad

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Rorik_by_H._W._Koekkoek.jpg/220px-Rorik_by_H._W._Koekkoek.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Nicholas_Roerich%2C_Guests_from_Overseas.jpg/250px-Nicholas_Roerich%2C_Guests_from_Overseas.jpg)

(http://www.bertsgeschiedenissite.nl/middeleeuwen/eeuw9/noormangr.jpg)
http://www.bertsgeschiedenissite.nl/mid ... rmangr.jpg (http://www.bertsgeschiedenissite.nl/middeleeuwen/eeuw9/noormangr.jpg)

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/webpics/rurik.jpg)

(http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Prizvanievaryagov.jpg/250px-Prizvanievaryagov.jpg)

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

The Varangians or Varyags (sometimes referred to as Variagians' Vikings)

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian

Joseph ben Aaron was king of the Khazars during the 950s and 960s.
Joseph actively sought contact with Jews elsewhere in the diaspora. He corresponded with Hasdai ibn Shaprut, a rabbi in Cordoba, and invited him to settle in Khazaria. He is also mentioned in the Schechter Letter.
Joseph was involved in wars against the Kievan Rus and the Pechenegs, as well as sporadic fighting with the Byzantines in the Crimea. He reported that he was allied with the Muslim states around the Caspian Sea against Varangian marauders from Rus' and Scandinavia.

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_(Khazar)

Likewise, the Khazar rulers viewed themselves as the protectors of international Jewry, and corresponded with foreign Jewish leaders (the letters exchanged between the Khazar ruler Joseph and the Spanish rabbi Hasdai ibn Shaprut have been preserved).

Trade

The Khazars occupied a prime trade nexus. Goods from western Europe travelled east to Central Asia and China and vice versa, and the Muslim world could only interact with northern Europe via Khazar intermediaries. The Radhanites, a guild of medieval Jewish merchants, had a trade route that ran through Khazaria, and may have been instrumental in the Khazars' conversion to Judaism.

This Radhanites were a very important link to their global Empire already in place

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhanite

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Radhanites2.png)

No Khazar paid taxes to the central government. Revenue came from a 10% levy on goods transiting through the region, and from tribute paid by subject nations. The Khazars exported honey, furs, wool, millet and other cereals, fish, and slaves. D.M. Dunlop and Artamanov asserted that the Khazars produced no material goods themselves, living solely on trade. This theory has been refuted by discoveries over the last half-century, which include pottery and glass factories.

Tributary and subject nations

Many nations were tributaries of the Khazars. A client king subject to Khazar overlordship was called an "Elteber". At various times, Khazar vassals included:
Pontic steppes, Crimea and Turkestan; The Pechenegs ; the Oghuz; the Crimean Goths; the Crimean Huns (Onogurs?); the early Magyars; Caucasus; Georgia; Abkhazia; various Armenian principalities; Arran; the North Caucasian Huns; Lazica; the Caucasian Avars; the Kassogs; and the Lezgins. Upper Don and Dnieper
Various East Slavic tribes such as the Derevlians and the Vyatichs; various early Rus' polities Volga; Volga Bulgaria; the Burtas; various Finno-Ugrian forest tribes such as the Mordvins and Ob-Ugrians; the Bashkir; the Barsils

Decline and fall

The ninth century is sometimes known as the Pax Khazarica, a period of Khazar hegemony over the Pontic steppe that allowed trade to flourish and facilitated trans-Eurasian contacts. However, in the early 10th century the empire began to decline due to the attacks of both Vikings from Kievan Rus and various Turkic tribes. It enjoyed a brief revival under the strong rulers Aaron II and Joseph, who subdued rebellious client states such as the Alans and led victorious wars against Rus invaders.

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

Schechter Letter
Implications of the text

Among the beliefs of Zuckerman and others who have analyzed these sources are that the Khazars did not lose Kiev until the early 900s (rather than 882, the traditional date), that Igor was not Rurik's son but rather a more distant descendant, and that Oleg did not immediately follow Rurik, but rather that there is a lost generation between the legendary Varangian lord and his documented successors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schechter_Letter

_________________________________________

QuoteUnfortunately, the topic that really interests me, the ancient roots of the ruling elite, the true nature of Zionism etc., is too deep to really address in the video I'm trying to finish.

About the ancients roots and so on you can always go into later in another documentary, the events of the past century are the right thing to go into, take a look to the books of Eustance Mullins, he already did the research about much of this stuff.  

QuoteNow that I have established the skull and bones connections,

Yes, take also a look to the East India Company, House of Sassoon's involvements, Of course the Opium Wars, Their colonies in Asia : Goa, Honk-Kong, Macao etc. and the distribution in modern time of the drogs to America under the Vietnam war, the Clintons involvement in the cocaine coming from the sephardies families in South-America,

Quote from: "uroko"I can continue with the Bush/Harriman alliance.   Their funding of Adolf Hitler went through Sullivan and Cromwell, whose senior partners were Allen and John Foster Dulles, the former of which was the 3rd architect of the Defense Act of 1947, bringing me back to the topic of the CIA.  The CIA's real purpose was as the attack-dog of the American International Corporation / Guarantee Trust alliance, which is evident in the coups and interventions (on behalf of the multi-nationals controlled by those two companies) that the agency engaged in between WWII and the 1st Gulf War.  I will continue from there, briefly, to 9/11 and the present, hopefully answering the remainder of the big questions I posed.  

Hopefully I can do a second "Uroko" (chapter II?) at some point and just deal with the roots of the elite and the deeper issues.   In the mean time, I keep adding posts on my website.  I recently finished one on Melissena which I am quite proud of, and others are in the works.   http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml)

Again, thanks for your interest, when people pick up on what I'm doing it helps me to keep going.  

I haven't looked around the site much yet, but I will.   Cheers.

Eric, here is some research about what you are treating right now in upcoming Uroko - Part II
Take for example the Language been spoken in the north territories of europe in old times, there you can see the influence of the Phoenician Empire reaching all the way to North Europe:

http://www.britam.org/language.html

In 1282 with the fall of Llywelyn the Last, the last native Prince of Wales of direct descent, Wales became subject to Edward I of England. He decreed the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290; whether this affected Wales, where the writ of the English king was for a long time limited to the implanted boroughs and some of the Marcher territories, is not known. The Welsh chronicle Brut y Tywysogion refers to the event but only in the context of Jews in neighbouring England.

The Canaan elites had been in noth europe already for many centuries before AD !

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Wales

http://www.britam.org/Questions/QuesPhoenicians.html

Eric, you don't gonna believe this , but of course you can research it by yourself, the Spanish language "Castellano" is not other thing but the ladino Hebrew [Latin Hebrew] spoken by the merchant of the ancient times, well it's a lot of thing going on under the ground related to the european languages !


Here is a part showing House of Rothschild been connected to Warburg -> Schiff -> Kuhn and Loeb -> Harriman & Co

Kuhn, Loeb & Co.

Kuhn, Loeb & Co Type Partnership
Industry Investment services
Founded 1867–1977
Headquarters New York City
Key people John M. Schiff
Chairman
Harvey M. Krueger
President and CEO
Products Financial Services
Investment Banking
Investment Management
Employees 550 (1977)
Website http://www.kuhnloeb.com (http://www.kuhnloeb.com)

Kuhn, Loeb & Co. was a bulge bracket, investment bank founded in 1867 by Abraham Kuhn and Solomon Loeb. Under the leadership of Jacob H. Schiff, it grew to be one of the most influential investment banks in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, financing America's expanding railways and growth companies, including Western Union and Westinghouse, and thereby becoming the principal rival of J.P. Morgan & Co. In the years following Schiff's death in 1920, the firm was led by Otto Kahn and Felix Warburg, men who had already solidified their roles as Schiff's able successors. However, the firm's fortunes began to fade following World War II, when it failed to keep pace with a rapidly changing investment banking industry, where Kuhn, Loeb's old-world, genteel ways, did not seem to fit; the days of the gentleman-banker had passed. The firm lost its independence in 1977 when it merged with Lehman Brothers, to create Lehman Brothers, Kuhn, Loeb Inc. The combined firm was itself acquired in 1984 by American Express, forming Shearson Lehman/American Express and with that, the Kuhn, Loeb name was lost forever. Kuhn Loeb is considered to be one of the last Gentlemen Investment houses.

History

Kuhn, Loeb & Co. was an investment bank located in New York City. It was founded in 1867, by Abraham Kuhn and Solomon Loeb. Kuhn and Loeb had created a successful merchandising business in Cincinnati, Ohio, when they decided to move east, to New York, to take advantage of the country's burgeoning economic expansion. Company records indicate that by the time Kuhn and Loeb established their partnership, they were able to capitalize it at $500,000. On January 1, 1875, Jacob Schiff (1847-1920), Solomon Loeb's son-in-law, joined the firm and began a remarkable reign as its leader, during which it grew to be the most prestigious investment bank in the United States, perhaps, second only, to J. Pierpont Morgan's, J.P. Morgan & Co.

Jacob Schiff
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/JacobSchiff.jpg)

The firm grew to prominence during the railroad era in the United States. Much like the internet boom which struck America in the 1990s, Americans saw great hope and promise in the railroad era and investors saw great opportunities to profit. Kuhn, Loeb, like all investment banks, brought capital together with commercial opportunity. Its first meaningful entry into railroad financing was in 1877 when it raised funds for the Chicago and North Western Railroad, and several years later, in 1881, for the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railroad.

Schiff was instrumental in the reorganization of the Union Pacific in 1897, helping to place the firm on sound financial footing. In 1901, with Kuhn, Loeb's financial support, E. H. Harriman famously battled James Jerome Hill and J.P. Morgan to acquire control of the Northern Pacific Railroad.

The firm was long associated with many of America's emerging industrial giants, providing financial backing for Westinghouse and Western Union, as well as innovative consumer giants like the Polaroid Corporation. The firm also enjoyed respect as a trusted adviser overseas, providing services to numerous foreign governments, including the governments of Austria, Finland, Mexico and Venezuela.

It also acted as the leading investment house for John D. Rockefeller, through the guidance of his investment adviser, Frederick T. Gates. Rockefeller invested in many syndicates with the bank, including major stakes in the prominent railroad companies, as well as contributing to its consolidation of the Chicago meatpackers, which resulted in the formation of a leading trust. Overseas ventures that Rockefeller also got involved with included the bank's loans to the Chinese and Imperial Japanese governments.

The firm also joined a partnership with Rockefeller in 1911 to gain control of the Equitable Trust Company, which was later to merge and become the Chase Bank.[1]

Famous partners of the firm included Otto Kahn, Paul Warburg, Felix Warburg, Mortimer Schiff, Benjamin Buttenwieser, Lewis Strauss, Sigmund Warburg, founder of S.G. Warburg.

Otto Kahn
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c7/Otto_Kahn_1.jpg)

In its early years, intermarriage among the German-Jewish elite was common. Consequently, the partners of Kuhn, Loeb were closely related by blood and marriage to the partners of J & W Seligman, Speyer & Co., Goldman, Sachs & Co., Lehman Brothers and other prominent German-Jewish firms. Prior to the Second World War, a particularly close relationship existed between the partners of Kuhn, Loeb and M. M. Warburg & Co. of Hamburg, Germany, through Paul and Felix, who were Kuhn, Loeb partners. Later on, following World War II, their cousin Sigmund Warburg, would briefly continue this relationship as a partner and Executive Director of the firm.

The firm's fortunes began to fade in the years following World War II. Wall Street was changing and shifting away from relationship banking. Kuhn, Loeb's world of gentlemen bankers was gradually being replaced by a more aggressive, transaction-oriented Wall Street, with underwriters entering the trenches and selling securities directly to the public, territory Kuhn, Loeb stubbornly refused to enter. When asked how many people worked at Kuhn, Loeb, one partner famously quipped, "about half". Such was life at Kuhn, Loeb, resting on its laurels, while Wall Street passed it by.

In 1977, facing a capital crisis, the firm succumbed and merged with Lehman Brothers, to form Lehman Brothers, Kuhn, Loeb Inc. Internationally, the merged firms were known as Kuhn Loeb Lehman Brothers Inc., in recognition of the fact that Kuhn Loeb's international reputation was superior to that of Lehman's.

The merger did not, however, prove to be the panacea to what ailed Kuhn, Loeb. Indeed, as detailed more closely in the Lehman Brothers history, a period of bitter internal strife ended in 1984 when the firm sold itself to Shearson/American Express, itself the product of a recent merger between American Express and Sandy Weill's, Shearson Loeb Rhodes. The combined firms, then dropped the Kuhn, Loeb name and became known as Shearson Lehman/American Express, ending Kuhn, Loeb's almost 120 years on Wall Street.

Later, the combined firm purchased disgraced E.F. Hutton, becoming Shearson Lehman Hutton. Ultimately, however, American Express could not make the pieces of its financial services supermarket work and the firm sold its retail brokerage operations to Primerica in 1993 and in 1994 spun off a beleaguered Lehman Brothers as Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., in an initial public offering.

Although the Kuhn, Loeb name is likely lost forever, the firm's legacy is not. Former Kuhn, Loeb employees remain in senior positions throughout Wall Street and until recently, at Lehman Brothers. Vestiges of the firm survived in the form of Lehman Brothers' extensive fixed income capabilities, including many of their bond indices, such as the Government/Credit index. This index, originally birthed in 1973 by Kuhn, Loeb, as the Government/Corporate index was among the first generation of bond index data to measure the fixed income market. It is still the preeminent benchmark in its class.

Partners of the Firm

General Partners
Abraham Kuhn (1867-1887)
Solomon Loeb^ (1867-1899)
Samuel Wolff (1867-1872)
Samuel Kuhn (1868-1869)
Jacob Netter (1867-1869)
Jacob H. Schiff^ (1875-1920)
Abraham Wolff (1875-1900)
Michael Gernsheim (1875-1881)
Lewis S. Wolff (1884-1891)
James Loeb (1894-1901)
Louis A. Heinsheimer (1894-1909)
Felix M. Warburg (1897-1937)
Otto H. Kahn^ (1897-1934)
Mortimer L. Schiff (1900-1931)
Paul M. Warburg (1903-1914)
Jerome J. Hanauer** (1912-1932)
Gordon Leith (London) (1927-1930)
George W. Bovenizer (1929-1961)
Lewis L. Strauss (1929-1946)
Sir William Wiseman, Bart. (1929-1960)
John M. Schiff^ (1931 - ?)
Frederick M. Warburg (1931 - ?)
Gilbert W. Kahn (1931 - ?)
 Benjamin Buttenwieser (1932 - ?)
Hugh Knowlton (1932 - ?)
Elisha Walker (1933-1950)
Percy M. Stewart (1941 - ?)
Robert F. Brown (1941 - ?)
Robert E. Walker (1949-1958)
J. Emerson Thors (1949 - ?)
J. Richardson Dilworth (1952-1958)
Jonas C. Andersen (1955-1956)
Sir Siegmund G. Warburg (London) (1956-1964)
David T. Miralia (1957 - ?)
Kenneth N. Hall (1956 - ?)
Henry Necarsulmer (1956-1977)
Charles J. Ely (1956 - ?)
Bernard Einhorn (1965-1967)
Nathaniel Samuels (? - 1974)
Morris H. Wright
John M. Leonard
Alvin E. Friedman (1962 - ?)
John S. Guest (1962 - ?)
Jerome S. Katzin (1962-1977)
John T. Monzani (1962-?)
H. Spottswood White (1962-?)
 Thomas E. Dewey, Jr. (?-1975)
Andre Istel (1964-1966)
Harvey M. Krueger^ (1965-1977)
Anthony M. Lund
William H. Todd
Yves-Andres Istel (1966 - ?)
John K. Libby (1967 - ?)
James H. Manges (1967 - ?)
David T. Schiff (1967 - ?)
Sydney S. Netreba (1968 - ?)
Sidney J. Sauerhaft (1968 - ?)
Joseph F. Schwartz (1968 - ?)
John Barry Ryan III (1969 -)
Edgar R. Koerner (1969 - ?)
Archie E. Albright (1969 - ?)
Mark C. Feer (1969 - ?)
W. Richard Bingham (1970 - ?)
James A. Favia (1970 - ?)
William M. Kearns, Jr. (1970 - ?)
Norman W. Stewart (1970 - ?)
Clifford W. Michel (1972 - ?)
Robert M. Shepard (1973 - ?)
 

** First non-family member to be admitted to the partnership.
^ Indicates status as former managing partner

Clients of the Firm

American Smelting and Refining Company
Anheuser-Busch Incorporated
Automatic Data Processing, Inc.
Bank Leumi Le-Israel B.M.
Bayer Foreign Investments Limited
Bethlehem Steel Corporation
C.I.T. Financial Corporation
Chemical Bank New York Trust Company
Dreyfus Corporation
Eastern Air Lines, Inc.
Endicott Johnson Corporation
Erie Lackawanna Railroad Corporation
European Coal and Steel Community (forerunner of the E.U.)
Ford Foundation
Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company, Inc.
International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation
Israel Discount Bank Limited
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Norway
L.M. Ericsson Telephone Company, Sweden
 Metromedia, Inc.
Metropolis of Tokyo, Japan
Power Authority of the State of New York
R.K.O. General, Inc.
Republic Industrial Corporation
Republic of Austria
Republic of Finland
Republic of Peru
Republic of the Philippines
Republic of Venezuela
Reynolds Metals Company
Rockwell Manufacturing Company
Rockwell-Standard Corp.
Southern Pacific Company
Stouffer Foods Corporation
Uniroyal, Inc.
Mexico (United Mexican States)
Wagner Electric Corporation
Western Union Telegraph Company
Westinghouse Electric Corporation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuhn,_Loeb_&_Co.

Solomon Loeb

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Ignatz_Josef_Porges_-_Solomon_Judah_Loeb_Rapoport_%281841%29.gif)


Solomon Loeb (June 29, 1828, Worms, Rhenish Hesse, Germany — December 12, 1903, New York) was a German-American merchant in textiles and later a banker with Kuhn, Loeb & Co.. His father, a devout Jew, had been a small corn- and wine-dealer in Worms, which belonged to the Grand Duchy of Hesse and by Rhine. S. Loeb emigrated to the United States in 1849. He settled in Cincinnati with textiles merchants Kuhn, Netter & Co. He moved to New York City in 1865 and with his partner Abraham Kuhn started the banking house of Kuhn, Loeb and Co.. His second born son James Loeb joined the bank in 1888 (and left in 1901). Salomon Loeb gradually retired from running the business, but left Kuhn, Loeb & Co. only in 1899. He then started to work in real estate. He was a generous philantropist.

Family

First wife: Fanny Kuhn, sister of Abraham Kuhn
Children of the first marriage:
Therese Loeb, who married Jacob H. Schiff in 1875, their daughter Frieda Schiff married Felix Warburg in 1895.
Second wife: Betty Gallenberg, from Mannheim (Germany). A pianist.
Children of the second marriage: Morris, Guta, James and Nina.
Morris Loeb (b. 1863 Cincinnati, d. 1912) professor of chemistry, married Eda Kuhn in 1895, the daughter of Samuel and Regina Wise Kuhn. Samuel Kuhn was a brother of Abraham Kuhn
Guta Loeb (b. Sept. 5, 1865 New York). She married Isaac N. Seligman, David Seligman's grandson.
James (Jimmy) Loeb (b. 1867 New York, d. 1933) banker
Nina Loeb (b. 1870 - d. 1945), married Paul Warburg in 1895.

Jeanette W. Loeb

(http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/partypictures/2006/09_26_06/mmslk/10AKopelmanJLoeb_091406.jpg)


22 Dec 1986 ... Jeanette W. Loeb Recently appointed the first woman partner of Goldman Sachs, Loeb, 34, has climbed the ladder by staying put. She has never worked at another firm and never strayed from the private finance department. Over the past four years Loeb has built a new specialty for Goldman Sachs: supplier financing. She works out the terms of purchases between corporations and their equipment suppliers. Under Loeb's guidance, clients such as USX and Inland Steel have bought $4 billion worth of equipment, frequently by borrowing money from suppliers at below-market rates. Loeb arrived at Goldman Sachs with a degree in economics from Wellesley College and an MBA from Harvard. What's the next rung on the ladder? She says, ''There's nothing beyond Goldman Sachs for me.''

Quotehttp://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1986/12/22/68444/index.htm

Paid Notice: Deaths
LOEB, PETER K. - Published: November 19, 2004

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:YhdA9XFJq7wJ:query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html%3Fres%3D9802E7DA113FF93AA25752C1A9629C8B63+jeanette+loeb&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk

QuoteLOEB--Peter. Our deepest sympathy to the Loeb family on their loss of Peter, our dear friend. The Madoff Family

Jeanette W. Loeb relationship map - Muckety

http://www.muckety.com/Jeanette-W-Loeb/19216.muckety

Other LOEBs (not necessarily related)

http://www.wtblock.com/wtblockjr/JewishCommunity/ABriefHistoryoftheEarlyBeaumontJewishCommunity.htm

Solomon Judah Loeb Rapoport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Judah_Loeb_Rapoport

http://www.loebtree.com/oloeb.html#jolo

http://www.loebtree.com/yoseph.html

http://www.loebtree.com/index.html
.
.

Lots of good stuff there - I just skimmed over it, but a wealth of information.

Rurik was the great-grandfather of Vladimir I, through whose marriage to Anna Porphorygenita he became the spicket through which royal Khazar and Byzantine blood flowed into the royal houses of Europe.  Kind of strange, but that's par for the course - the Varangians attacked Byzantium yet the Varangian Guards became the body-guards of the Byzantine Emperors starting with Basil II, a close descendant of Melissena and hence part-Khazar.  I'm used to it though, allies turning into enemies and back again over generations is par for the course - I try to just keep my eye on the blood-lines.

Coincidentally, I'm currently working on a post about Vladimir, or should I say, the crest of the Vlad family which is a single silver Magen David  on a blue background, evoking not only the Israeli flag but also the color scheme of Rangabe.   Of course, the Magen David is a pagan symbol - the family of Vlad (as well as a host of other important families such as Payen, the leader of the first Templars Hughes de Payen (the 'Pagan') being one) adopted it long before it became a symbol of Judaism.  The jewish people have been conned, and a pagan symbol foisted on them while Kabbalah was incorporated into the religion as a "sect" - despite the fact that Kabbalah and what it really is about is what Judaism was a departure from from the beginning.  Kabbalah is dualistic - and our leaders aren't Jewish OR Christian - they are, as Eustice Mullins pointed out correctly, Canaanites.  They gain refuge in the dualistic justification of the murder of innocents to further their goals - Order out of Chaos.  

There's a guy in Texas who is way over my head, but a true genius with regard to untangling the myths and the roots of the elite.   He has an online book titled 'Tracking Ladon God and the Hebrew Rose' (which is as explosive as it is dense and difficult to follow).   But for the brave, I recommend it, despite the fact that I don't share "John"'s religious leadings.

http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm (http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm)

By the way, in my movie there are a couple of little mistakes which I need to fix - when Roger I returned to Adelaide's grave the skull was found below the pelvis and the femur bones crossed - reinforcing the Chi-Rho 're-birth' aspect of the myth.  The remains of some Templar Knights show femur bones crossed like this.  

Cheers

Oh, and I just read /tab's bit regarding Kuhn & Loeb.  Yes, the bank merged with Lehman Brothers - but did you know that it split again, into Lehman and the Blackstone Group?   Peter G. Peterson, for who the Peter G. Peterson Institute for International Economics is named, is a high-flyer, the Institute is maybe the most influential (and least known) think tank in the world and its list of directors is a "who's who" list.   I suspect that the important people at Lehman Bros. had long moved to Blackstone and Lehman was thrown to the wolves.

Spelling mistake above, the title of John's book is 'Tracking Ladon Gog.   (As in Magag and Gog.)

uroko added to TIU TV

@ /tab

QuoteNow MAYBE [and I said maybe with reservations because of the Phoenician connections/implications which I see Very Strong and Clear in the Proxy Empires through the Ages with their LAW OF THE SEAS / Uniform Commercial Code / Company Law / Corporate law yada yada and the Phoenician origins of this Same Admiralty Law]. OR The divertion/misdirection/deception Begins (or Misinterpretation) - Because we know of the the Talmud, and the Cryptos, The Phoenicia Bloodlines, the consequences of the implementation of "Josephus problem" as a mathematical solution/ safe heaven for the Real Ruling Elites, just to name some of it - and in front of all Millenia and Millenia of years of Mass Deception (Also known as "Official History"). Anyway, all information must be scrutinized closely, this in good Parmenidean spirit [principle] but without the queer part ; )

consider the following
that Phoenician is the 16th century Old english way of saying Venetian.
Venetian Naval power at that time escape north to Britain and Netherlands - both becoming naval powers after
willy spear shaker writes merchant of venice trying to humanize the venetian bankers
Chris Marlow writes Jew of Malta - daemonizing  the jew
venetian royal familes and their bankers flee north for protection from Turks aka Ottoman empire
The Dutch eventually sit on the thrown of england ousting the Catholic King James
King james creates the french oriental branch of freemasonry
converts the story rebuilding the temple into the reclamation of the thrown by his seed

the builders

QuoteThere was a MS discovered in the Bodleian Library at Oxford about 1696, supposed to have been written in the year 1436, which purports to be an examination of a Mason by King Henry VI, and is allowed by all to be genuine. Its title runs as follows: "Certain questions with answers to the same concerning the mystery of masonry written by King Henry the Sixth and faithfully copied by me, John

Laylande, antiquarian, by command of his highness." Written in quaint old English, it would doubtless be unintelligible to all but antiquarians, but it reads after this fashion:

What mote it be?—It is the knowledge of nature, and the power of its various operations; particularly the skill of reckoning, of weights and measures, of constructing buildings and dwellings of all kinds, and the true manner of forming all things for the use of man.

Where did it begin?—It began with the first men of the East, who were before the first men of the West, and coming with it, it hath brought all comforts to the wild and comfortless.

Who brought it to the West?—The Phoenicians who, being great merchants, came first from the East into Phoenicia, for the convenience of commerce, both East and West by the Red and Mediterranean Seas.

How came it into England?—Pythagoras, a Grecian, traveled to acquire knowledge in Egypt and Syria, and in every other land where the Phoenicians had planted Masonry; and gaining admittance into all lodges of Masons, he learned much, and returned and dwelt in Grecia Magna, growing and becoming mighty wise and greatly renowned. Here he formed a great lodge at Crotona, and made many Masons, some of whom traveled into France, and there made many more, from whence, in process of time, the art passed into England.

Quote from: "uroko"How cool! - How did you find my movie?  

I am Eric, I made that.  Yes, it's a bit amateurish, my resources and video skills are wanting, but I appreciate that /tab was pleased enough to post it here.   Thank you.

Unfortunately, the topic that really interests me, the ancient roots of the ruling elite, the true nature of Zionism etc., is too deep to really address in the video I'm trying to finish.    Now that I have established the skull and bones connections, I can continue with the Bush/Harriman alliance.   Their funding of Adolf Hitler went through Sullivan and Cromwell, whose senior partners were Allen and John Foster Dulles, the former of which was the 3rd architect of the Defense Act of 1947, bringing me back to the topic of the CIA.  The CIA's real purpose was as the attack-dog of the American International Corporation / Guarantee Trust alliance, which is evident in the coups and interventions (on behalf of the multi-nationals controlled by those two companies) that the agency engaged in between WWII and the 1st Gulf War.  I will continue from there, briefly, to 9/11 and the present, hopefully answering the remainder of the big questions I posed.  

Hopefully I can do a second "Uroko" (chapter II?) at some point and just deal with the roots of the elite and the deeper issues.   In the mean time, I keep adding posts on my website.  I recently finished one on Melissena which I am quite proud of, and others are in the works.   http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml)

Again, thanks for your interest, when people pick up on what I'm doing it helps me to keep going.  

I haven't looked around the site much yet, but I will.   Cheers.

Howdy first off - cool video

Some items of interest maybe

the lusitania sank in 1915 and us entered ww1 in 1917. a complete timeline would be good for you to create.
like balfore declaration
the telegram to mexico
etc..

i created one once.

I was not aware of the RR to Baghdad, which is very interesting especially in light of Rothschilds battle to gain control over the RR in europe with the Perrier guy.
also consider that it is not only about oil, and that ww1 served as a multi purpose geo political tool.
for example
breaking up the Ottoman empire, who crushed the real Jerusalem - Constantinople and cause the ruling families to flee north in the first place.
Also consider the creation of israel as prevention tactic of the ottoman empire ever reforming. A tool to crush any middle east country that becomes to powerful.
just look at the joint operation of the israeli - british operation suez war 1956, when Britain lost control of suez  

Also the British role in creating the Japanese Frankenstein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meiji ... er1906.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MeijiEmperorReceivingOrderOfTheGarter1906.jpg)

here some stuff

http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgenc ... ar+One.htm (http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish+Education/Compelling+Content/Eye+on+Israel/120/Chapter+Four+World+War+One.htm)

I have always had trouble with the timeline
dec 10th 1914 - the plot is on for a homeland
Lusitania Sunk - Friday 7th May 1915
Meeting with Zionists - bring US in and you can have Palestine as homeland*****
Zimmermann Telegram - Feb 24th 1917*** the official reason US joins the War*****
US enters the War - The United States declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917, thus entering WWI.
British Start attack on Palestine Oct 2 1917
Balfore Declaration - Nov 17, 1917
Capture the holy city Dec 11th 1917

World War I placed the Jewish people in a tremendous dilemma: its sons were on both fronts and fighting one another, while demonstrating patriotism to their countries. The World Zionist Organization was also having to deal with an extremely difficult and complicated situation, for its center in Berlin was considered pro-German while its branches in other countries supported, at least partially, the other side. Thus it was decided at the beginning of the war to establish a Zionist liaison office in Copenhagen, the capital of neutral Denmark.

In addition to this, the tiny Jewish settlement in Palestine, the apple of the eye of the World Zionist Organization, was facing a threat to its existence. It was part of the Ottoman Empire, which in 1914 tried to ally itself with the Triple Entente between Germany, Austria-Hungary, the enemies of the Triple Alliance - England, France and Russia. Upon receiving a negative response, the Empire found itself obliged to join the Triple Alliance. Most residents of the Yishuv were Entente citizens (the majority from Russia) and the Turks demanded that they become Ottomans or leave the country. Thousands rushed to leave; others were deported. The situation in Palestine deteriorated rapidly. If not for the Jews of the United States, who came to their rescue by sending money and food by means of American warships (after the government in Washington agreed to provide assistance), the situation might have been far far worse.

At the beginning of the war, most of the Jews in Palestine and many Jews from around the world (including the United States) supported Turkey and Germany. Only a few supported and acted in favor of the involvement of the Jewish-Zionists, the enemies of Turkey, in the Entente. The supporters of the alliance between England and France were in a minority.

They included Chaim Weizmann in London and Ze'ev Jabotinsky, who acted to establish a Jewish Legion in the framework of the British army, Pinhas Rutenberg, who traveled to the United States for the same cause, Baron Rothschild in Paris and Joseph Trumpeldor, who together with Jabotinsky established the first auxiliary unit within the British army, which came to be known as the Zion Mule Corps. The other Zionist leaders disapproved of this activity and considered it a threat both to Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and to the Jewish people as a whole.

Extensive activity took place in England for three years in order to try to persuade this important super power to support Zionist aspirations. Some Zionist leaders participated in this activity, headed by Dr. Weizmann, who took an increasingly major role, the two branches of the Rothschild family (from England and France), and a number of prominent British, non-Jewish personalities. Weizmann, who contributed his skills as a chemist to the British war effort, established strong ties with the minister of munitions, David Lloyd George, and renewed old ties with Lord (Arthur James) Balfour. In 1916, a new government was formed in London, with Lloyd George as prime minister and Lord Balfour as foreign secretary. This contributed significantly to the efforts of the Zionists to advance Zionist aspirations. Weizmann received a good deal of help from the Anglo-Jewish politician Herbert Samuel, as well as Charles P. Scott, the influential editor of the "Manchester Guardian".

On November 2, 1917, the British government conveyed a declaration of sympathy with Jewish-Zionist aspirations. This was approved after many discussions and objections by various groups - among them the head of assimilated British Jewry - and published on this date in the form of the Balfour Declaration (after its author, Lord Balfour). Great Britain, at that time a super power, promised the Jewish people aid in building a Jewish national home in Palestine. In a fantastic historical coincidence, the government approved the declaration on October 31, 1917, the exact same day that the great British attack in southern Palestine (which led to the conquest of this area and of Jerusalem within six weeks) took place.

In 1917, the British approved the establishment of two new Jewish battalions within the British army that would fight on the Palestine front: the first battalion was founded in England at the initiative of Ze'ev Jabotinsky and the second was founded a short time later in the United States by David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, among others. The three leaders were themselves recruited to these battalions. In 1918, a third battalion was established in Eretz Israel.

The Jewish Yishuv suffered greatly during World War I. Its numbers diminished by more than a third - from 85,000 to 56,000 - due to people leaving Palestine, deportations, and economic strife and disease. The conquest of Palestine by the British was a lifesaver and the publication of the Balfour Declaration, together with the advance of the British forces in conquering Jerusalem, was welcomed as part of the coming of the Messiah; granted the people of Israel after the great suffering they had undergone during the war.

The Balfour Declaration was undoubtedly the greatest Jewish-Zionist achievement during World War I. its attainment brought matters full circle: Herzl fought unsuccessfully for a charter, and Weizmann, his successor and youngest rival (one of the greatest supporters of synthetic Zionism, which combined political and practical Zionism) succeeded in finishing the task. Herzl gambled on Turkey and failed; Weizmann gambled on England, which at that time was considered madness, and succeeded.

In September 1918, the British army completed its conquest of Palestine, and 400 years of Turkish rule came to an end. A British military regime replaced it, and the assumption of the Jewish-Zionists was that within a short time the promises made in the Balfour Declaration would be fulfilled. The existence of thousands of Jewish soldiers in the country in the framework of the Jewish Legion was considered a contributing factor to the imminent Jewish uprising. These were days of elation for the Jewish people whose usually bleak future was beginning to look promising.

1914

July 28
World war I breaks out and the Jewish world is torn between the two sides: the Triple Alliance (Russia, England and France), the Triple Entente (Germany and Austria-Hungary, later joined by Turkey). The United States is neutral. Jews fight each other.

August
Because of the war, the Turks suspend their shipping connections with Europe and declare a moratorium - rejecting payments and commitments. This results in a crisis and profound distress in the Jewish Yishuv.

September 8
The Turkish government cancels capitulation measures, according to which foreign nationals are subject only to their consuls and not to the governments of the country in which they live. Thousands of Jews in Palestine with foreign citizenship worry about their fate.

October 6
The American warship "North Carolina" brings $50,000 from the Jews of the United States to the Jewish Yishuv in Eretz Israel. This is the beginning of Jewish-American aid to the Yishuv.

October 30
Turkey enters the war on the side of the Triple Alliance. Palestine, as part of Turkey, is now a participant in the war. The Turks order all foreign nationals in Palestine to take out Turkish citizenship or leave.
Thus begins a mass exodus of Jews from Palestine.

November 9
In a discussion with the British foreign secretary Sir Edward Grey, the Anglo-Jewish politician Herbert Samuel raises, for the first time, the possibility that Turkey will collapse following the war. The super powers, he says, will find it difficult to turn Palestine into one of their own territories, so perhaps it is worthwhile "fulfilling the ancient ambitions of the Jewish people and re-establishing a Jewish state." Grey responds sympathetically.

December 3-6
A meeting of the Actions Committee (Va'ad HaPoel HaZioni) in Copenhagen, after the World Zionist Organization decides to open a Zionist liaison office in neutral Denmark, while leaving its principle institutions in Germany. Sokolow and Chlenov, two Zionist leaders, are dispatched to the United States and arrive, eventually, in England. Zionist activity in most of the European countries-on both fronts - is paralyzed.

December 10
The first meeting between Weizmann and Samuel takes place in London; the first step on the long road to the Balfour Declaration.
Weizmann, a medium-ranking Zionist leader, begins to pave his way to the leadership.

The Jewish Yishuv in Palestine is being persecuted. The Turks arrest suspects, confiscate equipment and supplies, and place prohibitions on the use of Zionist symbols and stamps. Increasing numbers of Jews leave Palestine. American warships help evacuate those wishing to leave to Egypt, which is in British hands.

December 28
Baron Edmond de Rothschild meets in Paris with Dr. Chaim Weizmann. He tells him, surprisingly, that now that Turkey has entered the war, the cautious activity in Eretz Israel must stop and that Jews must work openly and demand the establishment of a Jewish state.

1915

January - March
The Turks arrest a number of young leaders and community activists in Palestine. Among them are Tanya Shohat, Yehoshua Hankin, David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi. Some of them are deported to Turkey for the entire duration of the war, and others - the Ben-Gurion and Ben-Zvi - to Egypt, from where they travel to the United States.

March
Ze'ev Jabotinsky (who arrived from Russia) and Joseph Trumpeldor (who left Palestine because of Turkish persecution) join forces in Alexandria, Egypt to form a Jewish Legion, which will fight with the British in the struggle to liberate Palestine from the Turks. The British refuse to give their consent but agree to the establishment of an auxiliary unit, a mule corps, which comes to be known as the Zion Mule Corps.

April 1
The Mule Corps swears allegiance to the British army. Jabotinsky is not prepared to serve in the corps because its duties only involve transportation, and demands the establishment of a fighting legion. Trumpeldor is recruited to the regiment, firstly as deputy commanding officer with the rank of captain and later as deputy battalion commander. In mid-April, the battalion is sent to the Gallipoli front.

Jabotinsky leaves for Europe in order to establish a Jewish fighting force. He meets with Pinhas Rutenberg, a Russian-Jewish engineer and a leading revolutionary in his country, in Brindesi, Italy. The two agree to work together to bring about the establishment of a Jewish Legion. Rutenberg leaves for the United States in order to advance matters.

April-May
The beginning of the NILI underground movement (its name is chosen later), whose founders are Aaron Aaronsohn and Avshalom Feinberg, together with a small number of settlement members. These young people, in despair over the Turkish government, decide to make contact with the British and help them conquer Palestine from the Turks.

June 10-11
The Actions Committee (Va'ad HaPoel HaZioni) convenes in Copenhagen. It violently rejects Jabotinsky's plan to establish a Jewish Legion. Jabotinsky is warned that if he doesn't cease his activities he will "bury the Zionist enterprise forever." The Actions Committee resolves that "The Jewish Legion project stands in deep contradiction to the principles of Zionist activity... no Zionist will participate or support this activity." Jabotinsky refuses to heed them and despite objections by the majority of Zionist leaders, moves to London where he continues to work towards the establishment of a regiment.

American warships arrive in Palestine throughout the year, bringing money and food sent by American Jews. This aid saves the Jewish Yishuv from starvation and disease. Upon their return, the warships take with them thousands of Jews who are leaving Palestine because of persecution and the ban on foreign nationals of enemy countries remaining in Palestine.

1916

April 16
Britain and France sign the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divides the Middle East between them. It is named after its two signers, senior officials in the foreign ministries of their countries: Sir Mark Sykes from Britain and Francois-Georges Picot from France. According to the agreement, Palestine is to be under the governments of a number of super powers: the Haifa Bay area - in British hands; the majority of the Galilee - in French hands; south of the Judah region and all of the Negev - in the hands of an Arab country backed by Britain; and the rest of Palestine, including Jerusalem, Jaffa, Tiberias and Nazareth - under international control. The agreement raises deep concern in the hearts of the Zionist leaders who wish to establish a Jewish state/national home in Palestine.

May
At the end of the Gallipoli campaign, the British disband the Zion Mule Corps. One hundred and twenty of its members are transferred to England, where they become the basis of the Jewish Legion, which Jabotinsky is in the process of establishing.

July
Aaron Aaronsohn, head of the NILI spy organization, leaves Palestine and travels to Europe. He arrives in Egypt some months later, where he manages spy operations. Operations in Palestine are headed by his sister, Sarah Aaronsohn, Avshalom Feinberg and Joseph Lishansky.

September 20
The Turkish governor in Palestine, Ahmed Jamal Pasha, expels Dr. Arthur Ruppin, head of the Palestine Office (the Zionist representation in Jaffa), from Palestine. It ignores the fact that Ruppin is a German citizen and that Germany is a principle ally of the Turks in the war.

October 21
Kfar Bar-Giora, the first wartime settlement, is established in the Galilee by members of HaShomer. It is headed by Israel Giladi. After Giladi's death in 1918, the kibbutz is named Kfar Giladi in his honor. Throughout the summer and autumn of 1916, the British army advances from Egypt in northern Sinai and crosses over into southern Palestine.

On December 21 it conquers EI-Arish.

1917

In the first months of the year, the British army advances northward and by the end of March arrives in the Gaza region.

March 26-28
The first British assault on Gaza takes place, ending in defeat for the British.

April
The assault provides Jamal Pasha with an excuse to order the wholesale evacuation of the Jews of Jaffa (including the neighborhood of Tel Aviv). He commands them to leave their homes and go north, for fear of a British attack. Ten thousand Jews leave within a few days. Most of the Arab residents escape into the surrounding villages and fields. The leaders of the Yishuv send urgent telegrams summoning the leaders of German and American Jewry and call on them to intervene in order to prevent additional expulsions and perhaps even mass killings (as with the Armenians).

April-May
Weizmann (in London) and Sokolow (in Paris) work feverishly to enlist support for the idea of a Jewish national homeland in Eretz Israel. Weizmann believes that prime minister Lloyd George and foreign secretary Balfour sympathize with the idea. Sokolow, who is being helped by Baron Edmond de Rothschild in Paris, is favorably impressed with the position of the French government. Intensive activity in the United States to gain the support of President Wilson is also underway. The Zionist leader Louis Dembitz Brandeis is especially active now that Wilson has appointed him to the Supreme Court - the first Jew to be appointed to that office. The Zionists increase their efforts to persuade Britain's allies to agree to transfer control over Palestine to Britain once the Turks are defeated.

April 17-20
The second British assault on Gaza brings tremendous force to bear on the city, but again the British are repulsed.

May 4
Sokolow is granted an audience with Pope Benedict XV at the Vatican where he asks for moral support for the aspirations of the Zionists in Eretz Israel. The Pope responds: "Yes, yes. I imagine we will be good neighbors."

June 4
A sympathetic declaration from the French government for Zionist aspirations is made by the secretary general of the foreign ministry, Jules Cambon, to Nahum Sokolow: "lf conditions will allow and the independence of the holy places be preserved, it would be a deed of justice and reparation to assist, by the protection of the Allied Powers, in the renaissance of the Jewish nationality in that Land from which the people of Israel were exiled so many centuries ago."

June 28
General Edmund Allenby is appointed commander of the British forces in Palestine. He replaces General Archibald Murray.

End of June - July 22
Weizmann leaves on a secret mission to Spain on behalf of the British government in order to meet Henry Morganthau, the former American ambassador to Turkey. The latter is heading East in order to implement a plan he has conceived to "remove Turkey from the war," as it opposes both British and Zionist interests. He succeeds in his mission, confirming, unquestionably, the special status of Weizmann in London.

In the summer months, Zionist activity in London, aimed at achieving a formal, sympathetic declaration in favor of Zionism from the British government, increases. The British army is about to conquer Palestine. The Zionists present a proposal, which is conveyed to Lord Balfour by Lord Rothschild on July 18. Jabotinsky continues his efforts to establish a Jewish Legion.

August 23
In London, the British government consents to the formation of the 38th Battalion of Royal Fusiliers. Ze'ev Jabotinsky is among the first recruits.

October 1
The activities of the NILI organization, which had gained momentum from the beginning of the year (the transfer of information to the British in Egypt, the sending of emissaries and the receipt of money which was transferred to Yishuv leaders), come to an end on this date following the Turkish incursion into Zichron Ya'akov. The attack results in the arrest and torture of suspected NILI members and threats of violence against the Jewish Yishuv. NILI leader Sarah Aaronsohn is arrested by the Turkish military authorities and tortured for three days. To escape further torture, she commits suicide. Joseph Lishansky flees but is chased and caught by the Turks on October 20. There is much concern in the Yishuv with regard to a Turkish reprisal.

October
After prolonged discussions and indecision throughout the month of October, the final version of the Balfour Declaration is consolidated. The indecisive parties were really only trying to placate the Arab supporters and the anti-Zionist circles within British Jewry.

October 31
The British launch a large-scale attack in the Negev. It is a diversionary action against Gaza; the main battle is for Beersheva, which falls in one day. On the exact same day, the British government approves the final version of the Balfour Declaration.

November 2
The British government publishes the Balfour Declaration, signed by its foreign secretary, Lord James Arthur Balfour. The Declaration - addressed to Lord Lionel Rothschild who is asked to bring it to the attention of the "Zionist Federation" - includes an expression of support for the founding of a "national home" for the Jews in Palestine. There is great joy throughout the Jewish world, on both fronts.

November
Throughout the first half of the month, the British army advances rapidly northwards, conquering Gaza in southern Palestine, Jaffa and Tel Aviv, Lod, Ramle and the surrounding area. The next step is to take possession of Jerusalem.

An additional Jewish regiment, the 39th Battalion of Royal Fusiliers, is established in the United States, which is to participate in the battles for Palestine with the British army. Among its organizers and first recruits are David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-left.

December 9
On the eve of Chanukah, the British army enters Jerusalem. It meets no resistance as the Turks have secretly left the city.

December 11
The formal date of the conquest of Jerusalem. General Allenby enters the city victoriously. Upon reaching Jaffa Gate, he dismounts from his horse and enters the Holy City on foot. Four hundred years of Turkish rule have come to an end.

December 16
In Damascus, the Turks hang the two NILI members they are holding - Na'aman Belkind and Joseph Lishansky.

1918

January 2-3
Yishuv representatives from the territory conquered by the British assemble for a founding meeting of what will later be called the Elected Assembly (Asefat haNivharim).

March 1
The 38th Battalion of the Jewish Legion arrives in England from Egypt. It trains for battle on the front line in Palestine.

April 1
A Zionist Commission arrives in Palestine, consisting of senior Zionist representatives, which has received British approval to operate in Palestine. At its head is Chaim Weizmann.

June 4
Weizmann meets with Emir Feisal in south Transjordan - one of the heads of the Arab Rebellion against the Turks and a British ally - to discuss cooperation between the Jewish and Arab national movements.

June 9
The 38th Battalion positions itself on the front line in the area of Samaria.

June 18
The British approve the establishment of an additional battalion - the 40th Battalion of Royal Fusiliers - in the framework of the Jewish Legion, a regiment of the British army. Volunteers are to be recruited from Palestine.

July 24
A cornerstone laying ceremony is held for the Hebrew University at Mount Scopus in Jerusalem, with the participation of Dr. Chaim Weizmann and General Allenby.

August 20
A delegation of doctors and nurses from the Hadassah Organization of America arrives in Eretz Israel together with large amounts of medical equipment. It has come to help Yishuv members who need medical attention as a result of World War I. In late August, the 39th Battalion, that was recruited in the United States, arrives in Egypt en route to Palestine.

September 19
The great British attack to rout the Turkish army from Palestine and neighboring countries begins. Within 11 days the entire area is conquered - between south Samaria and Damascus, as well as Transjordan. Soldiers of the 38th and 39th Battalions of the Jewish Legion participate in the battles.

October 8
The Habima Theater is established in Moscow, and begins to operate in Palestine from 1931. In 1958 it is awarded the status of "national theater."

October 31
Turkey surrenders. The war in the Middle East comes to an end.

November 11
World War I ends on the European front. Germany and Austria-Hungary surrender.

Quote from: "uroko"Lots of good stuff there - I just skimmed over it, but a wealth of information.

Rurik was the great-grandfather of Vladimir I, through whose marriage to Anna Porphorygenita he became the spicket through which royal Khazar and Byzantine blood flowed into the royal houses of Europe.  Kind of strange, but that's par for the course - the Varangians attacked Byzantium yet the Varangian Guards became the body-guards of the Byzantine Emperors starting with Basil II, a close descendant of Melissena and hence part-Khazar.  I'm used to it though, allies turning into enemies and back again over generations is par for the course - I try to just keep my eye on the blood-lines.

Coincidentally, I'm currently working on a post about Vladimir, or should I say, the crest of the Vlad family which is a single silver Magen David  on a blue background, evoking not only the Israeli flag but also the color scheme of Rangabe.   Of course, the Magen David is a pagan symbol - the family of Vlad (as well as a host of other important families such as Payen, the leader of the first Templars Hughes de Payen (the 'Pagan') being one) adopted it long before it became a symbol of Judaism.  The jewish people have been conned, and a pagan symbol foisted on them while Kabbalah was incorporated into the religion as a "sect" - despite the fact that Kabbalah and what it really is about is what Judaism was a departure from from the beginning.  Kabbalah is dualistic - and our leaders aren't Jewish OR Christian - they are, as Eustice Mullins pointed out correctly, Canaanites.  They gain refuge in the dualistic justification of the murder of innocents to further their goals - Order out of Chaos.  

There's a guy in Texas who is way over my head, but a true genius with regard to untangling the myths and the roots of the elite.   He has an online book titled 'Tracking Ladon God and the Hebrew Rose' (which is as explosive as it is dense and difficult to follow).   But for the brave, I recommend it, despite the fact that I don't share "John"'s religious leadings.

http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm (http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm)

By the way, in my movie there are a couple of little mistakes which I need to fix - when Roger I returned to Adelaide's grave the skull was found below the pelvis and the femur bones crossed - reinforcing the Chi-Rho 're-birth' aspect of the myth.  The remains of some Templar Knights show femur bones crossed like this.  

Cheers

Only If you can believe any of the beyond the 15th century. I have already shown quite clearly that Khazar propaganda was created and conveniently surfaced when they tried to gain support for a jewish homoland. just like the dead sea scrolls

th 6kings aka VI kings is important to the story.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5028 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5028)

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4964 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4964)

and many more listed here

viewforum.php?f=42 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42)

@uroko

ok just made it through all 10 videos.
I would be careful on the Historical timeline

the info on normans or north man if you will is interesting.

According to Fomenko, William I Normandy is actually a reflection of Byzantine ruler Theodore I Lascris

anyway much of what was stated about templars and vikings and normans is most likely much later in history, but most likely after 1453 and the fall of constantinople aka Jerusalem.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/pc/pc04.htm#page_11 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/pc/pc04.htm#page_11)

Quotewhen it was carried over from England to the continent; and here, it is to be particularly remarked, that all our Brethren abroad profess to have received the Mystery of Free Masonry from Britain. This is surely a puzzle in the history; and we must leave it to others to reconcile this with the repeated assertions in Anderson's book of Constitutions, "That the Fraternity existed all over the world," and the numberless examples which he adduces of its exertions in other countries; nay, with his repeated assertions, "that it frequently was near perishing in Britain, and that our Princes were obliged to send to France and other countries, for leading men, to restore it to its former energy among us." We shall find by and by that this is not a point of mere historical curiosity, but that much hinges on it.

QuoteIn the mean time, let us just remember, that the plain tale of Brotherly love had been polished up to protestations of universal benevolence, and had taken place of loyalty and attachment to the unfortunate Family of Stuart, which was now totally forgotten in the English Lodges. The Revolution had taken place, and King James, with many of his most zealous adherents, had taken refuge in France.

QuoteBut they took Free Masonry with them to the continent, where it was immediately received by the French, and was cultivated with great zeal in a manner suited to the taste and habits of that highly polished people. The Lodges in France naturally became the rendezvous of the adherents to their banished King, and the means of carrying on a correspondence with their friends in England. At this time also the Jesuits took a more active hand in Free Masonry than ever. They insinuated themselves into the English Lodges, where they were caressed by the Catholics, who panted after the re-establishment of their faith, and tolerated by the Protestant royalists, who thought no concession too great a compensation for their services. At this time changes were made in some of the masonic symbols, particularly in the tracing of the Lodge, which bear evident marks of Jesuitical interference.

QuoteA lion, wounded by an arrow, and escaped from the stake to which he had been bound, with the broken rope still about his neck, is represented lying at the mouth of a cave, and occupied with mathematical instruments which are lying near him. A broken crown lies at the foot of the stake.

THE LION WOUNDED.

A Man, who was very skilful with his bow, went up into the forest to hunt. At his approach, there was a great consternation and rout among the wild beasts, the Lion alone showing any determination to fight. "Stop," said the Archer to him, "and await my messenger, who has somewhat to say to you." With that, he sent an arrow after the Lion, and wounded him in the side. The Lion, smarting with anguish, fled into the depths of the forest; but a Fox, seeing him run, bade him take courage, and face his enemy. "No," said the Lion, "you will not persuade me to that; for if the messenger he sends is so sharp, what must be the power of him who sends it?"

MORAL.

It is better to yield to a superior force than foolishly brave its power.

(http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/weir-favourite/weir-favourite-01-h-dir/images/i007.jpg)

but don't worry the lion king will return

@ tab,

Thank you, that's a great time-line you put together.  

Yes, I agree with you, WWI was carried off for multiple reasons - securing Palestine for Zionist settlement, keeping control of oil within the Rockefeller/Rothschild monopolies, and to justify the first moves toward global governance.  I'm trying to keep the movie flowing and to explain everything all at once becomes problematic and distracting, I find.   When I get to WWII (which, apart from money-trust funding of the Nazis, I am only going to address briefly), I'll point out that WWII was fought in large part to finish the jobs left undone after WWI - the League of Nations failed and Jewish immigration to Palestine was paultry.  WWII fixed all that, resulting in the UN, World Bank etc., and Jewish immigration to Palestine increased markedly.  

It's interesting you mentioned 6-kings / VI-kings.  I once entertained the notion that VI-king could actually be a reference to the 6 Hyksos kings of Egypt ... but discarded the idea as a coincidence, particularly because the Norse didn't call themselves that.   But since I have become aware of the possibility that the proto-Vikings migrated to Troad from Egypt, it doesn't seem so crazy to me anymore.

@ JohnSavage, I'm not quite sure what you mean I should be careful about the timeline - my dates for the Norman invasion of Normandy to the launching of the 1st crusade seem to me to be fairly well accepted - I'll check again for mistakes.   I have difficulty lending much credence to Fomenko's ideas, so many sources agree on the year of Wiiliam's invasion of England and so my family trees trace back to it - prior to Hastings, yes, things get fuzzier.  Regardless, interesting stuff, I'll keep reading.

Quote from: "uroko"@ tab,

Thank you, that's a great time-line you put together.  

Yes, I agree with you, WWI was carried off for multiple reasons - securing Palestine for Zionist settlement, keeping control of oil within the Rockefeller/Rothschild monopolies, and to justify the first moves toward global governance.  I'm trying to keep the movie flowing and to explain everything all at once becomes problematic and distracting, I find.   When I get to WWII (which, apart from money-trust funding of the Nazis, I am only going to address briefly), I'll point out that WWII was fought in large part to finish the jobs left undone after WWI - the League of Nations failed and Jewish immigration to Palestine was paultry.  WWII fixed all that, resulting in the UN, World Bank etc., and Jewish immigration to Palestine increased markedly.  

It's interesting you mentioned 6-kings / VI-kings.  I once entertained the notion that VI-king could actually be a reference to the 6 Hyksos kings of Egypt ... but discarded the idea as a coincidence, particularly because the Norse didn't call themselves that.   But since I have become aware of the possibility that the proto-Vikings migrated to Troad from Egypt, it doesn't seem so crazy to me anymore.

@ JohnSavage, I'm not quite sure what you mean I should be careful about the timeline - my dates for the Norman invasion of Normandy to the launching of the 1st crusade seem to me to be fairly well accepted - I'll check again for mistakes.   I have difficulty lending much credence to Fomenko's ideas, so many sources agree on the year of Wiiliam's invasion of England and so my family trees trace back to it - prior to Hastings, yes, things get fuzzier.  Regardless, interesting stuff, I'll keep reading.

Howdy

The key word is accepted.
Most history was created in the 15th and 16th century and later. Universal time and dates was created in 16th century and was not fully accepted everywhere until 19th century.

as you may be aware, they say history repeats, and for good reason. your 6 kings in Egypt is most likely a reflection of a time closer to our own.

i would suggest you check the sources carefully.

you will find

no dates as we know them
not original document
or it's a story that one guy heard from another guy who heard it from another guy and so on.
After Constantinople fell, their dukes, governers, tsars and guardians of the roman empire needed to provide a long history of ruling to justify their rule.

books to peruse

http://deathflag.com/deathflag/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=717 (http://deathflag.com/deathflag/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=717)

cheers

Uroko, just wait around for the other shoe of John's to drop; his unsupported, unsubstantiated, fly in the face of empirical evidence idea that "Iron" and the forging of Iron was also of recent history.  You see, Uroko, since Iron wasn't around until rather recent history it was impossible for horses, who require horseshoes for long journeys etc., to have allowed, say, the Mongolian hordes to invade Europe.  Therefore, history is a lie, the dates are all wrong and you were obviously not related to anyone in the battle of Hastings.  Simple, you were lied to. :D

Quote from: "Wimpy"Uroko, just wait around for the other shoe of John's to drop; his unsupported, unsubstantiated, fly in the face of empirical evidence idea that "Iron" and the forging of Iron was also of recent history.  You see, Uroko, since Iron wasn't around until rather recent history it was impossible for horses, who require horseshoes for long journeys etc., to have allowed, say, the Mongolian hordes to invade Europe.  Therefore, history is a lie, the dates are all wrong and you were obviously not related to anyone in the battle of Hastings.  Simple, you were lied to. :D

Thanks Wimpy

I'm not forcing anyone to believe what I believe. You are more then entitled to believe in fairy tales. But if you put the time in and research you would see my position is not far fetched and that evidence does exist. but like i said believe in empirical evidence or fairy tales it's all  up to you. Uroko is a big boy and he can reach his on conclusions.

Thanks, great stuff.

John Savage, I am aware that there are true and literal documents of events in past recorded history and that there are complete fabrications, allegories, fairy tales and the intentional destruction of history.  I just can't wrap my tiny brain around proffered theories that are based on defective syllogism.  Besides, to whom does this theory benefit and what is the ultimate agenda?  

Uroko has diligently produced a well researched series of videos touching on a broad historical period.  Your 'theories' serve to pointedly undermine his entire thesis.  If I were to take a position on his presentation versus your theory my conclusion would be 99.99% in Uroko's favor.  Call me biased or delusional but 'I yam what I yam,...and I can't stands no more'.  Borrowed that from my friend Popeye.

I like you guys, you are fun.

To John, I am WAY open to a reinterpretation of the history we have been taught and what is written in our "scholarly" accounts.  My whole video is in fact an attempt to do just that.   I'm not sure if I'm ready to accept the radical theories of Fomenko, but I have been reading up on what he proposes, his arguments, and arguments against it.   I'm always open to new ideas, for heaven's sake this sort of information, including much of what is in Uroko, is not easily assembled, nor easy to separate from the disinformation which has been woven into the narrative of history for generations if not centuries.  

Secondly, I am constantly getting more knowledgable about certain details, and already I want to go back and re-word little things - my equating the Magyars with the Huns for example.  They were closely related, they were allied, yes, Hungarian myth has them as descended from twins Hunor and Magor ... but they were not one and the same.   Scholars reject the notion that Hungary was named for the Huns - according to them Hungary was named for "10 tribes", On-ghur.   But did the Hun name also derive from On-ghur, making it a moot point???  I suspect yes, but I can't back it up.  What's the truth?  No one knows - scholars simply continue to debate it.  Should I leave that bit out of my flick?   It would leave a hole, making the connections harder to grasp for the un-initiated.   Maybe simple and controversial is the best way to go - it entices people to debate the conclusions, hence get involved in the discussion.  But is that being dishonest?

Hehe.  

Whatever, I'm working on part 11 right now.   I'll keep trying to educate myself, and hopefully revisit what I have done in the future and tighten it up.  For now, at least it's far closer to the truth than what the media holds as the foundation of our world, and/or what our educational system shamelessly teaches our kids with our tax dollars.

Quote from: "uroko"I like you guys, you are fun.

To John, I am WAY open to a reinterpretation of the history we have been taught and what is written in our "scholarly" accounts.  My whole video is in fact an attempt to do just that.   I'm not sure if I'm ready to accept the radical theories of Fomenko, but I have been reading up on what he proposes, his arguments, and arguments against it.   I'm always open to new ideas, for heaven's sake this sort of information, including much of what is in Uroko, is not easily assembled, nor easy to separate from the disinformation which has been woven into the narrative of history for generations if not centuries.  

Secondly, I am constantly getting more knowledgable about certain details, and already I want to go back and re-word little things - my equating the Magyars with the Huns for example.  They were closely related, they were allied, yes, Hungarian myth has them as descended from twins Hunor and Magor ... but they were not one and the same.   Scholars reject the notion that Hungary was named for the Huns - according to them Hungary was named for "10 tribes", On-ghur.   But did the Hun name also derive from On-ghur, making it a moot point???  I suspect yes, but I can't back it up.  What's the truth?  No one knows - scholars simply continue to debate it.  Should I leave that bit out of my flick?   It would leave a hole, making the connections harder to grasp for the un-initiated.   Maybe simple and controversial is the best way to go - it entices people to debate the conclusions, hence get involved in the discussion.  But is that being dishonest?

Hehe.  

Whatever, I'm working on part 11 right now.   I'll keep trying to educate myself, and hopefully revisit what I have done in the future and tighten it up.  For now, at least it's far closer to the truth than what the media holds as the foundation of our world, and/or what our educational system shamelessly teaches our kids with our tax dollars.

Howdy again

Well, if you come across something that can not be backed up, just say so, or say allegedly or according to etc.. just caveat it.

Don't accept anything Fomenko says, just try to prove what he states as wrong.

I not sure what sources you are using for hungarians and magyars etc.. but when I looked into it they all went back to arabic writers as sources.

you might recall the movie the 13th warrior which was based on such a writers work.

anyway when i dug into the Arabic writers, what i found were allegedly 13th to 16th century documents that referenced someone writing in 6 or 5th century or similar cases.

and many of the Arabic writers had never actually been to the areas that they were writing about all third party accounts.

however, I did discover a similar tale closer to our time with regards to the cossacks. specifically around the alleged 1453 fall of Constantinople

as from this painters rendition
http://robertarood.files.wordpress.com/ ... sacks1.jpg (http://robertarood.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/cossacks1.jpg)

the info you are delivering may be true, even if the history has be falsified to back it up. for example all the bastards may be related and have intermarried clans and the coat of arms may reflect that, but the time period may be off. that's all I am saying really

from the builders

QuoteHistory, like a mirage, lifts only a part of the past into view, leaving much that we should like to know in oblivion. At this distance the Middle Ages wear an aspect of smooth uniformity of faith and opinion, but that is only one of the many illusions of time by which we are deceived. What looks like uniformity was only conformity, and underneath its surface there was almost as much variety of thought as there is today, albeit not so freely expressed. Science itself, as well as religious ideas deemed heretical, sought seclusion; but the human mind was alive and active none the less, and a great secret Order like Masonry, enjoying the protection of the Church, yet independent of it, invited freedom of thought and faith. 1 The Masons, by the very nature of their art, came into contact with all classes of men, and they had opportunities to know the defects of the Church.

QuoteWhile, as an order, the Comacine Masters served the Church as builders, the creed required for admission to their fraternity was never narrow, and, as we shall see, it became every year broader. Unless this fact be kept in mind, the influence of the Church upon Masonry, which no one seeks to minify, may easily be exaggerated. Not until cathedral building began to decline by reason of the impoverishment of the nations by long wars, the dissolution of the monasteries, and the advent of Puritanism, did the Church greatly influence the order; and not even then to the extent of diverting it from its original and unique mission. Other influences were at work betimes, such as the persecution of the Knights Templars and the tragic martyrdom of De Molai, making themselves felt, 1 and Masonry began to be suspected of harboring heresy. So tangled were the tendencies of that period that they are not easily followed, but the fact emerges that Masonry rapidly broadened until its final break with the Church.

i don't know if you had the chance to review the info under the research area for the arabic writers

but I found this of interest

http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/history/h_hordee.html (http://www.kcn.ru/tat_en/history/h_hordee.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayeux_Tapestry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayeux_Tapestry)

QuoteThe Bayeux Tapestry is annotated in Latin

"Latin was recreated by Scaliger and his Papa allegedly"

a comparison of the Latin might give you an idea of when it was created as either before or after the switch from Vulgar Latin to the beautified version. The fact that I see vowels may indicate a version closer to our time.

QuoteThe earliest known written reference to the tapestry is a 1476 inventory of Bayeux Cathedral, but its origins have been the subject of much speculation and controversy.

"The accepted Timeline was created sometime in the 1500's created by Scaliger and Petavius by the church adopted the Gregorian calendar which was not fully accepted world wide until 19th century."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tapes ... yeux10.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tapestry_of_bayeux10.jpg)

Halley's Comet? how did they determine that?  could have been any comet or shooting star really

may be a good indicator as to time, if other astrological indicators are present

also keep in mind that there was another Willy that invaded England - because History repeats

I assume the other source for Hastings Battle is the Anglo Saxon Chronicle?

what other sources does the hastings battle come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle)

any other sources related to the Battle of Hastings?

According to Fomenko

 5.15. William I the Conqueror and  Hastings  battle  in  1066
          A.D. The fourth crusade in 1204 A.D.

         5.15.1. Two well-known wars in England and Byzantine
                 empire have the same origin
         5.15.2. English version of William the Conqueror story
         5.15.3. Byzantine version of the Constantinople's
                 conqueror
         5.15.4. A list of correspondences between events from
                 Byzantine and English chronicles

 2.3.5. Epoch from 1040 to 1066.
        Epoch of the Old Anglo-Saxon dynasty and it's fall

     The reign of Edward "The Confessor" finished in  1066  A.D.,
which is a well-known date  in  English  history.  In  that  year
Edward died and after that England was occupied by  Normans  with
their leader William I Conqueror the Bastard. In 1066 William the
Conqueror defeated English-Saxon king Harold in  Hastings  battle
and as a result became an English king  himself.  Period  of  his
reign was 1066-1087. This well-known date  (1066  A.D.)  is  also
represented in the Fig.1.

The commentary to the dynastic stream of  English  history.
After the death of Edward "The Confessor" a new  king  Harold  II
"Godwinson" took the throne. He ruled only 1 year and was  killed
in 1066 in the battle near Hastings. From the other  hand  it  is
known ([7],p.343) that in reality he got a great political  power
in 1054 when Edward was alive. But the English chronicles  placed
just before the rule of Edward "The Confessor" one  more  "short"
(i.e. with a short  rule)  Harold,  namely  Harold  I  "Harefoot"
(1036-1039) who ruled only 3 years.  It  is  possible  that  this
Harold I is simply the reflection of Harold II

21. "Doubled Harold", i.e.        21. Isaac II Angelus 1185-1195,
Harold I Danish (1036-1039) and   then he lost the power and
then Harold II (1066 year).       appeared on Byzantine throne
Harold II ruled only 9 months.    again in 1203 (second time). He
It is clear that this "doubled    ruled no more than 1 year and
Harold" is the reflection of      finally lost the power in 1204,
Byzantine"doubled Isaac Angelus", after the conquest of Constanti-
who ruled two times. His second   nople by crusaders. Thus, his
rule was short: less than 1 year  second rule was no more than 1
                                  year

 5.15. William I the Conqueror and Hastings battle in 1066 A.D.
                 The fourth crusade in 1204 A.D.

       5.15.1. Two well-known wars in England and Byzantine
                   Empire have the same origin

     Because luck of space, we  have  listed  above  only  a  few
"identification of events" between English and Byzantine history.
But it is impossible to finish the paper without  mentioning  one
more interesting parallel (identification):

     the English war of William I the Conqueror (about 1066  A.D.
     in traditional chronology) is the reflection  of  the   4th
     Byzantine crusade (about 1204 A.D.).

     We  describe  this  parallel  very  briefly  and  hope  that
statisticians and historians can continue this work.
     As we saw above in  the  Fig.1  (representing  the  dynastic
parallel between English and Byzantine history), the epoch of 4th
crusade 1204 A.D. is statistically identified exactly with  epoch
of William I.

5.15.2. English version of William the Conqueror story

     Briefly speaking,  the  classical  history  of  William  (in
traditional version) is as follows (see, for example, [7],p.343).
     His full name is :

       duke William I of Normandy, the Bastard, Conqueror,

     See ([2],p.197; or [7]).
     Edward "The Confessor" died in 1066 A.D. without  sons.  One
of his dukes Harold II  "Godwinson",  king  of  Norway,  king  of
English; (see [2],p.196,197), was extremely  powerful,  took  the
kingdom and nobody  objected  (all  others  were  agreed  to  see
Harold as new king). But after some  time  appeared  William  the
Bastard, duke of  Normandy  and  started  to  claim  the  throne.
William said that Edward fixed him as  his  successor  (suggested
the throne). William addressed to Roman  pope  and  succeeded  in
attraction of the pope on his side. Then William sent ambassadors
in Germany and France asking for a help and support. As a result,
William collected "a great army  consisting  of  adventurers  who
came from France, Flandria, Bretan, Aquitaine, Burgundy, Apulia,
Sicily... They collected for the robbery of England" ([7],p.343).
William (Wilhelm) organized the large  fleet  for  invasion  into
England. It is interesting that in Baye there  exists  the large
ancient carpet (70 meters long and 50 centimeters wide)  of  11th
century, representing the fleet of William Conqueror. This carpet
contains about 1255 images of different persons and objects.
     While William waited the fair wind, the Norwegians landed in
the mouth of Humber river under leadership of Tostig (brother  of
Harold). Harold went to the  enemies  and  defeated  Tostig  near
York. But at the same day on  a  free  coast  the  huge  army  of
Normans was landed (near  Pevensey).  In  spite  of  his  wounds,
Harold turned fast his army in  back  direction.  He  hurried  to
started the battle without waiting the reinforcement. The violent
battle was happened near Hastings. Harold army was  defeated  and
he was killed. "This victory was one of the most important in the
history. The whole England was  conquered  by  duke  of  Normandy
(William - Auth.) who was crowned in London" ([7],p.344).
     The church anointment  transformed  William  into  real  and
legitimate king. He begins the terror, many people were  declared
as traitors, the landed property was  confiscated.  The  reaction
was immediate - revolts. But William suppressed  all  riots  with
extreme cruelty. His rule is considered today as  very  important
for English history, this  is  "turning  point",  many  pages  of
chronicles are devoted to William (see, for example,  Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle). William  starts  the  Norman  dynasty  (dynasty  from
Normandy) in England. The dynasty lasts until 1154 A.D. and  then
is replaced by new Anjou dynasty.

        5.15.3. Byzantine version of the Constantinople's
                             conquest

     Let us recall now the traditional version of this  important
event following, for example, to [11]. The 4th crusade  1202-1204
A.D. was started with the call of Roman  pope  Innocent  II.  The
campaign was finished  by  the  conquest  of  Constantinople  and
complete change of ruling dynasty in Byzantine empire. The  forth
crusade is considered today as one of the most  important  events
in European  history.  There  are  many  survived  documents  and
literary  sources  about  this  crusade,  which   were   written,
allegedly, by the direct participants of crusade (see below).
     Crusaders asked Venice to give them the fleet. And very soon
the huge fleet with army came to the Constantinople. "The  ground
was the appeal of Byzantine prince Alexey to the pope and to  the
German emperor with asking the help. Alexey was the  son  of  the
Byzantine emperor Isaac II the Angelus, who was dethroned in 1195
A.D." ([11],p.209). Crusaders were supported by feudals of France
and German empire. Roman pope also helped to crusaders. From  the
other hand he  "forbid"  them  (but  only  verbal)  to  harm  the
Christian regions. "Thus, all powerful political parties  of  the
medieval Europe pushed the crusaders to the conquest of Byzantine
empire" ([11],p.209).
     It was created the special  Council  consisting  of  several
noble  leaders.  The  formal  leader  of  crusade  was   Boniface
Monferratio.  But  the  head  of  the  Council  of  crusade was
well-known   marshal   Geoffroy   de   Villehardouin.   He    was
"distinguished and well-known politician of crusade, he took part
in all important diplomatic  actions"  ([15],p.125).  When  today
somebody speaks about 4th crusade, then the first person which is
immediately mentioned, is Villehardouin. He is supposed today  as
the   author   of   well-known   chronicle   "La   Conqueste   de
Constantinople" [26] (see details in  [25]).  The  conjecture  is
that he dictated these chronicle in the end of his life.
     Crusaders besieged  the  Constantinople  in  1204  A.D.  and
restored on the throne the emperor  Isaac  II  the  Angelus.  But
cannot pay them the whole amount of money which he  promised  for
their support. Enraged crusaders captured  the  capital  in  1204
A.D. and violently plundered the town. The large part of the city
was burned, the famous temple of Saint Sofia was  also  plundered
and its great treasures were  disappeared  (according  to  legend
were transported somewhere).
     Crusaders founded in Constantinople the new  state  -  Latin
empire (1204-1261). Thus, the last period  of  Byzantine  history
began in 1204 A.D. This epoch was named above as Byzantine empire
No. 3. The new Greek (Byzantine) dynasty starts from  Theodore  I
Lascaris (1204-1222). His coming to the power is a direct  result
of 4th crusade, of the war and conquest of Constantinople.


feel free to peruse more

http://lib.ru/FOMENKOAT/engltr.txt (http://lib.ru/FOMENKOAT/engltr.txt)

interesting but no provable

 

QuoteIt is likely that English name Tudor (royal family that ruled
England 1485-1603) is the variant of Byzantine name Theodore.

that's interesting

QuoteCommentary. By the way, the medieval sources of 4th  crusade
constantly repeat that it was "march on the Babylon" ([25],p.161)
(!). But,  according  to  conjecture  of  traditional  historians
(belonging to the Scaliger's chronological school),  the  Babylon
was completely destroyed many hundreds  years  ago  and  was  not
restored after this fall. Contradiction! The modern  commentators
try to find "the solution" (of this unpleasant  problem)  in  the
following way: "Here is meant (by the name of  Babylon  -  Auth.)
the Egyptian town Cairo, which was called in the West as Babylon"
([25],p.161).

Also your wizard of oz section is interesting

info that I had come across.

The ruby slippers were originally Silver in the book

and a symbol of the US populist movement

US farmers wanted to move away from Rothschild Gold back money to a silver backed money

their cowardly lion William Jennings Bryan who sold them out in the end

in Part 9

Although part of the netherlands was under spanish control, I believe that they flew the imperial coat of arms the double headed eagle.

or Roman empire if you will. The proxy army of the Vatican

hapsburg dynasty

also interesting note

Romanov means new romans

also the inquisition came on the heals of the Catholic reformation.

also I believe that the Vatican just released documents showing that they investigated the templars and found them not to be heretics.

but who is to say when these docs were created or to what end.

http://boingboing.net/2007/10/12/vatica ... -knig.html (http://boingboing.net/2007/10/12/vatican-publish-knig.html)

QuoteThe publishing house said the new book includes the "Parchment of Chinon," a 1308 decision by (Pope) Clement (V) to save the Templars and their order. The document was misplaced for centuries in the archives and found again by researchers in 2001.

According to the Vatican archives Web site, the parchment shows that Clement absolved the Templar leaders of the heresy charge, though he did recognize they were guilty of immorality, and he planned to reform the order.

However, pressured by Philip, Clement later reversed his decision and suppressed the order in 1312.

Also your holy land is an 1800's creation of where the holy land was, it was actually Constantinople from my research. and thus placing Israel in Palestine is the cruelest of jokes and was done more so for geopolitical reasons.

was wondering about the sources for the Rolf the Ganger guy

I have a 12th century French Poet
who wrote
Chronique des ducs de Normandie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beno%C3%AE ... inte-Maure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beno%C3%AEt_de_Sainte-Maure)

Fomenko

suggests that norman may be roman

some issues

almost 400 to 500 years after the fact
he writes in old french.

Chronique des ducs de Normandie

Another major work, by a Benoît, probably identical to Benoît de Sainte-Maure, is a lengthy[5] verse Chronique des ducs de Normandie. Its manuscript at Tours, dating to 1180-1200, is probably the oldest surviving text in Old French transcribed on the Continent.[6] The standard edition is by Carin Fahlin, (Uppsala) 3 vols. 1951-5x.

can't find scan of original text

this same poet writes about The Romance of Troy

Fomenko contends that the story of troy is really about the Fall of Constantinople

Chapter 9

Captain Morgan may hold other meanings as well

http://www.padfield.com/1993/william-morgan/ (http://www.padfield.com/1993/william-morgan/)

chapter 9

if indeed Khazars adopted Judaism, they did not adopt circumcision or so say Historians

from a main english source on the Khazar info

http://www.archive.org/stream/historyof ... 6/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofeastern00buryiala#page/406/mode/2up)

and the emperor's daughter goes to live in a tent instead of the palace

chapter 9

founders of skull and bones

http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_H ... aled.shtml (http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/New-Orleans-Mardi-Gras-Mystick-Krewe-of-Comus-Secrets-Revealed.shtml)

it would be nice to get the deathbed recordings

the red shield of the Rothschild is the double headed eagle or the imperial coat of arms. That is very interesting

later adopting the lion and the unicorn

(http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2005/08aug/redshield03.jpg)

http://www.redicecreations.com/specialr ... hield.html (http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2005/08aug/redshield.html)

http://urokomovie.com/huns.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/huns.shtml)

The Huns

Attila the Hun most likely a reflection of 14th century invasion or later

Khan Han Hun

Han in Chinese may mean outsiders or so I have read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html)

what you might be experiencing is the same story told of different characters at different times aka history repeating because it was created  in 15th and 16th century.

Ghengas Khan is a freemasonic story

The Son of a widow, sometime brothers, sometimes twins, sometimes forming two tribes, sometime one brother kills the other, causing a split [cain and able] eventually uniting his people or the many waring tribes into a powerful empire or whatever.

some sons of the widow
Ghengas Khan
Alexander the great
King Arthur
etc ...

just use the Osiris horus and isis story as a template

this book might be useful

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=RxA ... &q&f=false (http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=RxAUXqlZxq0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=who+was+hiram+abiff&source=bl&ots=ZtMLwea2B_&sig=aHYOjjSyg470Mce8uEJKVoccmjE&hl=en&ei=sf3HS6CaD5KKswOUs4CYCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

or just google who was hiram abiff

which is suspect of being coded word

abrham  or nimrod etc...

http://urokomovie.com/viking_origins.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/viking_origins.shtml)

consider phoenicians as venetian

"consider phoenicians as venetian"

For sure - I believe that.

Regarding Khazars, it is debated how much of the kingdom converted, or if only the ruling Kagans converted.   I once imagined that, immigrant refugees of Israel (assumedly weighted toward the pagan northern tribes like Dan and Naphtali) somehow found their way into the ruling class of Khazaria - just a hunch, backed up really only by the fact that the name Cohen, linked legitimately or not to Levi, appears to derive from Kagan.  This combined with the number of royal Armenians, Kagans and Bagratids in the family trees of the Eastern Emperors a thousand years ago, I assumed the merging of Khazar blood with that of the royal houses of Europe which Melissena's marriage to Inger set off was a merging of an Egypt/Israelite branch (Eastern) with a Viking/Frank i.e. Trojan branch.   Yes, I know this is completely wrong-headed, I was ignorant of many things back then.   Turns out the Viking/Frank i.e. Trojan branch WAS (as I now view it) the Egyptian side of the tree - and if the eastern of "Khazar" branch can be said to have added anything new, it would be the Mesopotamian-rooted blood which did NOT arrive via Egypt, along with a CHINESE element.  I say Chinese and not Mongolian because what I'm talking about is the blood of Chinese emperors which mixed with the nomadic (Turkic) tribes while they were in Mongolia.   Not only were the Huns closely related to (i.e. their Kings allegedly trace back to) the Xiongnu (as I and many others believe) who in turn intermarried to some degree with the Han Chinese (and I don't believe it to be coincidence that Hun and Han terms as similar), but the Khazar kings may well trace back to China as well, through the Xi-Wei.  

I know genealogy sites are to be taken with a big grain of salt, but I like this one and with that caveat,

The first page shows Ch'ang lo of the Xi-Wei (possibly) married to Tumen Khan of the Turks, siring a Khazar Kagan of the 6th century.   The second page shows a more probable (or additional) husband of hers being listed as Xak'an, whose ancestry is unknown, also resulting in Kagans ... T'ung Yabghu Ziebal, and other possible children are also Khans or Kagans.  

http://fabpedigree.com/s096/f830216.htm (http://fabpedigree.com/s096/f830216.htm)
http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f037122.htm (http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f037122.htm)

Presently I'm looking for some confirmation of this apparently significant point in genealogical time, for Turks and Khazar Kagans and Huns and forks which point to China all seem to be part of the same mixing pot.  I did find a list of Turkish Kings in which some names on the above genealogy links show up -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6921532/KINGS ... scentLines (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6921532/KINGS-OF-TURKS-TURKISH-ROYALTY-DescentLines)

On page 3 I find Kholo Kagan, father of Angsu Tegin, same as the JDA website.  

I'm still poking around - I'll fire off this post as is.   Cheers

Here, on the JDA genealogy site I find Tumen Khan of the Turks being father of Kholo Khan of the Khazars - on the Turkish Kings list I find Bumen tribal chief of the Turks being father of Kholo Khan - and below it the following:

QuoteBumin, tribal chief of the Turks 545, reck'd 1st King of Turks, revolts versus the Juan-Juan empire and migrates westwards; repulsing attacks by the [H]Ephthalies [a Hunnish tribe] upon the Turks migrating through the Russian steppes; made an astonishing advance; and establishes another settlement in Turkestan, founding [another] Turkish state [the Tu-Kiu kingdom] in Central Asia, Year 552 (d553) - Chang-Lo [-Kung-Cho], dau of Xi-Wei Wen-Ti, Emperor of China [N Wei] 535-552, & wife, dau of Anahuai [Anakai], King of Juan-Juan issue:
a. Kholo [Kara Khan]
b. Kushu Mugan
c. Tapur [Taspar]

On page one I find another name found on the JDA site, Liu Tsugu.

Liu, by the way, is apparently an elite Xiongnu family name which meant dragon - something I can believe because dragon in Japanese is in fact Ryu (R-L being equivalent), and being the "On-yomi" or "On" reading of the character for dragon, indicates Chinese origin.  

On the Turkish Kings site I find the following about  Liu Tsugu:

QuoteA Turkic prince (d398), whose parents migrated and settled in China's northern Liang province along with the other Turks.

From JohnSavage -

QuoteHowdy again

Well, if you come across something that can not be backed up, just say so, or say allegedly or according to etc.. just caveat it.

Yup, you're exactly right.  And I may go back and reword that.   However it turns out that the Onogur hypothesis (Onogur=10 arrows/10 tribes?) for the origin of the name Hungary is just a theory, and even if accurate could just as easily apply to the origin of the word Hun as well in my best judgment, knowing that the Bulgar Khans descended from Hunnic Kings.

Wikipedia (for what its worth) says this - " ... the legend being that the Onogurs and Bulgars descended from princes of Kush: Hungor & Maugor."    Well, Hungarian legend says that the Huns and the Magyars (founders of Hungary)  descended from twin sons of Ménrót (thought to be Nimrod, biblical son of Cush), Hunor and Magor.   Undoubtedly th same myth, describing the Onogurs and Bulgars on the one hand and the Huns and Magyars on the other.

I couldn't find any other (confirming or primary) source for the myth of Hunor and Magor (Hungor & Maugor) being shared by the Bulgars and Onogurs.  I did find this -  

Quote... [Bulgars:] Regarded as direct descendants of the Sumerians and the Scythians, the myth of their origins roughly reproduces the legends of the Magyars.
The Bulgars were, or became, the main component of a larger ethnos known as Hunogurs or Onogurs, and were closely related to the Khazars. There is also a controversy about the original Bulgars being Huns or not; nevertheless, if they were not, and however closely related to them, they joined the Huns in early times and reached Europe together with them...

And sort of related - and very interesting, is this:

http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~lukacs/HUNGKANJ.htm (http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~lukacs/HUNGKANJ.htm)

The above writer is seemingly not a native English speaker, and is probably not Japanese either, for he gets his Kanji pronunciation wrong.  I found the character used to write Hungari in Japanese characters (as opposed to the much more common 'Katakana' writing style used for foreign words), it is this character:  

http://www.mahou.org/Kanji/5233/ (http://www.mahou.org/Kanji/5233/)

Which is pronounced 'Kyou' in Japanese (On-yomi) and in Mandarin the pronounciation is listed as 'Xiong'.

The standard Japanese word for Hun in Japanese is 'Fun-zoku', 'Fun' being the closest Japanese have to 'Hun' and 'zoku' meaning tribe.  However it turns out that there's another Japanese word for Hun, 'Kyoudo', using the same above character used in 'Hungary'.

The meaning of the character, turmoil, would make sense given the nomadic nature of the Xiong-nu and the grief they caused the Chinese (they built the wall to try and keep them out of China).  

So there you have a direct connection between the Hun in Hungary as written in Japanese and the Chinese word for the Huns as they knew them (Xiong-nu).    Pretty interesting.

.

Please Eric, I have some questions here if you could help me answering please,


1) Where can I find the information about the knights of William the Conqueror you were speaking of in your production because I can't found it, you know, the one with the names of  i e Astor and so on, and what do you think happened at the Titanic where John Jacob Astor IV died ?

List of Knights Accompanying William the Conqueror on his Invasion of England, 1066
http://www.three-peaks.net/1066.htm

John Jacob Astor IV

(http://www.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2006/18/4390_113773142750.jpg)

John Jacob Astor IV (July 13, 1864 – April 15, 1912) was an American millionaire businessman, real estate builder, inventor, writer, a member of the prominent Astor family, and a lieutenant colonel in the Spanish-American War. He died in the sinking of the RMS Titanic.

John Jacob Astor IV was born to William Backhouse Astor, Jr. and Caroline Webster Schermerhorn Astor. John Jacob IV was the great-grandson of John Jacob Astor whose fortune, made in opium, fur trade and real estate, made the Astor family one of the wealthiest families in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacob_Astor_IV

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

2) What do you know of Timur (also known as Tamerlane) whom Christopher Marlowe wrote about, what role did he played in all that THIS PLOT ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur

Tamburlaine the Great — Part 1 & 2  by Christopher Marlowe
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/m#a410



Thx !

.
.

I find most of my info about families at houseofnames.com.

I made a mistake in my movie, I listed it as houseofnames.org ... one of the things I need to fix.
There is no list I can refer you to that lists the knights who fought at Hastings, however houseofnames provides that information if you do a search for the family.

Also, I would expect much of that information would be in the Domesday Book.

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/index.html (http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/index.html)

Here are the families I have found fought at Hastings:
Roosevelt
Clinton (Bill Clinton isn't really a Clinton btw)
Cheney
Bruce (English branch)
Russell
Astor
Peabody
Cabot
Low  (Abiel Low worked for Russell & Co. and was heavily involved in trade with China as well as the founding of Columbia University)
Lovett
Taylor
Vere (Earls of Oxford, very prominent family)
Rumsfeld
Brown
Holbrooke
Mitchell
McCloy
Bundy
Volker
Disney

Re: Titanic, it is said that J.P. Morgan had a suite booked on the Titanic and cancelled his voyage at the last minute.  Could be some funny-stuff going on there.  Needless to say, the Astors who were influential in the 19th century didn't get a seat at the table in the 20th .,. that is, they weren't involved in the setting up of the FED.

I can imagine the other guys getting together and saying, "so, are we gonna let the Astors in on this?" And deciding no, and saying, "well, John Jacob isn't gonna take that sitting down".  And you can imagine the rest, and something as audacious as the sinking of the Titanic would have put off any Astors or anyone else for that matter from complaining about not getting a piece of the FED.   The date of its sinking is pretty suspicious - 1912, a year and a half before the FED act was passed.  I can believe that they would have done something like sink the Titanic to clear a few (and Astor may not have been the only one) tycoons before their final strike, before snatching contol over American currency, but how?  How on earth did they manage to do it?  

I don't know anything about Timur (Tamerlane), except the fact that the Timurid Empire was pretty big.   Here's genealogy for him, you can poke around.  I'm guessing, looking briefly at his genealogy and from the fact that he was Muslim that he was not in the "dragon" loop.  Again, I don't know.    

http://fabpedigree.com/s044/f830491.htm (http://fabpedigree.com/s044/f830491.htm)

Also, I added an article about the Franks on my site, as well as an addendum to the Hun piece which addresses the On-ogur business.

http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml)

Cheers

Quote from: "uroko"I find most of my info about families at houseofnames.com

Well, is always good to have several sources to the core of the theories that are the base in one's research, in orden to confirm that the hypotheses are in solid base, kind of, maybe there is i e some studies at hand in some universities where they treat the matters of genealogies of the royal families of europe ?

QuoteAlso, I added an article about the Franks on my site, as well as an addendum to the Hun piece which addresses the On-ogur business.

http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml)

I found two pictures in the webpage there [ http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml) ] that had broken links, so they can't be seen, these ones

http://urokomovie.com/maps/2ndCentGermania.jpg (http://urokomovie.com/maps/2ndCentGermania.jpg)

http://urokomovie.com/crests/sutherland.gif (http://urokomovie.com/crests/sutherland.gif)



Cheers


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Quote from: "/tab"Well, is always good to have several sources to the core of the theories that are the base in one's research, in orden to confirm that the hypotheses are in solid base, kind of, maybe there is i e some studies at hand in some universities where they treat the matters of genealogies of the royal families of europe ?

Yeah, for sure.   I live in Japan though, and I'm poor.  I thought about ordering the Domesday book online, but I'm not even sure it would have that information in it.   Point well taken though ...

Fixed those links.   Thnx tab  :up:

.

Konnichi wa Eric, Kudasai, What do you know and make of the Howland's family chart ? Arigatou !


(http://www.djibnet.com/photo/1354206860_b-howland-family-chart-how-george-bush-winston-churchill-and-joseph-smith-are-related.jpg)

John Howland

Notable descendants

John and Elizabeth Howland's direct descendants include notable figures such as U.S. presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush; U.S. first ladies Edith Roosevelt and Barbara Bush;Paul Howland, Mark Howland,Anthony howland ; poets Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, and Philadelphia poet Florence Earle Coates—a 9th generation descendant and a founding member (1896) of the Society of Mayflower Descendants in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (SMDPA);[8] Mormon prophet and founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Joseph Smith, Jr. and his wife Emma Hale; Mormon leader Brigham Young; Continental Congress president Nathaniel Gorham; former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin; former Florida governor Jeb Bush; and actors/actresses Humphrey Bogart, Maude Adams, Lillian Russell and Anthony Perkins.[9][10][11] U.S. presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, and British prime minister Winston Churchill are descendants of John Howland's brothers Arthur (Nixon and Ford) and Henry (Churchill).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howland

(http://www.thehowlands.net/HowlandCrest.gif)

http://genealogy.williamsarts.us/genealogy/retrospect/index.php?m=family&id=I09210

(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~quedkr4/images/HowlandCrest.jpg)


http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~quedkr4/HowlandCoatOfArms.html


http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/howland-coat-arms.htm

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Quote from: "/tab"Konnichi wa Eric, Kudasai, What do you know and make of the Howland's family chart ? Arigatou !

Dou-itashimasite, or as I like to say, don't touch my moustache ;)

Sorry, can't enlighten you much about the Howlands - obviously yet another well-connected family.  I looked 'em up at the JDA genealogy site (no genealogy site is totally trustworthy, but it's the first one I look at) - and there are no entries for the family before the 16th century which might indicate their relative unimportance prior to that time, although houseofnames says they were in Yorkshire before the Norman invasion.  (The Bush family also traces to Yorkshire.)   I've run across other families which trace back to Yorkshire, but I honestly can't remember which.   I do find an inordinate number of very old eilte families which trace to Devonshire and other parts of Cornwall.  (King Arthur legends?   Hmmm.)  

I'm sorry, I'm really not an expert, I just follow my nose and look people up that appear in the research I happen do be doing at the time.  

The Avery family is interesting.  Many people think that the Rockefeller family emerged onto the scene out of nowhere,  his father is described as having been a snake-oil salesman.   But J.D. Rockefeller's grandfather married an Avery, and several Averys married Morgans (whereby the Morgans and the Rockefellers are related by marriage - who'd a thunk?).   John Foster Dulles also married an Avery - I think this is why you read sometimes that the Dulles brothers were cousins of the Rockefellers - I haven't found any blood connection between the Dulles' and the Rockefellers except for this marriage of John Foster to an Avery.  

Thnx for the tip on the Howlands.

Hey, I found the tree I made linking the Rockefellers to the Morgans via the Averys.   There's a Russell in there too, and what do ya know, the Averys hail from Devonshire.

http://urokomovie.com/Avery.gif (http://urokomovie.com/Avery.gif)

Uroko,

Have you had a chance to read the Synagogue of Satan by Andrew Carrington Hitchcock?

http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andr ... /index.htm (http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/Synagogue.of.Satan/index.htm)

Hey,  CrackSmokeRepublican (great handle hahah).

I listened to a little of it, which is saying I haven't gotten the jist of it.   I will try to check it out further, I am quite interested in the subject, as you can imagine.

That said, I noticed it is hosted on Daryl Bradford Smith's iamthewitness site.  That's not to say Smith and Hitchcock have anything to do with one another.   But I am suspicious of "the Jews did it" ranting figures like Smith and Eric Hufschmidt.   I am involved at another forum, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, whose core members petitioned for the black-box (FDR) data from AA flight 77 and got it - and analyzed it.  Despite the fact that the media and even predominant "truther" sites have completely ignored this analysis, it is solid proof that the US government was involved in 9/11 or the covering up of what really happened - the data, which is official data released by the NTSB and is represented as the flight data from flight 77, says unequivocally that the plane was too high to hit the Pentagon, was in a dive in conflict with the Pentagon security camera frames, and was on a course other that the official one making it impossible for the plane to have downed the light poles.   This is data from the NTSB folks - these guys stick to what they can prove and are true heroes.   Yet Eric Hufschmidt (and I think Daryl Smith as well?) attacked P4T's co-founder and head administrator for being a Zionist agent.   What a joke, what a laugh.   I know the guy.   He's a patriot and couldn't give a rat's @ss about any of this stuff, he's a pilot and knows the country was attacked from within and wants to expose the lie, period.  

Now, I wasn't the target of the attack so I can't be sure what Daryl Smith's part was or wasn't, nor do I want to attack him.   But whenever I see iamthewitness hosting something I take it with a grain of salt.   Here's the thing, this is where I'm coming from.   The dancing Israelis TRIED to get arrested.  This is part of the psy-op angle of 9/11, as well as the incident qualifying as a prime candidate for what a very smart guy in Ann Arbor Michigan regards as "open complicity" (he made a movie under that title).  The true conspirators would love all 9/11 truthers to blame it on Israel and Mossad - then they can play the anti-Semite card, which they have.   That doesn't mean Mossad wasn't involved, they clearly were.   The question is, to what extent and to what extent do the top people who planned the whole thing consider themselves Zionists?   I would say 'in spades' - but that doesn't mean they are Jewish - I imagine only some of them are.  

I believe that Eustice Mullins hit it on the head when he described the would-be-rulers-of-the-world / slash / architects of the FED, the CIA, the CFR, RIIA and other round table groups as CANAANITES.   I consider Zionism one thing, the Jewish people something else, and the return of the Jewish people to Israel meme a cover story.  I believe the Jewish people were hijacked with propoganda, just as the American people have been hijacked to hate Muslims and back a global war on terror.  It was from Daryl Smith's website that I first heard that the Rothschilds funded Theodor Hertzl and the Zionist Congress from the beginning.  That's bunk.  They were lukewarm toward Hertzl's project, Edmund Rothschild fought with him in Palestine till their deaths, and another Rothschild (Alfred or Walter, I can't remember which) when propositioned by Hertzl to support a Jewish homeland in Palestine remarked "Take Uganda" instead - that's in Hertzl's diary.   In fairness, Hertzl won the baron over, but the point is, the Rothschilds were split among themselves as to how much support to lend to Hertzl at the beginning.    Obviously they became more and more involved, and by the time of the Balfour declaration the British Foreign Secretary considered Lord Walter (who he addressed his letter to) a representative of the Zionist Congress - but it appears that was not the case from the start.   The truth may be different, but there is no evidence for it.  

I just think the approach taken by people like Daryl Smith is counterproductive, and their take on the Jewish role in world-wide conspiracy (which I do accept as fact) as too pat, too simplistic.   Furthermore it doesn't explain the role of non-Jewish entities like the major-ly Episcopalian Skull and Bones fraternity and the huge presence of their alumni in politics, banking and intelligence, or the royal lineages of England whose descendants gather at the Bohemian Grove to watch mock-sacrifice for their entertainment.   BUT, when you side-step the "jewish" angle for a second and look really hard at what I call the "dragon-roots" of all these people that have been running the world in collusion for so many centuries and find out that their roots are in the Levant, in Canaan, not only does it all begin to make more sense, it helps to explain the Jewish role.

There is one free pass I will not give to those of the Judaic faith who chose to embrace Kabbalah - I assume most of them are ignorant as to its roots and real significance.  Kabbalah and Kybele are pronounced somewhat differently, and when the spelling Cybele is used the connection is all but unrecognizable.   But the name of the Great Mother Kybele does indeed derive from Kabbalah - and is related to Sheba, Sheva (Hindu goddess) and the prefix Saba.  Saba-Zios was a Greek/Trojan cult which merged Zeus (zeus=dios=zios) with Kybele/Cybele (Saba).  Sabazios was portrayed as male and riding a horse and was allegedly the inspiration for St. George the Dragon slayer.   What's incredibly interesting is that he is also (I sincerely believe and have good reason to) the horseman on the logo of the Council on Foreign Relations, whose ring-within-rings Rhodesian structure mirrors that of the Cult of Sabazios, the word's first "mystery religion" whereby secret knowledge was privy only to an elite priesthood at the center of the cult.   I other words, if you dig, you don't see a Jewish conspiracy - you see rather clues that tie to the Ba'al cults of Canaan and the Kybele cults of Troad and Greece.

I do not deny the horrors perpetrated on the Palestinians, I do not deny a connection between Judaism and Kabbalah, and I don't deny an overbearing presence of Jewish bankers and media moguls complicent in the hijacking of liberty and the furthering of NWO goals  in America and around the world.  But there is evil within any group ... Masons aren't all evil, most of them have no clue as to what the leadership of their organization are up to - this is the genius of the "rings-within-rings" Rhodesian model, which from what G. Edward Griffin says, was adopted by Cecil Rhodes from the Freemasonic model (the ancient origin of which is actually the Cult of Sabazios, which I mentioned).  

I even attribute the perversions of Catholic priests to these cults ... the Galli priests of Rome used to get drunk in wild orgies and whack their own genitals off in homage to Attis, the consort of Kybele (the Cult of Kybele was so popular that the Romans were forced to sanction it), thereafter dressing as women.   This practice was respected because it stove to manifest the duality of pagan beliefs - in this case a union of male and female.  These same cults also sacrificed children to the gods - to Molech/Moloch, who is represented at the Bohemian Grove as a giant owl (though traditionally he/she was a bull).   Order out of Chaos, union of male and female, wars, carnage and economic crashes propagated to re-adjust societal thinking and establish the architecture of institutionalized blood-sucking in countries around the world.  

The press toward one-world-government, toward a complete loss of personal freedom is advancing rapidly.  We have to wake up, and wake up fast.   Directing blame toward the Jews is not helpful, and even Zionism is but one aspect of this entity. They would love for us to, for it plays into their hands ... and it would be one thing if that was the truth, but it is but one aspect of the truth, IMO.   The true nature of the elite who are twisting the screws is deeper and has little to do with Judaism, despite the fact that many involved are "Jewish".  I could be wrong, but so far the more I search and read the more sure I am of my (somewhat unique) point of view.  Maybe the true nature of Judaism and what 95% of Jews around the world consider the nature of Judaism are different, and the ruling elite descended from Vikings and Franks consider themselves Jews - of a type unlike the 95% of god-fearing Jews who don't have a clue as to the true meaning of the Magen David - maybe they secretly do.   Maybe we need some new words to describe people - NWO Jews, Zionist Jews, mom-n-pop-Jews trying to get by, Jews in Israel disgusted with Israel's ZIonist genocidal policies, Jews outside of Israel disgusted with Israel's ZIonist genocidal policies, Jews within and without Israel who buy into the hate propaganda like ducks to water, ultra-elite Jews who aren't Jewish, ultra-elite Jews who are ...... ???  

Sorry, I'm a bit frisky tonight - end of rant.  

 :crazy:

Thanks for giving us your position uroko, saves me trying to figure it out :)

My pleasure.

uroko,

Have you ever looked at David Livingstone's material? He has a very interesting Redice Radio interview concerning the Kabballah and how it was likely rediscovered by Crusaders-Templars (future Cathars).  I'm not a huge follower "Bloodlines" and this line of inquiry since it would require literacy or at least a written record of transmitting a "Chosen-ness", etc. across hundreds of years in periods of time where even the elites including most nobles were all but illiterate. This "record" would have to be seen, described and maintained generation after generation.   I do realize Bloodlines are worth a look though. They make interesting connections. --The CSR  :

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ro ... _Grail.htm (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Rothschild_Grail.htm)

http://www.thedyinggod.com/holygrail.html (http://www.thedyinggod.com/holygrail.html)

No, I hadn't read Livingstone - though in the back of my mind I feel like I had heard the name.  Wonderful! - thanks for the tip.  

I will say though, that I kept wanting to say "hang on there a minute".   Like when he states matter of factly that Poppa of Bavaria (the Frankish wife of Rollo the Viking, also known as Poppa of Valois) was descended from Guillaume (William) of Gelone.  I suspect that may be true, but Poppa's ancestry is very controversial and there are several theories.  I'd like to know why Livingstone is confident enough in her lineage to state that unambiguously.

I can certainly sympathize with him for blasting through all that stuff about Rabbi Makhir, Guillaume of Gellone, the Cathars and Templars etc. without trying to back up any of his controversial statements, I was forced to do much of the same thing in my movie - if you get bogged down explaining one's reason for arriving at various conclusions you'll never get a point across.  

There were a few things in there I wasn't aware of - like some of the marriages in this passage:

Quote...David [King David of Scotland, son of Margaret who I talk about in my post about Melissena on my site] married the grand-daughter of Lambert II, the brother of Godefroi de Bouillon, leader of the first crusade, and the sister of sister of William the Conqueror. Godefroi's younger brother, Eustace III, married David's sister, Mary Scots. Their daughter married Stephen I King of England, the son Adela de Normandie, the daughter of William the Conqueror. Adela's brother, Henry I King of England, married David's sister, Editha of Scotland. Their daughter, Mathilda Empress of England, married Geoffrey V, Comte d'Anjou, whose son Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine...

Also, regarding skepticism of continuous bloodlines tracing back to antiquity, I'm with you there.  There probably isn't a century in history where a royal lineage wasn't broken by some cuckold.   However it doesn't require that these blood-lines be authentic for them to be meaningful - they just have to be believed by the royal houses themselves. I see it more as a continuum culturally, strengthened by many blood-lines, which don't run in a straight line but yet diverge and reconnect over and over.  Nicholas de Vere claims that his family trace to the Mittani, who lived in the northwest Mesapotamia/northern Levant region almost 3 and a half thousand years ago.  But I'll tell you what, you and I also probably trace back to the Mittani, and the Hittites, and who knows who else, because it doesn't take more than a few dozen generations before everyone is related to everyone else ... except in the case of a ruling elite who only marry amongst themselves.  It's the degree to which there is a continuum, both familial and cultural, that it interests me.

Anyway, thanks again for the Livingstone links.

Check out this vid, hear what this John Van Hove says between 4:30 and 5:30 minutes into it ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6opD9nF ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6opD9nF1Zs&feature=related)

I have never heard of Alex Christopher's Pandora's Box - it appears to be out of print.   There's one used copy available at Amazon for 1,200 bucks.   Yes, $1,259.00 dollars!
 :crazy:

uroko, have you checked out this article?

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradf ... schild.htm (http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm)

Check out the power point slides for a great summary. You should integrate some of that into your v2 of the video.

Quote from: "uroko"Check out this vid, hear what this John Van Hove says between 4:30 and 5:30 minutes into it ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6opD9nF ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6opD9nF1Zs&feature=related)

I have never heard of Alex Christopher's Pandora's Box - it appears to be out of print.   There's one used copy available at Amazon for 1,200 bucks.   Yes, $1,259.00 dollars!
 :crazy:

Here you go:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4359351/PANDORA_S_BOX_by_Alex_Christopher_(better_OCR_edition) (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4359351/PANDORA_S_BOX_by_Alex_Christopher_(better_OCR_edition))

Here's the pdf, give it time to load and just save ;)

http://fugaziquo.com/directory/library/ ... _order.pdf (http://fugaziquo.com/directory/library/new_world_order/pandoras_box-the_ultimate_unseen_hand_behind_the_new_world_order.pdf)

Something you may want to consider  :lol:

From an interview Alex Christopher has given http://educate-yourself.org/cn/alexchri ... un96.shtml (http://educate-yourself.org/cn/alexchristopherinterview01jun96.shtml)

AC: If Phil is right, and all this hooks up to the deep underground base that he was offered the plans to build back in 1979, and that what this other man told me in private that there is a lot of human slave labor in these deep underground bases being used by these aliens, and that a lot of this slave labor is children. He said that when the children reach the point that they are unable to work any more, they are slaughtered on the spot and consumed.

DA: Consumed by who?

AC: Aliens. Again, this is not from me, but from a man that gave his life to get this information out. He worked down there for close to 20 years, and he knew everything that was going on.

DA: Hmmm. Who do these aliens eat?

AC: They specifically like young human children, that haven't been contaminated like adults. Well, there is a gentleman out giving a lot of information from a source he gets it from, and he says that there is an incredible number of children snatched in this country.

DA: Over 200,000 each year.

AC: And that these children are the main entree for dinner.

DA: How many Draconians are down there?

AC: I have heard the figure of 150,000 just in the New York area.

DA: Underneath New York?

AC: Yes. In some kind of underground base there.

DA: Interesting. Now, you've seen pictures of these things?

AC: I have seen them face to face.

Yeah, after posting that last link I found an interview with A Christopher and heard all about the aliens [sigh].

Thanx MikeWB for the link, thanx very much.  Unfortunately it's a windows doc (I'm on mac), but I'll keep looking and/or finally install some office soft for my mac.  

Cheers

Quote from: "uroko"Yeah, after posting that last link I found an interview with A Christopher and heard all about the aliens [sigh].

Thanx MikeWB for the link, thanx very much.  Unfortunately it's a windows doc (I'm on mac), but I'll keep looking and/or finally install some office soft for my mac.  

Cheers

uroko, I'm on a Mac as well. You mean a PowerPoint? You can download/buy MS Office for Mac (it's on pirate bay) or you can install free & open source Open Office or get NeoOffice (also free) https://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/ea ... wnload.php (https://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/earlyaccessdownload.php) or install iWork (also on pirate bay). Also, built-in QuickLook allows you to view PPT! That's what I use 95% of the time (iWork for when I need to edit them).

Pandora's Box more BI propaganda

Sorry, what does "BI" mean?

As for propoganda, everything is propoganda, everything is one person or group trying to convince other persons or groups of a particular point of view, and everyone colors, cherry picks and fabricates to some degree or another.   I am particularly interested in Pandora's Box because John van Hove (or whatever his name is) mentioned the bloodlines, and mentioned that the real people in charge are people you have never even heard of.   I suspect this to be true, I know that one of the most powerful families on the planet are the Veres.  I'd like to know who the others are, and if Pandoras Box does indeed identify the Veres I can attribute some credence to other information.  

Yes, I'm suspicious when I find out that a researcher claims there are aliens and reptile-people, yes, please give me a break.  But even David Icke, a nut-job in my opinion, and others do assemble some valid information (and mix it up with a lot of bunk IMO - the trick is learning how to separate the two - and that involves using common sense and numerous sources).   Michael Tsarion is a great example - he's not a kook like Icke, but he does have his quirks - everything is '.... of Aten'.   The Lion of Aten, the Cult of Aten.  By what logic?  He never explains.  Tsarion believes civilization began with the Irish.  By what logic?  He never really explains.   There's just as good a reason to believe that Ireland got it (or I should say, were influenced) from the near-East.  BUT, he's a diligent researcher and has produced a wealth of information useful for someone like me trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle together.  

The smartest guy on the planet regarding all of this stuff IMO, is John of Texas ('Tracing Ladon Gog and the Hebrew Rose').  I don't share his religious leanings (I'm not religious at all) nor do I buy into religious prophesy other than to recognize it as a very effective propoganda tool, but John is way ahead of me in seeing the big picture, at least I think so, and his focus is all about bloodlines, families and tribes stretching back to antiquity.

I don't know if I mentioned this or not - I have followed John's additions to his book (of which there have been none lately, unfortunately) for several years now, and have even talked very briefly with him via email.   We both hit on the same eye-opening revalation independently and at the same time - which is that Judah=Zeus.   My route to this was through genealogy charts, correlations between Darda in the bible and Dardanus and Danaus of Greek Mythology.  They seemed to all talk about the same person, upon when it hit me that the proto-Viking/Frank future Trojans split off from the proto-Israelites and called their god Zeus while in the case of the Israelites the name Judah seemed to be close enough to warrant a connection, after all Darda was a son of Zerah who was a son of Judah.  Then one day I went to John's site and he had arrived at the same place by a different means, the closeness of Dios/Zios (Zeus) to Dion/Zion/Sion (and associated clues - enough of which convinced him, to his own dismay).

Of course, this is very difficult for someone like John, who is religious.  Not for me ... all it says to me is that the Greeks (or should I say some important Greeks), the Jews, the Vikings and the Franks (or should I say some elite and important Israelites and Trojans) all came from the same stock.  

Which sheds some light on the Spartans, a word suspiciously similar to Subartu (dragon-cult-central in Mesopotamia, later called Sophia), who are described in myth as springing from the dragons teeth that Cadmus planted after slaying the Ares Dragon.  

I'll stop myself ... heaven knows, I could spout on forever about this stuff !!!

Anyway, thanx for all the links and interest ...

BI = British Israelism

With all due respect, the Central Bankers, even if named, if they are on a published list, are not the people in charge.  I doubt the Rothschilds are really in charge.   After 2 centuries of sucking up the world's assets they very might well be, and maybe this is the key point.   But I'm still holding my cards, I'm still searching.

So uroko,

What do you think of "millenialism" today? Is there a Second coming of some sort? Will "God" ever rule the world again?

You might find this of interest. The Goths were also from the same region as the Khazars-Huns about the 450 AD:
-------

QuoteThe Merovingians

With the collapse of the Khazar Empire in the tenth century, the Khazars were forced to move into other parts of Europe, where they contributed in producing the aristocracies of Hungary, Bulgaria and Poland. A particular woman was important in this nexus, named Dubrawka of Bomehia, through whom these various bloodlines coalesced, to produce the important occult families of Western Europe.

From her descendants emerged the important union between this Khazar heritage, and the emerging bloodlines of Western Europe, the most important of which was that of the Merovingians, originally from Scythia. It is commonly repeated in occult circles that Mary Magdalene had brought to southern France a child she bore to Jesus, and that her lineage was survived among the Merovingians. A descendant of Mary Magdalene and this Jesus, Quintus Tarus, a prefect of Rome, married Argotta, heiress of the Franks, to father King Merovech, ancestor of the Merovingians dynasty.

However, into the Merovingian dynasty there was also introduced the line of Rabbi Makhir, or Natronai, a representative of the Jewish Exilarchs, who ruled the Jewish communities of the Muslim world from Baghdad. He was supposedly the father Guillaume de Gellone, one of the most famous heroes of the Medieval romances.
A dispute apparently arose as to successorship to the Exilarchate, and Natronai lost his claim and was banished to "the West". According to historian Arthur Zuckerman, Makhir would have adopted the Christian name Theodoric, or Thierry, and assumed the title of King of the Jews, and ruled over the independent state of Septimania in southern France, with the city of Narbonne as its capital.42 In the romances Theirry is called Aymery, the father of Guillaume de Gellone. The device of his shield was the Lion of Judah.

As late as 1143, Peter the Venerable of Cluny, in an address to Louis VII of France, condemned the Jews of Narbonne who continued to claim to have a king residing among them, a claim based presumably on the legend of Makhir. In 1144, Theobald, a Cambridge monk, spoke of "the chief Princes and Narbonne where the royal seed resides." In 1165-66 Benjamin of Tudela, the famous Jewish traveller and chronicler, reports that in Narbonne there are "sages, magnates and princes at the head of whom is... a remnant of the House of David as stated in his family tree."43

Guillaume married into the family of Charlemagne, ruler of what came to be known as the first important European power, the Holy Roman Empire. As well as being descended from the Merovingians, Charlemagne was also descended from the Mithraic bloodline. The intermarriage of the House of Herod, the Julio-Claudian dynasty, the House of Commagene, and priest-kings of Emeasa, bifurcated into two important directions. One of these was the imperial line that eventually produced Constantine. These two bloodlines were finally reunited in the person of St. Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, the great-grandfather of Charlemagne.44

It is frequently claimed by genealogists that all of European aristocracy can claim descent from Charlemagne. From the combined heritage of the Merovingians, Charlemagne and Guillaume of Gellone, emerged the kings of France, who would continue to use the Kabbalistic symbol of the lily as their heraldic symbol.

William of Gellone's sister Ida Redburga, married Egbert of Wessex, later first king of England. Egbert was the great-grandfather of Edward the Elder, King of England. Dubrawka's parents were Adiva, the daughter of Edward the Elder, and Boleslav I, the Duke of Bohemia, who became the first king of an independent Bohemia, in 955 AD. In 965 AD, a Jewish merchant named Ibrahim ibn Jakub noted that the Jews of Prague, the capital of Bohemia, were important persons and active in both local and long-distant trade. According to the Letter of King Joseph, when a Jewish foreign minister to the Sultan of Cordova, Spain, attempted to transmit a letter to the king of the Khazars, it was the envoys of Boleslav I, who were then in Cordova, who intervened. They offered to send the letter to Jews living in Hungary, who, in their turn, would transmit it to Russia, and from there through Bulgaria, to the Khazars.

Dubrawka married Mieszko I King of Poland. Their daughter married Geza Arpad, King of Hungary, and leader of the Magyars who also claimed descent from the Scythia. Their daughter married Gavril Radomir, the son of Samuil, Tsar of Bulgaria. Samuil was one of four sons of Nikola Kumet, Count of Bulgaria. Another branch of the Turks, the Bulgars, during the seventh century, had come under Khazar domination, with whom they shared a language. The Khazars forced some Bulgars to move to the upper Volga River region where the independent state of Volga Bulgaria was founded, while other Bulgars fled to modern-day Bulgaria.

Nikola married the daughter of the Shahanshah of the Bagratid dynasty of Armenia. The Bagratunis, who had become rulers of Armenia, in the ninth century AD, claimed Jewish descent. Moses of Chorene, who wrote a History of Armeni, the middle of the fifth century AD, stated that an Armenian king had joined Nebuchadnezzar in his first campaign against the Jews, and took part in the siege of Jerusalem.45 From among the captives he selected the distinguished Jewish chief Shambat, purportedly descended from Tamar of the Davidic Dynasty, and brought him with his family to Armenia.46 Through Jewish influence, Nikola Kumet's sons were all given Jewish names, which included David, Moses, and Aaron.

These Bulgarian Czars became defenders of Bogomilism, a Gnostic heresy that developed from Manichaeism and Pauliciansism. In 970 AD, the Byzantine emperor transplanted as many as 200,000 Armenian Paulicians and settled them in the Balkans, which then became the centre for the spread of their doctrines. Signifying in Slavonic "friends of God", their doctrine maintained the impotence of Christ and the need to instead appease Satan. Nicetas Choniates, a Byzantine historian of the twelfth century, described the followers of this cult as Satanists because, "considering Satan powerful they worshipped him lest he might do them harm."47

When England was invaded by Denmark, Ethelred the Unready, the son and successor of Edward the Elder, and therefore Dubrawka's uncle, was forced to flee from England to seek shelter in Normandy. However, when a struggle for succession persisted, after Ethelred's death, Ethelred's other son, Edward the Confessor, and Alfred Atheling, remained in Exile. When the dispute was resolved in 1040 AD, Edward the Confessor was invited back from Normandy, to become his co-ruler of England.
When Edward the Confessor heard that another half-brother, Edward the Exile, the son of Ethelred the Unready by another woman, was still alive, he had him recalled to England and made him his heir. As a child, to protect him from his enemies, Edward the Exile was secretly sent to Kiev, and then made his way to Hungary. In Hungary, Edward the Exile married Agatha of Bulgaria, the daughter of Gavril Radomir of Bulgaria. Agatha's mother was the grand-daughter of Mieszko I and Dubrawka.

Edward the Exile died shortly after his return, so Edward made his great nephew Edgar Atheling his heir. But Edgar had no secure following among the nobles. The resulting succession crisis opened the way for the successful invasion led by William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy. The Normans were descended from Rollo the Viking, a Viking leader, who married Poppa of Bavaria, the great-granddaughter of Guillaume of Gellone, and from whom were descended the Dukes of Normandy. Rollo came from the Orkneys, a few dozen small islands in northern Scotland. The islands were invaded by Vikings in the ninth century, where they ruled as Jarls, and made them headquarters for their raiding expeditions.

The daughter of Edward the Exile and Agatha of Bulgaria became St. Margaret Queen of Scotland, after marrying Malcolm III of Scotland. Their son was David I of Scotland, whose sister, Editha, married Henry I King of England, the son of William the Conqueror. Their daughter, Editha of Scotland, married Geoffrey V Plantagenet, a French descendant of Guillaume de Gellone, through the House of Anjou. Their son was Henry II, who became King of England in 1154 AD, and married Eleanore of Aquitaine. Eleanore bore Henry II five sons and three daughters, one of whom was Richard I, "the Lion-Hearted", who succeeded his father as king of England, and under whom the Angevin Empire attained its height.

Footnote:

42 Zuckerman, Arthur J. A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France, 768-900. New York: Columbia University Press, 1972.
43 Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln. Holy Blood Holy Grail, p. 395
44 James Allen Dow, "Robert (Count) de HESBAYE"
45 "Bagratuni", Jewish Encyclopedia.
46 James Allen Dow. "Tamar (Heiress) of the DAVIDIC Dynasty"
47 Wesbter. Secret Societies and Subversive Sects, p. 64

http://www.surrenderingislam.com/surren ... rovingians (http://www.surrenderingislam.com/surrendering-islam/merovingians)

QuoteCulture of Gothic Septimania

The native population of Gallia was referred to by Visigothic and Iberian writers as the "Gauls" and there is a well-attested hatred between the Goths and the Gaul which was atypical for the kingdom as a whole.[11] The Gauls commonly insulted the Goths by comparing the strength of their men to that of Gaulish women, though the Spaniards regarded themselves as the defenders and protectors of the Gauls. It is only in the time of Wamba and Julian of Toledo, however, that a large Jewish population becomes evident in Septimania: Julian referred to it as a "brothel of blaspheming Jews."[12]

Thanks to the preserved canons of the Council of Narbonne of 590, a good deal can be known about surviving pagan practices in Visigothic Septimania. The Council may have been responding in part to the orders of the Third Council of Toledo, which found "the sacrilege of idolatry [to be] firmly implanted throughout almost the whole of Iberia and Septimania."[13] The Roman pagan practice of not working Thursdays in honour of Jupiter was still prevalent.[14] The council set down penance to be done for not working on Thursday save for church festivals and commanded the practice of Martin of Braga, rest from rural work on Sundays, to be adopted.[14] Also punished by the council were fortunetellers, who were publicly lashed and sold into slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania)

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QuoteMerovingians & Dagobert

Extracts from:
1. Da Vinci Code Decoded, written by Martin Lunn. Website: http://www.davincicodedecoded.com/ (http://www.davincicodedecoded.com/)
2. The paths of Kind Dagobert, a new practical guide, written by Jean-Pierre Bousigues, translation Gay Roberts.

Clovis   
The Merovingians

The Merovingians ruled much of present-day France and Germany between the fifth and seventh centuries. The beginning of this time coincides with not only the Grail stories, but with the era of King Arthur, who was so central to many of these tales. There was never any question that the Merovingians were the rightful rulers of the Franks. They were not "created" as kings. The sons who were entitled became kings automatically on their twelfth birthdays. Their role was not to govern - that was left to the "Mayors of the Palace." They were simply expected to exist as representatives of the role, holding similar power and status to a twenty-first century constitutional monarch.

The Merovingians had a reputation for the occult and the supernatural. They were looked upon as priest-kings, much as the Egyptian pharaohs were regarded.
Bee

One of the abiding symbols of the Merovingians was the bee. Hundreds of pure gold bees were found in King Childeric's tomb. The custom endured through the centuries. When Napoleon was crowned emperor in 1804, he made sure that golden bees were attached to his coronation robes. He was fascinated by the Merovingians and commissioned their genealogies to be compiled in order to find out whether the dynasty had survived after it had been deposed. These formed the basis of the genealogies found in the Priory of Sion documents.
Dagobert II

Dagobert was born in 651 and when Clovis, his father, died in 656, all efforts were made to prevent him from inheriting Austrasia, the north-eastern realm of Clovis.
Dagobert II, king of Austrasia The leading Mayor of the Palace of the time, Grimoald, kidnapped Dagobert as soon as his father died and managed to persuade the court first that Dagobert was dead, and second that Clovis had wanted Grimoald's son to inherit the throne. So convincing was he that even Dagobert's mother believed him.

However, Grimoald had been unable to bring himself to murder Dagobert and had taken him to the Bishop of Poitiers, who had the child King exiled to Ireland. Here he grew up and was educated at the monastery of Slane near Dublin. He married a Celtic princess, Mathilde, and moved to York in northern England, where he got to know Saint Wilfred, the Bishop of York. At this time, the Merovingian alliance with the Roman Church was not as strong as it had been at the time of Clovis.

Wilfred was very keen to bring the Celtic and Roman churches together, which both sides had agreed upon at the Council of Whitby in 664. However, it seems that Wilfred also recognized the valuable potential of Dagobert - the rightful King of Austrasia - returning to France and reclaiming the land as the militant representative of the Church.

Dagobert's wife died in 670 and Wilfred was swift to ensure that Dagobert's next wife was chosen with care. She was Giselle de Razes, the daughter of the Count of Razes and the niece of the King of the Visigoths. This alliance between the Merovingians and the Visigoths would not only have brought much of France under the same rule, it would have empowered Rome over the Visigoths.
Austrasia formed the north-eastern portion of the Kingdom of the Merovingian Franks, comprising parts of the territory of present-day eastern France, western Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands. Metz served as its primary capital, although some Austrasian kings ruled from Rheims also.

They married at the church of St. Magdeleine in Rennes-le-Chateau. Having had four daughters through his two marriages, Dagobert now became the father to a son in 676 - Sigisbert IV.

King of Austrasia

After living three years at Rennes-le-Chateau, Dagobert was proclaimed the King of Austrasia. He quickly set about re-establishing order throughout his new kingdom and in so doing greatly increased his wealth.

He did not, however, live up to Wilfred's expectations. Therefore, inevitably, with his new-found wealth and lands, he developed enemies. He also caused the resentment of the rulers of neighboring Frankish lands, some of whom had connections in Dagobert's court that could be dangerous to him. One of these was his Mayor to the Palace, the treacherous Pepin the Fat.
Austrasia & Neustrasia

King Dagobert II, thirteenth king of Austrasia, was threatened by Ebroïn, who was Mayor of the palace to Thierry, king of Neustria. Ebroïn administered Neustria unchecked and he wanted to seize Austrasia as well.
Under the guidance of Wulfoad, his own Mayor of the palace, Dagobert II had given his son Sigebert a share of his throne. But the King of Austrasia's sensible precautions were thwarted by Ebroin.

The assassination
The year 679 was coming to its end and Dagobert was living in his royal house, SATHANACUM - known today as Stenay - where he was to spend the Christmas holiday. On 23rd December, he went out hunting in the forest of "Wepria" (known today as Woëvre) with a number of followers. Around the middle of the day, tired from the hunt, the king sat down near a fountain, which ran near to a large oak, to take some rest. It is still called ARPHAYS, and the section of the forest known as "SCORTlA" One of the servants among the conspirators struck the king while he was praying.

Dagobert, last king of a wide and powerful realm, perished, dying while doing good.
The king's body was taken first to the villa of Charmois, during the evening of 23rd December, then to the basilica of Sathanacum, which at that time was dedicated to Saint Rémi. All the dignitaries of the realm came to mourn the death of the sovereign.

Fountain of Arphays
Saint Dagobert II
The Roman Church wasted no time in commending the action. However, perhaps through guilt, they canonized Dagobert in 872, when his remains were moved to the graveyard of a church which was renamed "the Church of Saint Dagobert." They even gave him his own feast day, on December 23rd. This day also happened to be sacred to the Benjamite tribe. The Roman Catholic Church has always been unable or unwilling to explain why he was canonized.

From the day of his burial in the Church of Saint Dagobert, his grave has been a destination of pilgrimage for various significant historical figures including the Duke of Lorraine, the grandfather of Godfroi de Bouillon. The church was destroyed during the French Revolution and most of the relics of Saint Dagobert disappeared. Today only what is believed to be his skull remains, and it is held at a convent at Mons. Curiously some years later, a poem entitled "de Sancta Dagoberto martyre prose" appeared. Its message was that Dagobert had been martyred for some reason and it was found at the Abbey of Orval.
The end of the Merovingian era

Dagobert's assassination effectively marked the end of the Merovingian era. After the death of Dagobert, the Merovingian dynasty fell into decline, although they managed to hang onto much of their status for nearly a hundred more years. However, many of the monarchs were too young to be effective, and were unable to defend themselves against the relentless ambitions of the Mayors of the Palace. Childeric III died childless in 754 and that was the clearest sign that the dynasty's flame had expired.

What became of his son Sigisbert? No-one knows. According to some, he died before his father. Others say it was at the same time or after. Still others have him slipping through the clutches

The betrayal of Clovis by the assassination of Dagobert II has been the greatest source of anguish for the Priory of Sion and the Merovingian descendants. However, there seems to have been an attempt to mitigate the insult. Thus the Carolingian royal family (the family of Emperor Charlemagne) married Merovingian princesses in order to legitimize themselves. Dagobert's son, Sigisbert, was the ancestor of Guillem de Gellone, ruler of the Jewish kingdom of Septimania in southern France and later of Godfroi de Bouillon, who captured Jerusalem during the Crusades. Thereby the bloodline of Jesus Christ, the Davidic line, was restored back to the throne that had been rightfully its own since the time of the Old Testament.

http://cottage.moulin-le-cygne.com/merovingians.html (http://cottage.moulin-le-cygne.com/merovingians.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... ian_Plains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Catalaunian_Plains)

QuoteGnostic Connection to Tarot Cards
topic posted Tue, November 3, 2009 - 6:39 AM by  offlineYogi-Ogi    Share/Save/Bookmark
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Is there a possible connection between the arcane designs of Tarot Cards and developments in Spain with the expulsion of the Jews, and much later the Moriscos. The acculturated Catholicised Moriscos, some of whom went to Marseilles, some to Tuscany, another returned to Tunisia/Morrocco and some even to Turkey and Germany. Paul Foster Case suggests Tunisia as the womb of Tarot Divination, Marseilles as the midwife and Italy as the kindergarten. If Moses de Leon was or is the author of the Sefer Yetzirah then that would explain a previous link to Qabballah. In Italy a romantic trend prevailed with cards being played primarily by women (men using chess or draughts as a diversion) with relevant advice in matters of AMOUR and a chivalric code of behaviour.
By 1379 the Arabs and Moors became mercenary soldiers to the Popes Urban VI and Clement VII against other rival Italian Princes. They remained in S. Spain until 1492 where card games were known as "naipes" (from the Arabic word Naib), a word that may have derived from a Flemish word meaning paper (knaep), as commercial trading between Flanders and Spain was common at that time. Contrary to popular assertions, travelling bands of gypsies could not have been responsible for their invention or original dissemination because the Romany people did not appear in Europe until the middle of the 15th century. Other experts have attributed the invention of Tarot cards to the ascetic military order of the Knight Templars founded in 1118 by Hugh Payens to protect pilgrims venturing to the Crusades. This idea is somewhat fanciful but may have some basis in the Templars obscure connection with two other heretical sects; the Cathars of France, associated with Pagan Gnosticism and the Bogomils of Hungary, associated with Manichaeian Dualism. Both of these sects were despised and persecuted by the Catholic Church and the Knight Templars were also later branded similarly and some followers and leaders executed as heretics. Popular games, whether with boards, dice, cards and such-like were common in the eastern cultures and treated with less derision and superstition by their priests and sages. In many respects they became a means of instruction and education, many of which have percolated into contemporary western cultures such as the game of "snakes & ladders" for example. The 16 Court Cards for example coincide with 16 characters in Geomancy.
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Some writings from a dear Tarot Teacher and dearly departed Mentor of mine, Ditch Gault (Richard A. Gault):

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The oldest known Tarot deck is one reputed to have been painted by Jacquemin Grigonneur for Charles VI of France, about 1390 A.D. Seventeen of the designs remain in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris. (Some scholars feel that these are beautiful Italian fakes of a later date!) The "Charles VI Deck" contains the following cards: The Fool, Emperor, Pope, Lovers, World, Temperence, Fortitude, Justice, Moon, Sun, Chariot, Hermit, Hanged Man, Death, Tower, Judgement and one solitary Page of Swords. The trumps are not numbered, so it is unlikely that the deck was ever intended for gaming.

(Snip!)

In order to give a history of where the Tarot came from, only speculation can fill the gaps. The tarot contains elements from many fields, but some elements can be said to be very strong: 1) Neoplatonism, and other western elements from ancient mystery religions; 2) Kabbalism, and other related forms of Jewish mysticism; 3) Islamic mysticism–Sufism; 4)Christian mysticism and heresy; 5) perhaps a smattering of far-eastern thought. These will allow us to trace a theoretical route taken by the elusive Tarot deck. In its last stop before completion lastly, it picked up a heavy dose of Celtic craziness.

I personally believe that the Tarot deck, or a Proto-tarot, was spread from Persia by various mystic sects in Islam. Secondly, I believe that it was brought into southern France by the Cathar Church. I also believe that this deck was probably a "mnemonic" teaching device, used by both Islamic and Christian mystics in Europe. The Religious Wars of Spain, the Heresy Pograms, and the Holy Office of the Inquisition may have irradicated both the people who used the deck and any gloss they may have left behind. It is also my opinion that the proto-Tarot entered Europe BEFORE the Crusades and the "Renaissance" of the 12th Century.

(NOTE: See Idries Shah's book "The Sufis" for his reference to an Islamic origin of playing cards.) (Snip!)

By the 1400's, the Deck is already in Europe.

Sometime earlier, the deck was probably carried into Spain by a Sufi Mystic—where it made its way over the Pyrenees into the hotbed of heresy known as Provence. From about 960, Provencals had engaged in trafficking information with the Arab Intelligencia located mostly in Madrid. In 967 a cleric and mathematician named Gerbert (later Pope Sylvester II) crossed over into Spain for the express purpose of getting Arab Math manuscripts translated. His short stay coincides with the last years of the reign of Hakin II, the Spanish Caliph. This enlightened ruler encouraged scholarly eclecticism among Christians, Jews, and Islamic thinkers. His huge library of, perhaps, 400,000 volumes, was a haven for intellectuals at a time when there were only about 1,000 books in all of Christian Europe. When Gerber left Spain in 970, he made arrangements with a Christian, Llobert of Barcelona, for manuscripts to be translated and transhipped to him. He was especially interested in manuscripts on Mathematics and Astrology. Gerber proves, without a doubt, that there was a trade, perhaps underground, in arabic manuscripts into the Europe of the "Dark Ages.

In this century a serious Jewish scholar, G.G. Scholem, began to re-examine the history of Jewish Mysticism—Kabbalism. In his "Major Trends of Jewish Mysticism," he makes a good case for manuscripts being importated BACK INTO SPAIN by the mid-1100's. The most famous of all Kabbalistic books is the "Sepher Zohar" (Book of Splendor), which was probably written by a Spanish Kabbalist Moses de Leon ni about 1275. . .What Scholem showed was the "Zohar" was based on an EARLIER book, "The Bahir." "The Bahir" seems to have been written in Provence in the mid-1100's. He wrote: "...it is reasonable to assume that the Kabbalists of Provence who wrote or edited the book "Bahir" owe it to the influence of the catharists, the chief religious force in Provence until 1220, ie. during the years which saw the rise of Kabbalism.

Scholem also finds it probable that the writings of John the Scott or Johannes Scotus Erigena (meaning John the Scott from Ireland?!) Had considerable influence on the Provencal Kabbalists who wrote the "Bahir." John the Scott was an Irish mystic and scholar who was attached to the court of Charlemagne. In the period before the "Dark Ages" the Irish (Celtic) Catholic Church was the major power in Christendom in the west, outside of Rome. In matters of theology and scholarship, the Celtic Church was paramount. The Irish scholars were the only translators of Greek manuscripts in Western Europe, for example.

(Maggie's note: It is interesting that Shirley McLaine (in her book "The Camino") has written of a past life as a coffee-colored, dark-haired woman who walked "The Camino" as Charlemagne's companion, and talked to him about mysticism!)

Shah's point on Islamic origins is important, but his desire to debunk Kabbalistic and Christian elements may be due to his own zeal, rather than to reality. Shah knows well that long before 1,000 AD, Sufi doctrine had incorporated elements of both into its own beliefs and doctrines. The great alchemist Jabir Ibn Hayyan al-Sufi incorporated Kabbalistic number theory into his writings as early as the 700's. The Ishmaili Encyclopedists of Basra did much the same in the 900's. It is not difficult to trace their effect upon Spanish Sufis in the Middle Ages, like Ibn Arabi. The Islamic mystics and Kabbalists seem to have had close relations in Spain. An older mysticism from the Neo-platonic Celtic Church meets both Islamic and Jewish mysticism in Provence, and perhaps this interface resulted in something wholly new. One of these new things might be the European Tarot; another might be the Cathar Church of southern France.

The Cathar Church of Provence was the first major theological revolt that Christianity had suffered since the days of the early church. We really do not know when it began, except that the Church records mention the first burning of a Cathar in Piedmont, in Italy, in 1020 AD. The standard Catholic version of the Cathars sees them as a western version of the eastern Orthodox heresy known as the Bogomil Church. More recent writers such as Zoe Olderberg have argued that the Cathar church was a home grown product only superficially connected with the Bogomils. The Cathars eventually severed relations with the Manicheans of the east. They seem to have come to consider themselves as Christians in complete disagreement with Rome. Most records of the Cathars come from the Roman Church, so we should be warned that these records will present them in the worst possible light.

(Snip!)

The Cathar Church is NOT an isolated phenomenon. It is part of the entire cultural "Renaissance" which occured in Provence in the Middle Ages. Dante, as we recall, wanted to write "The Divine Comedy" in Provencal, but was convinced that he would be identified by authorities with the heresy there. Dante also built much of the mystic cosmology in the "Comedy" on the writings of Ibn Aribi, the Spanish Sufi. Among the independent thinkers of Italy in the 1300's, Provence was considered a rare haven of ecclecticism and freedom.

(Snip!)

In my opinion the Cathars are only a part of a magnificent and tragic flowering which took place, most noticiably, in Provence. Whole Multi-volumes have been devoted to the whys and wherefores of this flowering–so I can hardly clear up this historical problem in a short space. There was a new examination of Christian writings, discouraged by Rome. The writings of other people became available. There was a nostalgia for the "old religion" both Pagan and Celtic Christian. No doubt the unique similarities of various forms of mysticism, Pagan, Christian, Jewish, or Islamic, became apparent.

It is quite likely that the European Tarot deck came from the Provencal "Renaissance" as a result of the unique intercultural exchanges which existed there. The idea that the card deck originated in Islamic society seems likely, but it is also likely that the European Tarot incorporates much more than just information irroded from an original source. It is difficult to tell what is "pure" Sufism, when Sufism itself is full of borrowed elements in the first place! The idea that the Tarot we know originated with the Cathars, or similar sect, has plagued several commentators, such as Harold Bayley, A.E. Waite, and Medieval historian Steven Runciman.

http://gnostics.tribe.net/thread/1b534f ... d4c7e1439e (http://gnostics.tribe.net/thread/1b534fbe-f007-4e68-85d0-aad4c7e1439e)

The Luciferian Bloodline

The plot for a series of World Wars in the twentieth century, culminating in
a third against the Muslim world, was devised in the nineteenth century, by
American Civil War general, Albert Pike, then Grand Master of Scottish Rite
Freemasonry, a primary adjunct of the Illuminati. However, though the final
stages of this plot have been largely reserved for our time, the conspiracy
is affiliated with a lore of occult knowledge that dates back to at least the
sixth century BC. This lore begins with a heresy, known as Kabbalah, which
disguises itself as Jewish, but is a pact to seek world domination, and the
eradication of religion in favour of the worship of Lucifer.
The goal devised by these Kabbalists has since been the installation of
their "messiah" as world leader, who, according to their interpretation of the
Bible, is to be of line of King David. Since that time, to preserve this purported
lineage, until the advent of their expected leader, these Luciferians have been
carefully intermarrying amongst each other, and have included among them
many of the leading figures of history. They begin with a Persian Royal
family, who intermarried with that of Alexander the Great. By combining
with that of Herod the Great, these families were responsible for the creation
and dissemination of the leading mystery school of the Roman Empire, the
Mysteries of Mithras, which eventually succeeded in co-opting the emerging
Christian movement, by producing Catholic Christianity.
Nevertheless, a secret, or Gnostic, version of Christianity, also derived
from Mithraism, survived to compete with Catholicism, in the form of several
secret societies, like the Templars, Rosicrucians and Freemasons, practicing
occult arts, or what is known as "witchcraft". This tradition was perpetuated
by the most popularized branch of the Luciferian bloodline, the Merovingians.
Symbolized by the Holy Grail, the Merovingians, after intermarrying into the
family of a Jewish Exilarch, or claimant to the Jewish throne, culminated in all
the leading families of the Crusades.
It was at this time that this European branch of the family recombined
with others from Eastern Europe and Armenia. These Eastern aristocracies
1
: The Lost Tribes
Terrorism and the Illuminati
8
derived from the enigmatic Khazars, who had populated southern Russia and
the Basin of the Don River, and who, in the eighth century AD, had converted
to Judaism. Legend has it, however, that the Khazars were remnants of the
Lost Tribes. Armenia, just across the Caucasus, was another locale of these
supposed Lost Tribes. It was the intermarriage and perpetuation of these
aristocratic bloodlines that were being referred to in the heraldic symbols of
the lily, the rose, the double-headed eagle, and the skull and crossbones.
Also during the Crusades, this network connected with an important
occult center hiding within the Islamic world, in Cairo Egypt, who followed
the heretical version of Islam known as Ismailism. According to Masonic
legend, a number of these "Eastern Brethren" were rescued and brought to
Scotland, where they provided the basis of Sottish Rite Freemasonry, which
emerged in the eighteenth century. However, at the same time, this legend
also provided the basis for the establishment of Freemasonry in Egypt, which
then became the second center of Illuminati activism. It was from these secret
networks of Islamic impostors by which the Western powers created Islamic
terrorism, used to foment of a Clash of Civilizations, through the fabrication
of the terrorist threat.

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Septimania

The Coronation of Charlemagne

The authors relied mainly on the theories of Jewish researcher Arthur Zuckerman, who constructed the thesis that in the eighth century, the Carolingian monarchs permitted the establishment of a Jewish prince in southern France, then known as Septimania, now referred as the Languedoc, with its capital at Narbonne. Zuckerman based his theory on an appendix to a fourteenth century work titled Sepher ha Kabbalah , according to which:

    Then King Charles sent to the King of Baghdad [Caliph] requesting that he dispatch one of his Jews of the seed of royalty of the House of David. He hearkened and sent him one from there, a magnate and sage, Rabbi Makhir by name. And [Charles] settled him in Narbonne, the capital city, and planted him there, and gave him a great possession there at the time he captured it from the Ishmaelites [Arabs]. And he [Makhir] took to wife a woman from among the magnates of the town; *...* and the King made him a nobleman and designed, out of love for [Makhir], good statutes for the benefit of all the Jews dwelling in the city, as is written and sealed in a Latin charter; and the seal of the King therein [bears] his name Carolus; and it is in their possession at the present time. The Prince Makhir became chieftain there. He and his descendants were close [inter-related] with the King and all his descendants.

Zuckerman maintains that this Makhir would then have assumed the Christian name of Theodoric, and married Alda, daughter of Charles Martel. The authors contend however, that Theodoric is also recognized by scholars as being also of Merovingian descent. He was known as Aymery in the romances, and was the father of Guillem de Gellone, about whom there were at least six major epic poems composed before the era of the crusades, including Willehalm, by Wolfram von Eschenbach, the most famous of the mediaeval Grail chroniclers.

However, Dr. Zuckerman's thesis has not been reviewed without some skepticism in historical journals. As Nathaniel Taylor has indicated, Zuckerman's primary sources were late manuscripts. Nevertheless, the legend became quite common, and, true or not, could have founded the basis of the Grail legends. In 1165-66 Benjamin of Tudela, a famous Jewish traveler and chronicler, reported that in Narbonne there are "sages, magnates and princes at the head of whom is... a remnant of the House of David as stated in his family tree." And, according to Taylor:

    ...the legend of Charlemagne's installation of the dynasty, and of associated grants of privileges, follows a literary pattern which was extremely common in this area in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. To embellish and mythologize the past, and particularly to invent connections to Charlemagne, was a frequent subterfuge of the area's monastic communities, but it appears also to have been true of other social groups - including the Jews. We cannot now determine the validity of the Davidic origins of the Jewish dynasty of Narbonne - or even its continuity, or the names of individual nesiim [Jewish leaders]- before the eleventh century." (Saint William, King David, and Makhir )

The Kabbalah

Portaelucis, by Paolus Ricius, Augusta (1516)

The legends of the Grail clearly pertain to figures related to some purported lineage, as well as including allusions to the Order of Templar Knights and doctrines of the Cathars. There are also evident links between the ideas present in the Grail and the Kabbalah. Wolfram von Eschenbach, the most famous of the Mediaeval Grail romances, claimed to have received his information from a Jew named Flegetanis. Furthermore, the Grail of Eschenbach corresponds almost perfectly with the symbols the grade of Kabbalistic of initiation known as Tiferet, consisting of a kind of sacrificial death, and rebirth or resurrection into another dimension. As the authors explain:

    For the medieval Kabalists the initiation into Tiferet was associated with certain specific symbols. These included a hermit or guide or wise old man, a majestic king, a child, a sacrificed god. In time other symbols were added as well — a truncated pyramid, for example, a cube and a rose cross. The relation of these symbols to the romances is sufficiently apparent. In every Grail narrative there is a wise old hermit — Perceval's or Parzival's uncle frequently — who acts as a spiritual guide. In Wolfram's poem the Grail as "stone" may possibly correspond to the cube.

The Cathars

Cathars being expelled from Carcassone, France (13th Century painting)

In a Wolfram poem, Perceval is the father of Lohengrin, the Knight Swan. One day, in his castle Munsalvaesche, the famous Montsegur fortress of the Cathars, he hears a bell toll as a signal to come to the aid of a damsel in distress. According to some sources, she was the duchess of Bouillon, whom Lohengrin hastened to her rescue in a boat drawn by swans. Having defeated her persecutor, he married the lady, though, requiring of her that she not question about his ancestry. At last, wrought with curiosity, she broke the vow, at which point Lohengrin was forced to leave. Behind him, though, he left her with a child, according to various accounts, that was either father or grandfather of Godfroi de Bouillon, leader of the first Crusade.

In 1209 the Catholic Church initiated the Abligensian Crusade, to extirpate the Cathar sect from the Languedoc. Final defeat came upon the Cathars at their famous stronghold of Montsegur in the foothills of the Pyrennees in 1244.

depiction of Baphomet, according to sorcerer Eliphas Levi

Following similar accusations, the Templars were arrested and tried for heresy in 1307. The Templars were charged of worshipping an idol named Baphomet, along with accusations similar to those assailed against witches: urinating on the cross, ritual murder of children, worshipping the devil in the shape of a black cat and committing acts of sodomy and bestiality. Baphomet was merely a continuation of the ancient dying-god of the mysteries, Baal of the Phoenicians, or Pan of the Greeks, and god of the Underworld, who equated with the planet Venus, whose original Latin name was Lucifer.

Though the order was disbanded, and its leader Jacques de Molay executed, legend has it that a number of knights escaped to Scotland, where they became protectors of a bloodline affiliated to the Merovingians, the Stuarts, supposed descendants of King Arthur.


http://www.thedyinggod.com/holygrail.html (http://www.thedyinggod.com/holygrail.html)

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"So uroko,

What do you think of "millenialism" today? Is there a Second coming of some sort? Will "God" ever rule the world again?

I'm not religious.  That doesn't mean people don't latch on to these ideas, both people trying to control everything and others who would fight them.  "John", who I highly respect, takes that stuff very seriously however.  
http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm (http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm)
http://www.tribwatch.com/ (http://www.tribwatch.com/)

Lots of useful material above, thanks, I read most of it.   The first bit was in some respects very informative (I hadn't ever looked into Dubrawka of Bomehia (she married Mieszko  I Piast Duke of Poland - I looked this up and immediately saw that (1) their son Boleslaw I King of Poland marries Judith Arpad and (2) that their granddaughter Agatha of Poland is one of the possible mothers of Margaret Queen of Scotland, a great mystery).   However, there's some mistakes in there too.  Some pretty big ones.  The book excerpt about the Merovingians states:  

"...A particular woman was important in this nexus, named Dubrawka of Bomehia, through whom these various bloodlines coalesced, to produce the important occult families of Western Europe.   From her descendants emerged the important union between this Khazar heritage, and the emerging bloodlines of Western Europe, the most important of which was that of the Merovingians, originally from Scythia..."    That sentence gives one the impression that the Merovingian line sprang from Dubrawka of Bomehia's union with the Prince of Poland.  That would be quite a feat, 'cause the Merovingians ruled from the 5th - 7th centuries, while Dubrawka lived in the 10th century.  

"...into the Merovingian dynasty there was also introduced the line of Rabbi Makhir..."   Well, sort of.  Another time-frame problem.  Makhir, if Guillaume of Gellone and Bertha of Autun were really his descendents, introduced his blood into the Caronlingian line.   He came to France several generations after the Merovingian line of kings had ended.  Charlemagne and his descendents might have had a bit of Merovingian blood in them (through Bertrada "Broadfoot") but they were Carolingians.  

"...Dubrawka married Mieszko I King of Poland. Their daughter married Geza Arpad, King of Hungary, and leader of the Magyars who also claimed descent from the Scythia."   Nope, their daughter was Gunhild, who married Sven II and Harald III of Denmark/Norway - Gunhild's son was Canute.  Geza Arpad on the other hand married Sophia von Looz ... and besides, any daughter of Dubrawka would have been a very old woman when Geza Arpad was born.

"...Edward the Exile was secretly sent to Kiev, and then made his way to Hungary. In Hungary, Edward the Exile married Agatha of Bulgaria, the daughter of Gavril Radomir of Bulgaria. Agatha's mother was the grand-daughter of Mieszko I and Dubrawka...."   We don't know that.  I've been up and down and all over Agatha's identity, and there are simply several theories.

So, 'Surrendering Islam' as a source gets a low grade for being peppered with mistakes.  Probably the author didn't really understand his subject and just collected alot of info, some of it bogus, and got a bit mixed up.   Everything else I've read above so far is more up to snuff - thanx for the info.   :up:

Quote from: "uroko""...into the Merovingian dynasty there was also introduced the line of Rabbi Makhir..."   Well, sort of.  Another time-frame problem.  Makhir, if Guillaume of Gellone and Bertha of Autun were really his descendents, introduced his blood into the Caronlingian line...

That really needs to be clarified.  IF Guillaume of Gellone and Bertha of Autun were the son and daughter of Rabbi Makhir, and that is controversial (though I buy into it), then his blood essentially MIXED with the blood of the Carolingians (he had a Carolingian wife) and bled into the major noble houses of France: Lusignan, Anjou, Aquitaine, Toulouse and Brittany.  These houses in turn intermarried with the Carolingians and the Norman line of Sinclair (the English throne).   I feel I did a fairly decent job of sorting through all this stuff about Makhir, the Merovingians and the Carolingians in my post about the Franks.  

http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml)

Hopefully I can finish and upload my post about the Coat of Vlad soon - I've been working on it for quite a while now, but it's tricky and I just don't feel like I have a grasp on it yet.   I share "John's" belief that the family of Vlad are somehow connected to Vladimir I, and the family coat of arms of Vlad is a single large hexogram (6 pointed star) - and, it's blue and white like the arms of Rangabe/Melissena and the Israeli flag. The coat obviously long predates the use of the symbol as a Jewish symbol.  Now that I have come to the realization of the huge role that Vladimir and his family played in spreading Hun, Varangian and Khazar blood throughout the houses of Europe, I am certain that this is a key point.    I just can't quite put my finger on it - hence my inability to finish the post.    Heck, it might take me a month.  

I'm also trying to fix a few things in 'Uroko' - I'm redoing the little bit about Roger I and the skull and bones.   I learned (too late) that what he found at the grave (in the legend) was the skull moved to below the pelvis above the femur bones crossed.   Many Templars, it seems, have been buried with their femur bones crossed like this. (Looking for confirmation.)  The cool thing about it is the obvious presence of the "rebirth" theme, which ties the Templar myth to the Chi-Rho.  (I mention it because it's so interesting IMO.)

Nice commentary uroko and eyes on this! Your knowledge of Heraldry is impressive.

I know that when looking at Bloodlines and Heraldry, the overlapping of 40-70 year "layers" with descendants upon descendants within the same geographical locations, requires careful study. I bet this could be databased though and aggregated for errors and spurious claims of "overlaps".

 I know several of the sources above cross hundreds of years which makes a definitive analysis or "line" nearly impossible, or it requires years of study and access to source documents.  In regards to this, I'm curious about Septimania as an ancient "Jewish"-Gothic province in Langudoc, Franc -- and if the Merovingians propagated a form of Kabballah that got reinforced by Cathar Templars and Islamic mystics who themselves carried a few Kabbalah-Mithraic traditions. Do you think Septimania as Jewish that started several "bloodines" is legitimate?  I know that is highly speculative.  

The "Royal Bloodline" hoax or story via Zuckerman's Makhir gives the impression that a "Davidic" line from Babylon continued in Europe and among European Royals after "royalty" emerged from the kings of the tribes of post-collapse Roman territories.  Might be just Jewish Chutzpah with nothing behind it since documents from that period are very rare and a lot claims can be made without challenges.  

BTW, I did find the Tarot as an interesting connection between Kabbalah and Islamic mysticism.  Sorry to drag this all over the map and over the years.

You might find this article in the Meroviginian section worth a view as well. It mentions some of the same cast of characters in your very interesting Video on the NWO. :)

Cheers,

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8414&p=32241&hilit=Septimania#p32241 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8414&p=32241&hilit=Septimania#p32241)

I look at it like this - the Vikings, Huns, Franks, Bagratid rulers of Armenia and probably Khazars as well all share a history in the Levant - in the northern Levant, between Mt. Hermon or Mt. Hazzi, both centers of pagan worship.   This is from where the cults of Troad and Greece originated.   They burned babies, they got drunk and had wild orgies and their priests whacked off their genitals (not proven in the case of the above but known to have been practiced my Kybele cults in Rome) in homage to Attis - I learned that there is some sort of wicker-man Magog thing they do in the City of London - sorry, I can't remember.  The CFR logo is actually (I am almost certain) Sabazios, the cult of Saba-Zios being the Trojan incarnation of Cybele merged with Zeus.  Then you have what goes on at the Bohemian Grove.  I mean, these elite are so obviously evil pricks who trace their ancestry (whether legitimately or not) to these pagan peoples and cults and are proud of it.    

And they want the holy land - the Levant, the homeland of their supposed ancestors.  They want to take it back from the Muslims.  How do you do that?  It's not easy, retaking an entire region of the world.   It might take hundreds of years, you might have to generate interest in, say, a vaguely related religion (Judaism) returning to their homeland, and hijack that religion. You might have to  invest in someone like Hitler and let him kill a bunch of them to garner sympathy for a homeland for those people and try and get some of them to move to the desert.   You might have to start a war on terror to justify all out war on Muslims in general.  But, if one is patient and incredibly cold and rotten in their heart, its doable.

We're seeing it happen in slow motion (real time).  

I wanta know why.   What's really going on?  Who are these people?  Why do they want to take over ancient Mesopotamia?  What lies have we been fed?   I'm just an average guy with an average IQ, but I don't take anything for granted.

Oh, I forgot to respond about the Tarot.  Incredibly interesting.

I talked around this in a post here -

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/inde ... p=10749906 (http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=14260&view=findpost&p=10749906)

The four winds/directions/elements/suits relate to the way the crosses of many banners are constructed - one large cross divides the flag into four quadrants - the first cross being the "fifth element".  Just like the dragon is the "13th constellation".   It rules the others and is part of the whole, but has its own identity - hence the obsession in western culture with the numbers 12 and (the "darker") 13.  Watch the Fifth Element - the supreme (female) being, the latent messages, watch when she stops the evil at the end, when the 4 elements and herself unite and generate the "killer light-ray", you can see the Celtic cross for just a few frames.  

Then (earlier) "Zorg" does his speech about "Order out of Chaos".  

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/inde ... p=10749781 (http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=13644&view=findpost&p=10749781)

The tricky part is, how did these messages find their way into this movie?  Is Luc Besson one of "them"?

The only thing uroko,
is that I can't see how this Cult of Sabazios was transmitted through the centuries. The Kabballah, yes, which is Babylonian Jewish, was passed over the centuries and spread both orally and in print. It was also had ceremonial usage via Rabbis.  

I don't see this with the Sabazios. From what I found here, it appears the Romans actually prohibited the religion at one point. I figure it was subsumed into any of the numerous "Eastern Mystery cults" of the Roman age as they took over the Grecian world. Basically, I don't see it on the same path of propagation through the centuries as the Kabballah or the Council of Nicea's Latin-Greek Bible.

Sabazios

QuoteTransformation to Sabazius

Transference of Sabazios to the Roman world appears to have been mediated in large part through Pergamum.[7] The naturally syncretic approach of Greek religion blurred distinctions. Later Greek writers, like Strabo in the first century AD, linked Sabazios with Zagreus, among Phrygian ministers and attendants of the sacred rites of Rhea and Dionysos.[8] Strabo's Sicilian contemporary, Diodorus Siculus, conflated Sabazios with the secret 'second' Dionysus, born of Zeus and Persephone,[9] a connection that is not borne out by surviving inscriptions, which are entirely to Zeus Sabazios.[10] The Christian Clement of Alexandria had been informed that the secret mysteries of Sabazius, as practiced among the Romans, involved a serpent, a chthonic creature unconnected with the mounted skygod of Phrygia: "'God in the bosom' is a countersign of the mysteries of Sabazius to the adepts". Clement reports: "This is a snake, passed through the bosom of the initiates".[11]

Much later, the Greek encyclopedia, Sudas (10th century?), flatly states

    "Sabazios... is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein'. Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos [becomes] Sabazios. They also used to call 'saboi' those places that had been dedicated to him and his Bacchantes... Demosthenes [in the speech] 'On Behalf of Ktesiphon' [mentions them]. Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same. Thus some also say that the Greeks call the Bakkhoi Saboi."[12]

In Roman sites, though not a single temple consecrated to Sabazius, the rider god of the open air, has been located,[13] small votive hands, typically made of copper or bronze, are often associated with the cult of Sabazios. Many of these hands have a small perforation at the base which suggests they may have been attached to wooden poles and carried in processions. The symbolism of these objects is not well known.[14]
[edit] Jewish connection

The first Jews who settled in Rome were expelled in 139 BCE, along with Chaldaean astrologers by Cornelius Hispalus under a law which proscribed the propagation of the "corrupting" cult of "Jupiter Sabazius," according to the epitome of a lost book of Valerius Maximus:

QuoteCnaeus Cornelius Hispalus, praetor peregrinus in the year of the consulate of Marcus Popilius Laenas and Lucius Calpurnius, ordered the astrologers by an edict to leave Rome and Italy within ten days, since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies. The same praetor compelled the Jews, who attempted to infect the Roman custom with the cult of Jupiter Sabazius, to return to their homes."[15]

By this it is conjectured that the Romans identified the Jewish Yahveh Sabaoth ("of the Hosts") as Sabazius.

This mistaken connection of Sabazios and Sabaoth has often been repeated. In a similar vein, Plutarch naively maintained that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius.[16] No modern reader would confuse Yahweh with Dionysus or Sabazius. Plutarch also discusses the identification of the Jewish god with the "Egyptian" (actually archaic Greek) Typhon, an identification which he later rejects, however. The monotheistic Hypsistarians worshipped the Jewish god under this name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios)

Sorry, the Cult of Sabazios is WAY IMPORTANT.   It was the first Cult to establish the rings-within-rings format that Rhodes adopted. It inspired the architecture of Freemasonry.  It's why the CFR logo shows Sabazios.  Sabazios was the world's first "mystery religion", priests at the center in possession of secret knowlege, an inner circle into which only invited initiates can enter and learn the secrets.  That is the model with which our elite rule the world, and it started with the Cult of Sabazios - that's why the CFR logo displays the same.   Look at his (the naked CFR guy's) hand - thumb and 1st two fingers outstretched, last two fingers retracted.  That's the hand of Sabazios - many bronze examples have been dug up - some in Ugarit!!  

No, sorry, the cult of Sabazios it central.  Yeah, the Romans tried to ignore it, they eventually permitted it, but they are NOT central to the history of the current elite.   The CURRENT ruling elite are not descended from Romans - nor Greeks (most of them) ... they are descended from Trojans.

All I can say is that I don't see the CFR using "horse and snakes" themes in their works. Overall, I just don't see this "theme" throughout the "ages" if you know what I mean. It just stopped in the Roman era. The Babylonian Talmud seems to continue however... even to the present day with a large number of tracts referencing it.  I don't see a religious "Work" that continues the tradition of the Sabazios...I'm just pointing out what I obviously see:

"
Sabazios is the nomadic horseman and sky father god of the Phrygians and Thracians. In Indo-European languages, such as Phrygian, the '-zios' element in his name derives from dyeus, the common precursor of 'deus' (god) and Zeus. Though the Greeks interpreted Phrygian Sabazios[1] with both Zeus and Dionysus,[2] representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power.
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios)

Some may not be convinced, but Sabazios is, I sincerely believe, the horseman on the CFR logo - placed there in homage.  That's not one of the four horsman of the apocalypse as most claim.   Sabazios is allegedly the inspiration for St. George the dragon slayer.   His cult was officially the first "mystery religion" and was the result of the merging of the Greek pantheon and the Trojan Cult of Kybele/Cybele -  Saba = Kybele.  

The following is from John's chapter 'Sheba conquors Kybele'.  It's a difficult read, but chock full of stuff with mind bending ramifications.   While reading realize that the latin name for horse is Caballo/Cavallo, very close to Kabbalah.  The horse was first domesticated in modern Iran, in an area of ancient Elam called Kerman - Kerman is very close to Herman, Hermes etc., Mt. Herman being Mt. Sion in Syria, the gate through which the fallen angels fell.  Kerman on the other hand is a prime candidate for Aratta, the unidentified land of riches which was the original home of the goddess Innana...  

QuoteIt's interesting that Zagreus was cut into pieces with a knife by Titans (Dedanites?), this having the meaning that a single peoples was scattered in many directions so as to make many branches (and such were the Apiru as per historical documents, clinging to various peoples/rulers wherever they found acceptance). And so I went to a website explaining Zagreus, and when I came across the phrase written by Strabo, "...Aeskhines' mother and Aeskhines himself...", my mind focused in because I had been looking for such a term to describe the Ashkenazi Hebrews of Iran, for it was in Iran that the Ashkenazi Aryans lived, and so I expected that the proto-Kabala Hebrews had mixed with them there. Ashkenaz was the literal brother of Togarmah, and they were literal sons of Gomer (Genesis 10:3), for we can't compare the literal approach of the Bible to the non-literal approach of mythology.

I also noticed the spelling of "Aeskhines," starting with "Aes" as it does, and wondered if the Aesir pantheon of Scandinavia wasn't from this very Hebrew-Aryan mix. I was about to be proven correct within minutes, for immediately afterward, in the same Strabo sentence, there was this that caught my eye : "...when [Aeskhines' mother] conducted initiations, that [Aeskhines] joined her in leading the Dionysiac march, and that many a time he cried out 'evoe saboe,' and 'hyes attes, attes hyes'; for these words are in the ritual of Sabazios [Zagreos] and the Mother... - Strabo, Geography 10.3.18" (Zagreos brackets not mine).

http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html (http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html)

I stared at that cry. What did it mean. I went searching online to find the meaning because it wasn't given in the article. I couldn't find the translation. But as I stared at the phrase, knowing that "attes" was Attis, it hit me like a ton of bullion that "saboe" was Kybele! And when I saw that Zagreus was the same as Sabazios, it was like when a man searches for pecans under a pecan tree, months after harvest when nuts are scarce, and when he sees one and stoops to pick it up, he looks forward and sees two more, and as he picks them up he looks slightly to the side and sees four more. Then he looks up and sees that he is directly under a pay-load branch that had held its fruit for an extra-ordinary span of time.

For my new project, terms like "Saboe" and "Sabazios" were golden, for they are easily discernible as Sheba terms. Kybele was Sheba, or so I thought at first. In reading on, I realized that the Kybele cult was instead taken over by Sheba Hebrews. However, this does not exclude the possibility that the Kybele cult had itself been founded by an earlier wave of Shebeans into Phrygia, though Dedanites (from northern Syria/Asshur) may have been superior at first.

I went immediately to an article on Sabazios, and learned that the term is to be likely understood as Saba-Zeus or Saba-Dios, and that the Romans viewed it as the cult of "Jupiter Sabazius." The website went on to point out that it was Jews in particular who were attached to Jupiter Sabazius. For example, Jews of Rome were expelled for propagating that cult. The website author shares that moderns do not know the reason that Romans singled out the Jews as pertaining to the cult. I also read the following at the same site: "Plutarch (''Symposium''. iv. 6) maintained that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius."
http://bvio.ngic.re.kr/Bvio/index.php/Sabazios (http://bvio.ngic.re.kr/Bvio/index.php/Sabazios)

That's when it started to hit me: ancients knew that Kybele was a Hebrew entity. So why don't we have the same view today? Because, the Galli-Kabeiri cult contributed much to the blood of Gauls, Romans, Celts, Germanics, Russians, and others who didn't wish to know their Hebrew roots but instead emphasized the Aryan side of their Thracian/Phrygian blood.

But before learning the above near the end of the article, I learned what was near the start:
"Though the Greeks associated Phrygian Sabazios with Zeus, representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power."
Gosh, I realized i may have been correct in my deduction made earlier that evening, that Kabalists had been closely connected to the horse. In fact, the way in which the article went on the describe the horseman, it is fairly evident that it is referring to THE Horseman of Thrace, especially since the wife of Hephaistos, styled "Cabeiro," was said to be a Thracian. The Thracian Horseman is thought to be Ares, the (I think, Amazonian) dragon.

The article then connected the Sabazios horseman to the Macedonians, and that squared with my theory that Macedonians were Edoni, for my theory is that the peoples who founded the Kabeiri cult, from the Guti of Iran, became the Edoni/Getae of Thrace.

After the article revealed that Kybele was the Lunar Bull, it said, "Sabazios' relations with [Kybele] may be surmised in the way that his horse places a hoof on the head of the bull." That implies a take-over of the Kybele cult by Shebeans. But behold the following similar theme: "The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns..." If I'm correct in interpreting the "chthon" term as the Cutha Hebrews from Chaldee, the statement would appear to depict the Kybele cult over-taken by the Shebean horseman.

The article goes on to show Sabazios ties to the Lydians and their kin, and so here we are again at the root of the Etruscans (to be read as "of the Ruski") who founded the Redones, but also at the root of their "brothers," the Latins. That is, Sheba is that root. I knew I was in for a shocker when I was first Made Aware (i.e. from Above) that Nahor had something to do with the dragon line, but for all of western Europe to be from the loins of Abraham, it put a whole new perspective on God's "many nations" prophecy. Something tells me that Eastern Europe, known throughout the ages as Byzantium, is predominantly from Buz, son of Nahor (brother of Abraham). Zowie, if this doesn't send a shiver down your spine, just to think of it. In support of the Nahorite Buzi becoming eastern Europe, the historical Neuri, who lived with the Boudini, are thought to have formed the Slavs!

And so I now have a huge area, that of Dionysus, to explore for key words linking back to Iranian/Akkadian Hebrews, for: "Much later, the Greek encyclopedia Sudas (10th Century CE?) flatly states 'Sabazios...is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein.' Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos [becomes] Sabazios" (dots and brackets not mine).

http://www.tribwatch.com/sheba.htm (http://www.tribwatch.com/sheba.htm)

Its also worth mentioning that Sabazios was likely the main inspiration for St. George the dragon slayer, a legend most associated with the Caucasus (and from whom Georgia gets its name) - though George's alleged birthplace was Lydda in the Levant.   Lydda???   Evokes Lydia - near Troy where Mt. Ida, the home of Kybele and where Dardanus allegedly settled - as well as Leto, mother of Apollo and Artemis.  Leto has been compared with the "Great Mother" by her throne and spindle (Pindar), and Apollo and Artemis are closely tied to the "wolf" peoples of the Black Sea (Hyperborea?), i.e. the Thracians and Phrygians.  I try not to reference wikipedia too often, but this is enlightening (article on Leto):

QuoteWhen Hera, the most conservative of goddesses — for she had the most to lose in changes to the order of nature —[17] discovered that Leto was pregnant and that Zeus was the father, she realized that the offspring would cement the new order. She was powerless to stop the flow of events. "Latona for her intrigue with Zeus was hunted by Hera over the whole earth, till she came to Delos and brought forth first Artemis, by the help of whose midwifery she afterwards gave birth to Apollo."[18] Hera banned Leto from giving birth on "terra firma", the mainland, any island at sea, or any place under the sun[19]. Antoninus Liberalis is not alone in hinting that Leto came down from the land of the Hyperboreans in the guise of a she-wolf, or that she sought out the "wolf-country" of Lycia, formerly called Tremilis, which she renamed to honour wolves that had befriended her[20] for her denning. Another late source, Aelian, also links Leto with wolves and Hyperboreans...

So here's how I read that - Leto coming down from "Hyperborea" (future Troad), mating with Zeus and, over the protestations of Hera giving birth to Apollo and Artemis (gods of the wolf/boar peoples of Anatolia and Thrace) simply parallels the merging of the Cult of Kybele with the Greek pantheon,  giving rise to the hybrid Cult of Saba-zios.   This would have been the religion of the future leaders of the tribes which became the Vikings and Franks.  Can it be mere coincidence that the Council on Foreign Relations mimicks the ancient Sabazios cult with its inner circle of elites while their logo displays what appears to be Sabazios the horseman?

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6167/cfrlogo.jpg)

Quote from: "uroko"The CURRENT ruling elite are not descended from Romans - nor Greeks (most of them) ... they are descended from Trojans.

Well, if you define the Trojan Elites then we are really talking about the Phoenician Elites (punics : p*n*cs :synonym: phoenicians : P*n*c*s = pncs ).

- All of this have/had a hidden touch of symbolics cosmographics logical issues related to it -

Take i e the Name Europa

Europa (Greek Εὐρώπη) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage in Greek mythology, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology))

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Europa.jpg/170px-Europa.jpg)

Go through all the Greek Mythology and you'll discover the hidden hand of the canaani magi bloodlines

The same as well with the Trojan War

(http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/n/E/TrojanWarHeroes.gif)

Technically, we aren't sure if the Trojan War really happened.

According to Herodotus, who is the closest thing we have to a 'historian' of ancient greece, the war started over bride-stealing. Herodotus claims to have been told this by the Persians, who had better records, because they had writing longer before the Greeks developed it. So he tells the Persian view of the Trojan side of the war.
Still, none of those records have actually survived to the present day, so we really don't know.

Bride-stealing was pretty common at the time. Ships would go raiding and take back booty and slave, including women. But it was usually lower class women.

However, at some point it escalated to tit-for-tat stealing of noble women. Supposedly the Phoenicians started it by stealing Io - who was a Greek princess. The Greeks have a whole myth about Io being turned into a cow and taken to Egypt, but according to Herodotus, the Persians claim she was actually kidnapped by Phoenician traders and ended up as a slave in Egypt.

(http://www.dl.ket.org/webmuseum/wm/paint/auth/correggio/io.jpg)

The Greeks then retaliated by stealing Europa, who was a Phoenician woman of high lineage. There's a mythological version of her story as well.

(http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/P/X/2/MoreauEuropa_and_the_Bull.jpg)

Then the Greeks stole Medea - a princess of Colchis. In the myth Medea goes with Jason voluntarily, but (according to Herotodus) the Persians say that the Colcians considered it a kidnapping, so the Greeks were regarded as having taken disproportiate revenge.

(http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/190328/1/Jason-Swearing-Eternal-Affection-To-Medea,-1742-43.jpg)

Then Paris (Alexandros) of Troy stole Helen in revenge for Medea. But Helen was not just a noble woman, she was married to the King of Sparta. Which was two steps too far - stealing not just a noble woman, but a married one, and the Queen of Sparta at that. So the Greeks all banded together to get her back and take revenge for her being stolen.

(http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/blogfiles/la-revolucion-de-las-mariposas/helenayparis.jpg)

Herodotus' account of the Persian's version also says that Io went voluntarily (supposedly because she was havign an affair with the ships' captain) and that Helen actually was detained in Egypt on the way back to Troy (supposedly because the Egyptians were appalled by what Paris had done). So they argue that the war was unjustified from the Trojan's perspective, since there wasn't any reason to get revenge for Io and Helen was never at Troy anyway. You can take that or leave it.

Source(s):
Herodotus, The Histories

QuoteWhat is the true reason of Trojan War? (Link to the above short good resume)
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:MkYgexoKWtkJ:answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20090301215148AAV0Oq1+Troja+phoenicia&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk

I was posting earlier this morning about the canaani phoenicians here :

viewtopic.php?f=38&p=41202#p41202 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&p=41202#p41202)


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QuoteOh, I forgot to respond about the Tarot.  Incredibly interesting.

Please, forget about the traditional Tarot for a while http://www.australianparanormalsociety.com/news/wp-content/uploads/bodettarot.jpg

The traditional Tarot  was created to do on purpose the deploying of the Imperial Arts of Superstition, Fantasy and Deception among the slaves. The real Tarot (Tarocchi of Mantegna) was a  intend  to introduce, to brought, year 1465 AD, in Symbolic form, the vital learnings from Antiquity in respect of liberal Arts & Sciences. The Liberal Arts denoted the education proper to a free man (Latin: liberus, "free"), unlike the education proper to a slave.

Bottom Line The Mantegna Tarot was the real Mccoy. The other one is the false one, created in order to destroy the real one.

The (Kabbalah) Tarot was created by the Kabbalistic gatekeepers to usurpate the role of the Real Tarot (Tarocchi of Mantegna) wich Cards were representing (Among other archetypes like the Seven Virtues etc ) the Real knowledge of Antiquity (Trivium=->Gramma->Dialectic->Rethoric ; Quadrivium=Geometry->Arithmetic->Music->Astronomy). They almost succeeded doing that. Just very few people now know of the real Tarot (Tarocchi of Mantegna) and of the importance of the knowledge encapsulated in those very precious cards.

(http://luminescencias.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Musica-776610.jpg)

Why was it necessary to usurp/hide the knowledge reflected in those Cards ? Because the strugle against the Empire always has/had been a war happening in the world of Ideas, The Seven liberal Arts (a freeman's education)  create a Rational Critical Thinking Human Being, that is the opposite of what the Empire want to create: a Person/Slave guided by superstition, not based on reason, knowledge, or experience = Rule by Deception.

Tarocchi of Mantegna - The Tarot Of Mantegna :

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg3.jpg)
(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg1.jpg)
(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg2.jpg)
(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg4.jpg)
(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg5.jpg)

Quotehttp://www.levity.com/alchemy/mantegna.html

In Short

ABOUT THE LIBERAL ARTS & SCIENCES

the seven liberal arts and sciences

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Septem-artes-liberales_Herrad-von-Landsberg_Hortus-deliciarum_1180.jpg/457px-Septem-artes-liberales_Herrad-von-Landsberg_Hortus-deliciarum_1180.jpg)
Hi Resolution Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... m_1180.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Septem-artes-liberales_Herrad-von-Landsberg_Hortus-deliciarum_1180.jpg)

Based on the types of studies that were pursued in the Classical world, the Seven Liberal Arts became codified in late antiquity by such writers as Varro and Martianus Capella. In medieval times, the Seven Liberal Arts offered a canonical way of depicting the realms of higher learning.

(http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/winter2009/images/features/photoessay/03-libarts.jpg)

http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/winter2009/images/features/photoessay/03-libarts.jpg

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4nUK2JSKPL0/SKqGQBEuMCI/AAAAAAAADEc/a7C8jyjRClE/s400/trivium%2Bquadrivium.jpg)

The Liberal Arts were divided into the Trivium ("the three roads") and the Quadrivium ("the four roads").

The Trivium consisted of:

Grammar
Rhetoric
Logic

 
The Quadrivium consisted of:

Arithmetic -- Number in itself
Geometry -- Number in space
Music, Harmonics, or Tuning Theory -- Number in time
Astronomy or Cosmology -- Number in space and time

(http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit3/unit3.table.gif)

 
The medival Quadrivium thus followed the division of mathematics made by the Pythagoreans. Recently, mathematics has been defined as "the study of patterns in space and time," which very much resembles the ancient Pythagorean understanding of mathematics.


(http://www.oldenwilde.org/oldenwilde/pix/4via4.gif)

http://www.oldenwilde.org/oldenwilde/members/diu/quadriv.html

It has become almost universally accepted as the received wisdom of the Western esoteric tradition that the tarot card images embody a system derived from the Jewish Kabbalah. This view seems to derive from the mid-nineteenth century French Occult revival, and particularly was promulgated by Eliphas Levi and later incorporated through Westcott, Mathers and Waite in the teachings of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn from which our twentieth century tradition of occultism has been derived.
I would, however, like us to pause and consider for a moment, before we return to the established view, the implications of the regrettably neglected early tarot pack, the Tarocchi of Mantegna. This is one of the earliest known tarot or Tarocchi packs, being dated to c.1465, contemporary with the Visconti-Sforza deck of the mid-fifteenth century which is recognised as the earliest tarot. (Some authorities suggest that the Tarocchi of Mantegna may be earlier than the Visconti-Sforza.)
Little is known of the Tarocchi of Mantegna and what we do know entirely contradicts it name. Most scholars are of the opinion that this Tarocchi has been wrongly attributed to Andreas Mantegna (1431-1506) the painter and printmaker of the School of Padua, and rather are to be seen as emanating from the School of Ferrara. They are not a 'Tarocchi' pack in the true sense of that technical term, and they are not cards but a set of prints. Kenneth Clark, the well known art historian of the Renaissance, attributes them to a Parrasio Michele, Master of the School of Ferrara. They consist of a set of 50 finely executed engravings divided into five decades, which could be characterised as:-

1 The archetypal social stations of humanity;
2 The nine Muses and Apollo;
3 The Liberal Arts;
4 The Cardinal Virtues;
5 The Heavenly Spheres.

The symbolism of these cards, or perhaps we should say 'emblematic figures', would seem to derive from the Hermetic tradition which is now recognised as underlying the Italian Renaissance of the mid-fifteenth century. It was during this period that the Platonic Academies of the Medici's were set up and Ficino and other scholars began translating texts such as the Corpus Hermeticum and the works of Plato, some of which were brought to the Court of Florence from Constantinople by Gemistus Plethon (c.1355-1450), a Greek scholar who was probably an initiate of a 'Platonic' Mystery School in the East. This reconstruction of hermetic and neoplatonic esotericism is reflected in such ideas as the Muses, the Liberal Arts, the Cardinal Virtues, and the Heavenly Spheres, and it is my view that the Tarocchi of Mantegna should be seen as an 'emblem book' of this hermetic current. The fact that its designs show parallels with the later tarot decks should therefore be of the greatest interest both to students of tarot and of Hermeticism.

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg1.jpg)

There is in this sequence both a reflection of the social conditions of humankind and also the stages of an inner development, from the lowly 'beggar' state of soul, to the fully spiritualised 'Pope' facet of the soul.
Interestingly, these fit well onto the tree of life diagram corresponding to the sephiroth quite tightly, but can also equally well be tied symbolically to the Pythagorean 'Tetractys' or pyramid.

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg6.jpg)

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg2.jpg)

The second decade consists of images of the nine muses and Apollo. These muses preside over certain arts and instruments of these arts.

Calliope    'Beautiful voiced'     epic poetry          Trumpet
                                   and eloquence        stylus

Urania      'Heavenly'             astrology            compass and
                                                        celestial globe

Terpsichore 'she who loves         lyric poetry         lyre or cithera
            dancing'               and dance

Erato       'arouser of desire'    erotic or            tambourine
                                   love poetry

Polihymnia  'many hymns'           heroic hymns         lyre or
                                   mimic art            portative organ

Thelia      'the festive'          comedy and           violin
                                   pastoral poetry      mask of comedy

Melpomene   'the singer'           tragedy              horn
                                                        mask of tragedy

Euterpe     'giver of joy'         music and            double flute
                                   lyric poetry

Clio        'giver of fame'        history              scroll

Apollo

This group represents the archetypal sources of creative inspiration for the soul, and these muses work in the realm of the imagination. The soul can draw upon these ten different inner spiritual resources for its inspiration and transmutation.

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg3.jpg)

The third group consist of the Seven Liberal Arts with the addition of Poetry, Philosophy and Theology to bring the number up to ten. The Liberal Arts lay at the basis of scholasticism and consist of the Trivium of Grammar, Rhetoric and Dialectic, which trained the mind in the use of language, and the Quadrivium of Geometry, Arithmetic, Music and Astronomy, which four constituted the domain of medieval science. Each of these bear a symbol

Grammar       File and Vase
Logic         Veiled Dragon
Rhetoric      Sword
Geometry      Circle, Square, Triangle
Arithmetic    Coins or counters
Music         Flute
Poetry        Flute and a Vase
Philosophy    Arrow and Shield (Athene figure)
Astrology     Sphere of Stars and pointer (Angelic figure)
Theology      Sphere of Heaven and Earth (Androgyne figure)

This group are the archetypes that work behind human thinking.

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg4.jpg)

The fourth decade consist of the seven Cardinal Virtues appearing as female figures together with three Spirits (or Genius') of Life (or the Sun), Time and the Cosmos, these being shown as male Angels, each carrying a symbol. The seven Cardinal Virtues also have animal figures beside them.

Iliaco       Sun disc
Chronico     Ouroboros Dragon
Cosmico      Heavenly Globe
Temperance   Two vases                 Dog, Cat, weasel, or stoat/ermine
Prudence     Mirror                    Dragon
Strength     Sceptre                   Lion
Justice      Sword and scales          Crane
Charity      Wallet, offering charity  Pelican
Hope         in attitude of prayer     phoenix
Faith        Chalice and Host          Dog

These represent that which works in the higher soul of humanity as the virtues dwelling in the conscience. As the aspiring soul develops towards inward perfection, rising to an awareness of the spiritual genius behind the life force (the Sun), Time and Space, then there will inwardly develop from the seed of conscience rooted in the soul, the Virtues, which will unfold and grow from within to express themselves in ones outer actions.

(http://www.levity.com/alchemy/images/manteg5.jpg)

The final decanate is that of the heavenly spheres - the seven planets and the three higher spheres each having a symbol.

Luna           Moon disc
Mercury        Flute Caduceus with two
               intertwined dragons     Cock
Venus          Seashell                Ducks
Sun            Sun disc                Scorpion Crabs
Mars           Sword                   Dogs (hunting)
Jupiter        Arrow (thunderbolt)     Eagle
Saturn         Scythe                  Ouroboros
Eighth Sphere  Starry Disc
Prime Mover    Empty Sphere
First Cause    Cosmos

This represents the highest spiritual principles working as the planetary forces behind all the aspects of the world.

To summarise:-
The First Decade    Stations of       Archetypal powers in the outer
                    Humanity          world of humanity externalised in
                                      social forms
The Second Decade   Muses             Archetypal powers of in the imagination
                                      of humanity, expressing themselves
                                      in artistic creation
The Third Decade    Liberal Arts      Archetypal powers in human thinking
                                      expressing themselves in the patterns
                                      of human thought
The Fourth Decade   Cardinal Virtues  Archetypal patterns in the conscience
                                      of humanity expressing themselves in
                                      the inner development and spiritual
                                      refinement of the soul
The Fifth Decade    Cosmic Spheres    Archetypal patterns in the Cosmic
                                      order expressing themselves in all
                                      facets of the universe

So we have here the cosmic spheres of the fifth decade representing the Macrocosm and the first decade being a kind of reflection of this in the Microcosm, while between these two polarities are found the Muses, Liberal Arts and Cardinal Virtues, the channels through which the soul experiences the archetypal powers lying behind its feeling, thinking and willing, and can thereby develop its imaginative, intellectual and spiritual gifts. This reflects the Renaissance ideal propounded in the Neoplatonic academies which inspired artists, writers and musicians, and brought great works of the creative human spirit into being which transformed the outer restrictive social forms of the medieval period and gave a new impulse of freedom to the spiritual seeking of humanity.
So it should be obvious that these cards and their symbolism arise out of a Neoplatonic and hermetic current, but they should not be seen as entirely limited symbolically to this period or set of ideas. For this very early Tarocchi of Mantegna designs, through reflecting this hermetic system of ideas also may have provided the archetypal forms for some of the later and more familiar tarot packs. We note certain obvious parallels.

Mantegna           Modern tarot       Mantegna         Modern tarot

1 BEGGAR           FOOL               36 FORTEZA       STRENGTH
3 ARTISAN          MAGUS              37 IUSTICIA      JUSTICE
B KING             HIEROPHANT         43 VENUS         THE LOVERS
9 EMPEROR          EMPEROR            44 THE SUN       THE SUN
10 POPE            PRIESTESS          45 MARTE         THE CHARIOT  
(N.B.the Pope here                    46 JUPITER       THE WORLD
appears female)                       47 SATURNO       DEATH
27 POESIO          THE STAR
34 TEMPERANCE      TEMPERANCE

So could it not be that our present day tarot cards should perhaps be seen as arising out of the hermetic ideas at the foundation of the Renaissance, rather then from the Jewish Kaballah? I believe this view requires, indeed demands, some attention, even though it might upset the established and ingrained ideas of twentieth century occultism.

Quotehttp://www.levity.com/alchemy/mantegna.html

(http://www.the-orb.net/wemsk/liberal-arts.gif)

Seven liberal arts. There is no division on trivium and quadrivium. The first page. Above at the left the Grammar punishes the pupil before the whole class (four pupils seem to amuse oneself with the scene). On the right the astronomy is represented as the astronomer, who looks at skies (at the Moon, the Sun and stars) to do his recordings. Below Arithmetics with an abacus and Geometry with a compasses:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Rotschild_canticles_Septem_artes_liberales_1.jpg)


Seven liberal arts. There is no division on trivium and quadrivium. The second page. In the top part Music plays on two musical instruments, her left hand is touching the keyboard (helped by the boy) and her right hand rings a bell. Below at the left the Logic learns one student, and on the right Rhetoric, folded her legs, two students:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Rotschild_canticles_Septem_artes_liberales_2.jpg)

The Lost Tools of Learning

http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts

The Seven Virtues

(http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/winter2009/images/features/photoessay/07-7virtues.jpg)

http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/winter2009/images/features/photoessay/07-7virtues.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts

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Pretty interesting stuff.   I recommend watching the Golden Compass, or reading 'His Dark Materials' from where it came.  I don't know much about the author Phillip Pullman, but he is a 'humanist, doctorate holder from Oxford, and a member of the National Secular Society', and I suspect he knows far more about the hidden cults of history than he lets on.   Notice the 'good-guy' tribe in the Golden Compass are called 'Gyptians'.  The armored bears of the north are another curious them - 'bear' is an animal in the 'bower' class, that is an animal one kills with a bow and arrow and hence close phoenetically to boar and bow.  Bears are prevalent on the coats of Germanic houses (and Albert "the Bear" was an important figure).  Bears (Ursa major and Ursa minor) also guard the dragon in the night sky, and the whole 'north' thing evokes hyperboria.  Then you have the daemons, the battle against the church, the whole symbology of the thing is a fun romp in the world of 'kabbala oriented' "humanist" idealogy, to which every group connected to the dragon cult subscribe (Rosicrucianism, Masonry, etc.) and their collective battle with the Catholic Church since the days of the Merovingians.  In this context, the elite heirs of special knowlege and traditions which has grown out of the various illumini (for lack of a better word) related cults probably see themselves and their cause as just.   Pirates were ahead of their time from a governing standpoint, they were largly democratic, booty was fairly shared and captains were often voted in and voted out.  Many of the founding fathers were masons and certainly saw it as a force for good.  Every illuminatist and Templar who challenged and was crushed by the Catholic Church certainly saw their own cause as the just and enlightened one, while also believing in their own superiority.  

Things quickly got convoluted and confused, from our standpoint looking back at history the lines are blurred - The Catholic Church, a corrupt racket in its own right, has been infiltrated by illuminatists (starting with Innocent II who granted the Templars their special privileges, if memory serves) and made a turncoat to varying degrees throughout history. Also the ideals of humanism/illuminatism have been increasingly twisted. The life-giving properties of the dragon has been lost - you can still see them in China, where the dragon is one (male) aspect of a partnership which is the epitome of perfect balance in feng-shui, the nurturing female side being the phoenix.  In the west on the other hand the conquering cultures associated with the dragon-cults of the Near East have have always been war-driven, and by the time people like the Rothschilds and Cecil Rhodes had come along and risen to power these people had only one thing on their mind - complete control.   At least that's how I see things.

Hope I didn't veer too far away from the Tarot - don't know too much about that (other than the connections between the early Tarot and the Tuatha de Danaan), and I still haven't read all of the above.  Just some thoughts.

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"All I can say is that I don't see the CFR using "horse and snakes" themes in their works. Overall, I just don't see this "theme" throughout the "ages" if you know what I mean. It just stopped in the Roman era. The Babylonian Talmud seems to continue however... even to the present day with a large number of tracts referencing it.  I don't see a religious "Work" that continues the tradition of the Sabazios...I'm just pointing out what I obviously see:

I didn't really respond to this directly.   Firstly, I was a bit drunk at the time and I made those points you responded to a little too authoritatively - some people on forums I've been involved in are quite fond of my drunken posts LoL, but the world is grey and I was a little too matter-of-fact about some things.  

You mention the "horse and snakes", I would counter that St. George the dragon slayer does continue this theme, and also note that Georgia to this day is one of the most fervent supporters of Zionism in the world, and also that their flag is essentially the Crusader flag of Jerusalem.  You mention the Talmud and ask what comparable works extend from the Cult of Sabazios, I would counter that this cult was built on the Kabbalah from the Anatolian side and the Greek Myths on the Greek side - all of which are timeless, if reserved for a minority - which is what one would expect if the cult was based on secret knowledge withheld from its average-joe initiates.  

I'll definitely grant that the Cult of Sabazios was just a blip on the stage of world history - most people have never heard of it.   But in trying to answer my own questions, following links around the net  and reading all sorts of material, I kept running into talk of places like Samothrace, of links between Kabbala and Kybele, of links between Saba/Sabor/Sheba/Sheva names and, not just Kybele, but Sam names ... like Uncle Sam for example, quite an interesting little topic all its own.   I can't remember the details, but there are two urban-legend type explanations for how the US got its "Uncle Sam" characterization - both were written decades after the respective event, and each displays curious tell-tale signs that the stories were simply myth-writing.  In one, if I remember correctly, the anecdote takes place in a town of Troy, and the other revolves around a cavalry regiment of Dragoons.  Hint, dragoon is a wink-nudge reference to the dragon - I imagine the myth-writers have been laughing their @sses off for millenia, waving this stuff in our faces the whole time with only themselves being hip to the lingo.  I love the name 'Gepetto' given to Pinocchio's maker.  Clearly a reference to Japeth and Iapetus (which appear to be equivalent - yet another parallel between biblical figures and Greek figures, which races right back to what I've been saying about Zeus/Ida=Judah, Dardanus=Darda, and the notion that the dragon-elite which made our world split into two branches and parted ways in Egypt, one sub-branch going to Palestine while the other to Greece and on to Anatolia ... this all hinted at over and over in myths and ancient records...), Iapetus being the Greek father of Prometheus - who stole fire from the gods and gave it to man and stands at the ice rink in Rockefeller Center.   - And Pinocchio means pine-nut.   Whahh?  PINE???   Could be totally innocent - after all the puppet/child was made of wood.   But Attis, Kybele's consort was resurrected (one of the first clearly identifiable resurrection themes which many think influenced the narrative of Christ) into a PINE tree.  Now, I don't go nuts (no pun intended) everytime I hear about some figure being associated with the pine tree - but I do sit up when the pine-reference is part of a story about a puppet made by a guy named 'Gepetto' having life breathed into it.    

I'm getting off topic.   To put it simply, I feel like I'm accumulating enough references in my head to recognize things that are significant, maybe even read into various myths somewhat, and as I was getting deep into this stuff I ran across a discussion about the CFR logo, and everyone was convinced that the horseman was one of the four horsemen of the apocolypse, and some even suggested that he was giving the "nazi salute".   I saw differently, I immediately understood that it was Sabazios.   I had just been looking at the many archeological finds of 'hands of Sabazios' in Turkey and surrounding areas with the characteristic extended two fingers and thumb, and had no idea what it signified - and I still don't.   There are no real good images around you can find of the CFR logo, there are basically two, in one it is easy to see that the 4th and 5th fingers are retracted, in the other it is easy to see that there are two fingers extended - but neither conclusively show the Sabazios hand-sign ... so I can't be certain.  But given that the Cult of Sabazios was the first "mystery religion" by which an elite core ran things and withheld secret information from other members, it seemed to me the CFR logo was in fact Sabazios.   The story of the world is NOT Sabazios, again, the cult was just a blip on the world stage.   But it sure looks to me like the CFR thought it important enough to use its horseman as the symbol for its organization.

Whew.

Okay, do you think the Cult of Sabazios could be connected to this:

Thunderbolts of the Gods
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 316220374# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374#)

I've only watched the first part of it so far, but looks really interesting.  

I wanted to ammend my statements, had a chat with a member via PM about the Cult of Sabazios and if it was really the first "mystery religion" - I did read that somewhere, but I was not able to find a source.  The definition I'm going by being, by the way, a cult where an inside circle of priests/initiates guard secret knowlege and partake in rites to the exclusion of others outside the circle.    It appears that the Eleusinian Mysteries fit this description, and predate Sabazios by as much as a thousand years - wikipedia has the origins of the Eleusinian Mysteries at 1600 BCE, which would predate even Cybele ... my bad.    :oops:    Moral, don't believe everything you read.

No worries, uroko.... I think all of us have had our humble moments at TIU... ;)

You might find the film interesting regarding Venus at about 50:00 minutes in. I think in ancient times, the belief that temple "Priests" could prevent electrical discharges across the earth brought them into an "elect" status.

an interesting fact is that sept 16th is the date of the pope/queen summit ............and the date that the Eleusinian Mysteries are celerbrated.

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"No worries, uroko.... I think all of us have had our humble moments at TIU... ;)

You're very kind  :)    I fret about being factually correct in statements, while on the other hand I tend to blurt stuff out unabashedly which support my own take on things - a bad habit, but I'm getting smarter  a little bit at a time.   Hey, I was never good at history and I don't think I was ever really introduced to the Greek Myths in school.  If I was, I must have been sleeping.   :D

I've been playing catch-up over the last few years as I realized that that sort of stuff is actually relevant to me and the world around me.   Not only relevant, but VERY INTERESTING!   If schools taught ANYTHING in a format where the relevance of the subject (world history, Greek myths, Pinocchio???) to the world around us were highlighted instead of hidden, I'm sure history would be much more interesting to many more people ... but that's the whole point, isn't it? - we aren't supposed to learn any of this stuff.   We aren't supposed to learn more that what it takes to do a job and contribute to society (i.e. generate income and pay taxes).    

Kudos for the wealth of information in the many posts above - I'm trying to read/watch it all, I'm probably about half way there.  I really appreciate it, I am WAY interested in all of this, and all of the above links are pin-point on to what I'm chasing.   Thanks to everyone here who has posted in this thread or watched my flick.   But I'm pretty deep into Uroko part 11 (should be done and uploaded in a week or two) and it's taking up all my free time.   (Then I have to go back and fix some things in earlier installments.)  

Anyway, Cheers.   Nice forum, I love being around inquisitive people  :)

Quote from: "mgt23"an interesting fact is that sept 16th is the date of the pope/queen summit ............and the date that the Eleusinian Mysteries are celerbrated.

I've run across these date/numeric correlations so many times it's laughable.  Undoubtedly, the true elite are freaks - they thrive on this stuff, they think its important - they flaunt their symbology in our faces.  Watch Madonna's 'Cherish' video ... mermaids.   (Mer-men?).   I mentioned the Fifth Element and the Golden Compass - that only scratches the surface.   They flaunt their symbology - Osiris' penis as big as a building on the Washingon Mall.  As for numbers, I live in Japan, which is completely decimal - everything is in 10's.  Not in the states, so many things are counted by 12 - a dozen donuts, 12 inches in a foot ... and more internationally, 12 constellations, 12 (or 13?) tribes of Israel, 12 stars on the EU flag, 12 disciples, 12 months in a year (the lunar cycle is 13, as are the number of female menstrual cycles in a year - which related to the "great mother" and its importance, and by extension the Bull, Taurus, whose horns are equivocated with the crescent moon and is so female, to whose bull-headed Molech children were sacrificed) hence the "dark" or "enlightened" number 13.)

I see the relationship between the numbers 12 and 13 as a distinction between the 12 constellations and the (secretive) "13 constellations", the later of which include Draco at the center of the other 12, who rules the heavens.

People have been throwing out all sorts of theories for why the attacks in New York were carried out on '9/11'.

Here's one no one has advanced.   AD 911 was the year of the treaty of Saint Clair-sur-Epte, whereby the Viking and Frank branches made peace, Rollo took a Carolingian wife, and the Normans were born.   Pretty important, considering Rollo's descendent conquered England.  
 ;)

My apologies, I haven't gotten to the bit about Venus and 'electrical charges'.  But my interest is piqued, in relation to the Ark of the Covenant and its alleged conductive properties.  Somebody out there is deep into this bit and has written about the Ark of the Covenant, its gold and its electrical properties - I can 't remember who ???

Quote from: "mgt23"an interesting fact is that sept 16th is the date of the pope/queen summit ............and the date that the Eleusinian Mysteries are celerbrated.

But Lucifer just killed all the old Gods on that TV show supernatural

Quote from: "uroko"Sorry, the Cult of Sabazios is WAY IMPORTANT.   It was the first Cult to establish the rings-within-rings format that Rhodes adopted. It inspired the architecture of Freemasonry.  It's why the CFR logo shows Sabazios.  Sabazios was the world's first "mystery religion", priests at the center in possession of secret knowlege, an inner circle into which only invited initiates can enter and learn the secrets.  That is the model with which our elite rule the world, and it started with the Cult of Sabazios - that's why the CFR logo displays the same.   Look at his (the naked CFR guy's) hand - thumb and 1st two fingers outstretched, last two fingers retracted.  That's the hand of Sabazios - many bronze examples have been dug up - some in Ugarit!!  

No, sorry, the cult of Sabazios it central.  Yeah, the Romans tried to ignore it, they eventually permitted it, but they are NOT central to the history of the current elite.   The CURRENT ruling elite are not descended from Romans - nor Greeks (most of them) ... they are descended from Trojans.

first off read the founding of rome by livy

Sabazios -----> look at the rape story - esoteric

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_o ... bine_Women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women)

this is all made up stuff

but anyway

all created 1500 hundreds

Er, I just finished apologizing for stating mistakenly that the Cult of Sabazios was the first mystery religion.  

Regarding the rape of the Sabines, yes it's all made up - but assumedly not without basis.  Not that the proto-Romans literally took Sabina wives, but that the myth signified the lands of the Sabines coming under Roman control.  That's how I read it at least.

And who were the Sabines? Observe the similarity of terms - Saba, Saboe, Sabine.  The Sabines lived in Italy in the regions of Lazio and Abruzzo. John of 'Tracing Ladon Gog' believes that the Brusse family line originated in Abruzzo.   Lazio is a dragon term ... I've heard the dragon which Jason (of the Golden Fleece) slayed and whose teeth he planted in the ground (very similar to the story of Cadmus slaying the Ares dragon and planting its teeth) referred to as the Laz dragon, assumedly because Colchis (modern Georgia) was once called Lazs or Lazica.  So there's a definite connection between Lazio of Italy and Lazica of the Caucasus, and Lazica/Cochis is where the Corybantes lived.  

The Corybantes are noted as being one of the peoples who introduced Cybele worship to the area and are represented in Greek Myth as two soldiers who bang their shields to drown out the cries of the infant Zeus so his father (Chronus) won't eat him.  This banging of shields is analogous to the noisy percussion accompaniment to the wild drunken (Dionysian inspired) orgies/sacrifice rites of the cult.  The Halybes/Chalybes who were known for their expertise in metalurgy and weapon making lived in Cohchis/Lazica too.  They can be connected to Devon/Cornwall, and their fame as weapon makers has to be why King Arthur's sword is called ExCalibur, Ex for the Exe river, and Calibur for Chalybe/Halybe.   I found the name Chalybonitas on a 19th century map in an interesting place -

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6697/chalybonitas.jpg)  

This tells me that the Halybes of Colchis once lived there - smack dab between Mt. Hazzi  (a center of Ba'al worship on the coast - biblical Mt. Zephon) and Subartu.  Subartu evokes Saba terms, which John believes ultimately trace to Sheba, grandson of Abraham.   This seems to me to be the cornerstone of his research, that the Kabbalah/Cybele cults and many of the "dragon" associated tribes (which eventually gave us conquering people like the Vikings and the Huns as well as a plethora of family lines which have been ruling the planet for a thousand years?) trace (theoretically) to Sheba - and hence to Abraham.   This makes them all essentially Hebrew - but not Israelites, who descend (biblically, allegedly) from Isaac, Sheba's uncle.   I'm not saying it's so, I'm saying that this seems to me to be central to what John (Tracing Ladon Gog) has uncovered.  

I was once skeptical of this alleged link between Sheba, Saba, Subartu (and then there's the Hindu goddess Shiva), as well as links between the 'Saba' terms and 'Sam' terms like Samothrace, Samosata and Sames (the name of a couple of Orontid kings).    No more, not since I stumbled on to a chart showing names of the months in Babylonian, Persian and Hebrew dialects:  

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2964/calendarv.png)

Here's another link ... Subartu evokes Sparta.  The Spartans figure in the myth of the Ares dragon, which Cadmus slays.   He plants the teeth of the dragon and from them sprout Spartan soldiers, code that the Spartans were rooted in the "dragon" cultures of Mesopotamia - undoubtedly in Subartu.   John talks about some of this in this chapter:

http://www.tribwatch.com/opis.htm (http://www.tribwatch.com/opis.htm)

An excerpt:

QuoteOne can for other reasons, in any case, suppose that the Cati were named after the non-Philistine Gittites of Gath, that they moved north, not necessarily to mix with, but to create what would become known as the Phoenicians proper (i.e. to become the "Phoenix" of Greek myth). They then passed through Ugaritic Syria into Cilicia (where the Cati proper lived); then founded Thebe (no "s") in the Troy region, where they set up their Kybele/Sabazios cult; then they named Thebes after their Saba/Sheba designation. As they became the Sparti in the process, one must conclude that Sepharvites were the root of the holy-grail line depicted by Leda the Spartan.

Update Spetember 2006 -- My fellow dragon-bone seeker, Lorri G., emailed me a quote from Josephus...which is found similarly in the first book of Machabees (12:20-22), as follows:

"Arius, king of the Spartans, to Onias, the high priest [of Israel], greeting. It is found in writing concerning the Spartans, and the Jews, that they are brethren, and that they are of the stock of Abraham..."
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ma012.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ma012.htm)

That is, Spartans and Jews were both of the stock of Abraham. This topic had been previously discussed between Israelite and Spartan rulers, and so note that Arius (300ish BC) didn't say -- i.e. he wasn't taught -- that he was from the same stock as Jacob, or Isaac, or any of the 12 tribes, or Moses, or David. But as Sheba was Abraham's grandson (through Keturah; Genesis 25:3), everyone who claims that Spartans were Israelites should re-examine that claim. Sheba was NOT an Israelite, for Israelites went from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob, not Abraham to Sheba. Thank you Lorri, for this makes me much more confident in proclaiming the Spartans as a Hebrew dragon cult. I know that secret/Zionist societies who pride themselves in being from Israelites will reject this finding. End Update.

In writing I assume I'm getting my point across sometimes, but upon re-reading that maybe I didn't.  To be thorough, what I'm getting at is that Saba/Sheba terms like Subartu, Sabine, Sparta and Sabazios are all linked (not the same, but linked), as are they to 'Sam' terms like Samothrace (an island between Greece and Thrace that was a center of Kybele (Cybele) cult activity:

QuoteThe Pantheon of Samothrace

The Pantheon of the Great Gods consists of numerous chthonic deities, primarily predating the arrival of Greek colonists on the island in the 7th century BC, and congregating around one central figure - the Great Mother.
The Great Mother, a goddess often depicted on Samothracian coinage as a seated woman, with a lion at her side. Her original secret name was Axiéros. She is associated with the Anatolian Great Mother, the Phrygian Cybele, and the Trojan Mother Goddess of Mount Ida...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samothrace_temple_complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samothrace_temple_complex)

The link is Great Mother worship.  I find it interesting that the hippopotamus, which was revered in Egypt and linked with the Great Mother for its pregnant appearance, is called Kaba in Japanese.

Also, the land Subartu later became Sophia, the name of the Byzantine version of the 'Great Mother'.   The connections are endless.

...

Uroko,

No need to concern yourself although I believe John Savage, your polite antagonist, has exited the forum via expulsion.  I do appreciate your research and connecting of the historical dots and find nothing unclear in your presentation.  The epigraphy of root word commonalities is a very valid topic and all such efforts assist in painting a clearer picture of history.  Well, er..., at least I think so.

An interesting read in regards to this topic:

Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World

http://books.google.com/books?id=uuJasO ... &q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=uuJasOSDTW0C&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false)


Also this link is important as well:

The Jewish Diaspora in the Hellenistic Period

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3624&p=14733&hilit=greek#p14733 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3624&p=14733&hilit=greek#p14733)

Also a must read:

The first school of thought to create a schism in Christianity was the collection of sects known under the generic name of Gnosticism. In its purer forms Gnosticism aimed at supplementing faith by knowledge of eternal verities and at giving a wider meaning to Christianity by linking it up with earlier faiths. "The belief that the divinity had been manifested in the religious institutions of all nations"103 thus led to the conception of a sort of universal religion containing the divine elements of all.
Gnosticism, however, as the Jewish Encyclopædia points out, "was Jewish in character long before it became Christian."104 M. Matter indicates Syria and Palestine as its cradle and Alexandria as the centre by which it was influenced at the time of its alliance with Christianity. This influence again was predominantly Jewish. Philo and Aristobulus, the leading Jewish philosophers of Alexandria, "wholly attached to the ancient religion of their fathers, both resolved to adorn it with the spoils of other systems and to open to Judaism the way to immense conquests."105 This method of borrowing from other races and religions those ideas useful for their purpose has always been the custom of the Jews. The Cabala, as we have seen, was made up of these heterogeneous elements. And it is here we find the principal progenitor of Gnosticism. The Freemason Ragon gives the clue in the words: "The Cabala is the key of the occult sciences. The Gnostics were born of the Cabalists."106
For the Cabala was much older than the Gnostics. Modern historians who date it merely from the publication of the Zohar by Moses de Leon in the thirteenth century or from the school of Luria in the sixteenth century obscure this most important fact which Jewish savants have always clearly, recognized.107 The Jewish Encyclopædia, whilst denying the certainty of connexion between Gnosticism and the Cabala, nevertheless admits that the investigations of the anti-Cabalist Graetz "must be resumed on a new basis," and it goes on to show that "it was Alexandria of the first century, or earlier, with her strange commingling of Egyptian, Chaldean, Judean, and Greek culture which furnished soil and seeds for that mystic philosophy."108 But since Alexandria was at the same period the home of Gnosticism, which was formed from the same elements enumerated here, the connexion between the two systems is clearly evident. M. Matter is therefore right in saying that Gnosticism was not a defection from Christianity, but a combination of systems into which a few Christian elements were introduced. The result of Gnosticism was thus not to christianize the Cabala, but to cabalize Christianity by mingling its pure and simple teaching with theosophy and even magic. The Jewish Encyclopædia quotes the opinion that "the central doctrine of Gnosticism—a movement closely connected with Jewish mysticism—was nothing else than the attempt to liberate the soul and unite it with God"; but as this was apparently to be effected "through the employment of mysteries, incantations, names of angels," etc., it will be seen how widely even this phase of Gnosticism differs from Christianity and identifies itself with the magical Cabala of the Jews.
Indeed, the man generally recognized as the founder of Gnosticism, a Jew commonly known as Simon Magus, was not only a Cabalist mystic but avowedly a magician, who with a band of Jews, including his master Dositheus and his disciples Menander and Cerinthus, instituted a priesthood of the Mysteries and practised occult arts and exorcisms.109 It was this Simon of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles that he "bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: to whom they all gave heed from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God," and who sought to purchase the power of the laying on of hands with money. Simon, indeed, crazed by his incantations and ecstasies, developed megalomania in an acute form, arrogating to himself divine honours and aspiring to the adoration of the whole world. According to a contemporary legend, he eventually became sorcerer to Nero and ended his life in Rome.110


Cubricus or Corbicius, the founder of Manicheism, was born in Babylonia about the year A.D. 216. Whilst still a child he is said to have been bought as a slave by a rich widow of Ctesiphon, who liberated him and on her death left him great wealth. According to another story—for the whole history of Manes rests on legends—he inherited from a rich old woman the books of a Saracen named Scythianus on the wisdom of the Egyptians. Combining the doctrines these books contained with ideas borrowed from Zoroastrianism, Gnosticism, and Christianity, and also with certain additions of his own, he elaborated a philosophic system which he proceeded to teach. Cubricus then changed his name to Mani or Manes and proclaimed himself the Paraclete promised by Jesus Christ. His followers were divided into two classes—the outer circle of hearers or combatants, and the inner circle of teachers or ascetics described as the Elect. As evidence of their resemblance with Freemasons, it has been said that the Manicheans made use of secret signs, grips, and passwords, that owing to the circumstances of their master's adoption they called Manes "the son of the widow" and themselves "the children of the widow," but this is not clearly proved. One of their customs is, however, interesting in this connexion. According to legend, Manes undertook to cure the son of the King of Persia who had fallen ill, but the prince died, whereupon Manes was flayed alive by order of the king and his corpse hanged up at the city gate. Every year after this, on Good Friday, the Manicheans carried out a mourning ceremony known as the Bema around the catafalque of Manes, whose real sufferings they were wont to contrast with the unreal sufferings of Christ.
The fundamental doctrine of Manicheism is Dualism—that is to say, the existence of two opposing principles in the world, light and darkness, good and evil—founded, however, not on the Christian conception of this idea, but on the Zoroastrian conception of Ormuzd and Ahriman, and so perverted and mingled with Cabalistic superstitions that it met with as vehement denunciation by Persian priests as by Christian Fathers. Thus, according to the doctrine of Manes, all matter is absolute evil, the principle of evil is eternal, humanity itself is of Satanic origin, and the first human beings, Adam and Eve, are represented as the offspring of devils.124 Much the same idea may be found in the Jewish Cabala, where it is said that Adam, after other abominable practices, cohabited with female devils whilst Eve consoled herself with male devils, so that whole races of demons were born into the world. Eve is also accused of cohabiting with the Serpent.125 In the Yalkut Shimoni it is also related that during the 130 years that Adam lived apart from Eve, "he begat a generation of devils, spirits, and hobgoblins."126 Manichean demonology thus paved the way for the placation of the powers of darkness practised by the Euchites at the end of the fourth century and later by the Paulicians, the Bogomils, and the Luciferians.
So it is in Gnosticism and Manicheism that we find evidence of the first attempts to pervert Christianity.

http://iamthewitness.com/books/Nesta.H. ... s.htm#ch01 (http://iamthewitness.com/books/Nesta.H.Webster/Secret.Societies.and.Subversive.Movements.htm#ch01)

QuoteWords of Antipa, heir of one of the Nine Founders: "The temples of Rome and of Achaea recorded indelible honor for our Association. We owe them on immense favor. For they have won innumerable pagans, no less than those the impostors won with their magic force. Those two temples surpassed this temple of ours(38) when they killed Peter and his brother, Andrew, deserving to perpetuate their memory in the pages of time. The dangerousness of those two preachers was noteworthy in their marvelous sermons, in their power of attraction and in their indescribable eloquence, in such a way that if it were not for the battle of those two temples thousands of our nation would have been converted to the Impostor's religion. The two great temples must be glorified by every mysterious one, just as Hiram himself. May God protect them! They crucified Peter and Andrew just as the Impostor was crucified. They frightened the people and paralyzed the movement of Jesus' (followers) for a long time. We must follow the effective plan of those two temples to attain our goal, that is, the life of the Jewish religion; and woe to us if we fall back, for our works will be lost without our achieving our purpose.


"For that reason I suggest the distribution of a general publication among all the temples, applauding the work of the temples of Rome and of Achaea, ordering all the mysterious ones to take them as an example. And in order to immortalize their memory we will make the day, November 30 of each year, the day of those two temples, celebrating it with all joy for its having been the day on which Andrew the Impostor was crucified."


Antipa's proposal was approved. The publication was written and distributed. The day decreed for the Temple of Achaea was recorded for their having killed Andrew, this death being the fruit of the battle of that temple.(39)
CHAPTER TWENTY-THREE

Quote:
Aaron Abiud, one of the heirs of this manuscript, said: "After the destruction of Jerusalem and our dispersal, we installed our new temple 'Jerusalem' in an unknown place where we remained for several years, our heirs as well, issuing orders without anyone's knowing of our location, not even the affiliate temples themselves. Thus must those 'Who succeed us proceed. They must not announce the place of their see except in case at an urgent necessity as, for example, on receiving energetic protests on behalf, of the presidents of the affiliate temples or in case of revolt against the central orders on the part of the mysterious ones."
CHAPTER TWENTY-SIX

Quote:
The Foundation of Temples in Europe, after the Temple of Rome

Abdon Adoniram said: Our ancestors neglected to mention the name of the founder of the Temple of Rome, but now we will see in the next chapter that he was a descendant of Hiram Abiud. That temple achieved great triumphs that fortified the Association to such a degree that it incited the nine heirs to establish other temples in other kingdoms.
http://heygeorge5.tripod.com/id9.html (http://heygeorge5.tripod.com/id9.html)

What and where was the Temple in Rome?

Quote:
Rome's Jews are Europe's longest surviving Jewish community and occupy a unique place in the history of the Diaspora. Jews have been living in Rome, as well as in other Mediterranean cities, since the 3rd century BCE. Their homeland was overcrowded, and troubled with foreign occupations. As a result, Jews migrated to the other Mediterranean towns, where they formed communities.

The first recorded presence of Jews in Rome is of Maccabees embassadors seeking an alliance with the Roman Senate against the Syrian Greeks who desecrated Jerusalem's Temple. Because of the growing importance and prosperity of Rome, in time the Jewish population increased.

As opposed to the situation resulting from the Roman occupation of Judea, in Rome the Jews were generally tolerated, especially by the rulers. Julius Caesar was known to be their friend.

Following emperor Titus' occupation of Judea and the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the Jews were dispersed in the Roman empire. A part were enslaved as miners in Spain, a part were sold as slaves, and ransomed by the Roman Jews. Titus returned triumphant to Rome with the war booty, which funded the construction of the Coliseum.
http://www.romanhomes.com/your_roman...sh-quarter.htm (http://www.romanhomes.com/your_roman...sh-quarter.htm)

Also from the above link....

Quote:
The anti-Semitic Pope Paul IV in 1555 issued the infamous bull Cum Nimis Absurdum, taking its name from its first words "Since it is absurd" (...and utterly inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery..."). Under the accusation of having exploited the generosity and hospitality of the Christians, the bull practically reduced the Jews to slavery...

The walls of the Ghetto (a word Venetian in origin) were built, separating the Jews from the rest of the society. They lost any property right (they had to rent at high prices even their homes of the ghetto from Christians). They were only allowed to trade second hand objects, and they could not have Christian personnel. Jewish medical doctors could not cure Christians, even if implored to do so. Outside the ghetto, they had to wear the "Jewish sign", to be easily recognized: men had to wear a yellow patch on hats, women wore a yellow kerchief (the sign of prostitutes). They could only live in a few towns of the Papal kingdom, and only one synagogue was allowed in each town.
The above bold may have been in response to

Quote:
In 1492, Chemor, chief Rabbi of Spain, wrote to the Grand Sanhedrin, which had its seat in Constantinople, for advice, when a Spanish law threatened expulsion.2 This was the reply:

" Beloved brethren in Moses, we have received your letter in which you tell us of the anxieties and misfortunes which you are enduring. We are pierced by as great pain to hear it as yourselves.

The advice of the Grand Satraps and Rabbis is the following:

1. As for what you say that the King of Spain 3 obliges you to become Christians: do it, since you cannot do otherwise.

2. As for what you say about the command to despoil you of your property: make your sons merchants that they may despoil, little by little, the Christians of theirs.

3. As for what you say about making attempts on your lives: make your sons doctors and apothecaries, that they may take away Christians' lives.

4. As for what you say of their destroying your syna gogues: make your sons canons and clerics in order that they may destroy their churches.

5. As for the many other vexations you complain of: arrange that your sons become advocates and lawyers, and see that they always mix in affairs of State, that by putting Christians under your yoke you may dominate the world and be avenged on them.

6. Do not swerve from this order that we give you, because you will find by experience that, humiliated as you are, you will reach the actuality of power.

(Signed) PRINCE OF THE JEWS OF CONSTANTINOPLE."

http://crashrecovery.org/Waters/part_2.htm (http://crashrecovery.org/Waters/part_2.htm)

Keep in mind the history of the Cabala:

QuoteIs the Cabala, then, as Gougenot des Mousseaux asserts, older than the Jewish race, a legacy handed down from the first patriarchs of the world?37 We must admit this hypothesis to be incapable of proof, yet it is one that has found so much favour with students of occult traditions that it cannot be ignored. The Jewish Cabala itself supports it by tracing its descent from the patriarchs—Adam, Noah, Enoch, and Abraham—who lived before the Jews as a separate race came into existence. Eliphas Lévi accepts this genealogy, and relates that "the Holy Cabala" was the tradition of the children of Seth carried out of Chaldea by Abraham, who was "the inheritor of the secrets of Enoch and the father of initiation in Israel."38

According to this theory, which we find again propounded by the American Freemason, Dr. Mackey,39 there was, besides the divine Cabala of the children of Seth, the magical Cabala of the children of Cain, which descended to the Sabeists, or star-worshippers, of Chaldea, adepts in astrology and necromancy. Sorcery, as we know, had been practised by the Canaanites before the occupation of Palestine by the Israelites; Egypt India, and Greece also had their soothsayers and diviners. In spite of the imprecations against sorcery contained in the law of Moses, the Jews, disregarding these warnings, caught the contagion and mingled the sacred tradition they had inherited with magical ideas partly borrowed from other races and partly of their own devising. At the same time the speculative side of the Jewish Cabala borrowed from the philosophy of the Persian Magi, of the Neo-Platonists,40 and of the Neo-Pythagoreans. There is, then, some justification for the anti-Cabalists' contention that what we know to-day as the Cabala is not of purely Jewish origin.

Gougenot des Mousseaux, who had made a profound study of occultism, asserts that there were therefore two Cabalas: the ancient sacred tradition handed down from the first patriarchs of the human race; and the evil Cabala, wherein this sacred tradition was mingled by the Rabbis with barbaric superstitions, combined with their own imaginings and henceforth marked with their seal.41 This view also finds expression in the remarkable work of the converted Jew Drach, who refers to—

    The ancient and true Cabala, which ... we distinguish from the modern Cabala, false, condemnable, and condemned by the Holy See, the work of the Rabbis, who have also falsified and perverted the Talmudic tradition. The doctors of the Synagogue trace it back to Moses, whilst at the same time admitting that the principal truths it contains were those known by revelation to the first patriarchs of the world.42

Further on Drach quotes the statement of Sixtus of Sienna, another converted Jew and a Dominican, protected by Pius V:

    Since by the decree of the Holy Roman Inquisition all books appertaining to the Cabala have lately been condemned, one must know that the Cabala is double; that one is true, the other false. The true and pious one is that which ... elucidates the secret mysteries of the holy law according to the principle of anagogy (i.e. figurative interpretation). This Cabala therefore the Church has never condemned. The false and impious Cabala is a certain mendacious kind of Jewish tradition, full of innumerable vanities and falsehoods, differing but little from necromancy. This kind of superstition, therefore, improperly called Cabala, the Church within the last few years has deservedly condemned.43

The modern Jewish Cabala presents a dual aspect—theoretical and practical; the former concerned with theosophical speculations, the latter with magical practices. It would be impossible here to give an idea of Cabalistic theosophy with its extraordinary imaginings on the Sephiroths, the attributes and functions of good and bad angels, dissertations on the nature of demons, and minute details on the appearance of God under the name of the Ancient of Ancients, from whose head 400,000 worlds receive the light. "The length of this face from the top of the head is three hundred and seventy times ten thousand worlds. It is called the 'Long Face,' for such is the name of the Ancient of Ancients."44 The description of the hair and beard alone belonging to this gigantic countenance occupies a large place in the Zoharic treatise, Idra Raba.45

According to the Cabala, every letter in the Scriptures contains a mystery only to be solved by the initiated.46 By means of this system of interpretation passages of the Old Testament are shown to bear meanings totally unapparent to the ordinary reader. Thus the Zohar explains that Noah was lamed for life by the bite of a lion whilst he was in the ark,47 the adventures of Jonah inside the whale are related with an extraordinary wealth of imagination,48 whilst the beautiful story of Elisha and the Shunnamite woman is travestied in the most grotesque manner.49

In the practical Cabala this method of "decoding" is reduced to a theurgic or magical system in which the healing of diseases plays an important part and is effected by means of the mystical arrangement of numbers and letters, by the pronunciation of the Ineffable Name, by the use of amulets and talismans, or by compounds supposed to contain certain occult properties.

All these ideas derived from very ancient cults; even the art of working miracles by the use of the Divine Name, which after the appropriation of the Cabala by the Jews became the particular practice of Jewish miracle-workers, appears to have originated in Chaldea.50 Nor can the insistence on the Chosen People theory, which forms the basis of all Talmudic and Cabalistic writings, be regarded as of purely Jewish origin; the ancient Egyptians likewise believed themselves to be "the peculiar people specially loved by the gods."51 But in the hands of the Jews this belief became a pretension to the exclusive enjoyment of divine favour. According to the Zohar, "all Israelites will have a part in the future world,"52 and on arrival there will not be handed over like the goyim (or non-Jewish races) to the hands of the angel Douma and sent down to Hell.53 Indeed the goyim are even denied human attributes. Thus the Zohar again explains that the words of the Scripture "Jehovah Elohim made man" mean that He made Israel.54 The seventeenth-century Rabbinical treatise Emek ha Melek observes: "Our Rabbis of blessed memory have said: 'Ye Jews are men because of the soul ye have from the Supreme Man (i.e. God). But the nations of the world are not styled men because they have not, from the Holy and Supreme Man, the Neschama (or glorious soul), but they have the Nephesch (soul) from Adam Belial, that is the malicious and unnecessary man, called Sammael, the Supreme Devil.'"55

In conformity with this exclusive attitude towards the rest of the human race, the Messianic idea which forms the dominating theme of the Cabala is made to serve purely Jewish interests. Yet in its origins this idea was possibly not Jewish. It is said by believers in an ancient secret tradition common to other races besides the Jews, that a part of this tradition related to a past Golden Age when man was free from care and evil non-existent, to the subsequent fall of Man and the loss of this primitive felicity, and finally to a revelation received from Heaven foretelling the reparation of this loss and the coming of a Redeemer who should save the world and restore the Golden Age. According to Drach:

    The tradition of a Man-God who should present Himself as the teacher and liberator of the fallen human race was constantly taught amongst all the enlightened nations of the globe. Vetus et constans opinio, as Suetonius says. It is of all times and of all places.56

And Drach goes on to quote the evidence of Volney, who had travelled in the East and declared that—

    The sacred and mythological traditions of earlier times had spread throughout all Asia the belief in a great Mediator who was to come, of a future Saviour, King, God, Conqueror, and Legislator who would bring back the Golden Age to earth and deliver men from the empire of evil.57

All that can be said with any degree of certainty with regard to this belief is that it did exist amongst the Zoroastrians of Persia as well as amongst the Jews. D'Herbelot, quoting Abulfaraj, shows that five hundred years before Christ, Zerdascht, the leader of the Zoroastrians, predicted the coming of the Messiah, at whose birth a star would appear. He also told his disciples that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, that they would be the first to hear of Him, and that they should bring Him gifts.58

Drach believes that this tradition was taught in the ancient synagogue,59 thus explaining the words of St. Paul that unto the Jews "were committed the oracles of God"60:

    This oral doctrine, which is the Cabala, had for its object the most sublime truths of the Faith which it brought back incessantly to the promised Redeemer, the foundation of the whole system of the ancient tradition.61

Drach further asserts that the doctrine of the Trinity formed a part of this tradition:

    Whoever has familiarized himself with that which was taught by the ancient doctors of the Synagogue, particularly those who lived before the coming of the Saviour, knows that the Trinity in one God was a truth admitted amongst them from the earliest times.62

M. Vulliaud points out that Graetz admits the existence of this idea in the Zohar: "It even taught certain doctrines which appeared favourable to the Christian dogma of the Trinity!" And again: "It is incontestable that the Zohar makes allusions to the beliefs in the Trinity and the Incarnation."63 M. Vulliaud adds: "The idea of the Trinity must therefore play an important part in the Cabala, since it has been possible to affirm that 'the characteristic of the Zohar and its particular conception is its attachment to the principle of the Trinity,'"64 and further quotes Edersheim as saying that "a great part of the explanation given in the writings of the Cabalists resembles in a surprising manner the highest truths of Christianity."65 It would appear, then, that certain remnants of the ancient secret tradition lingered on in the Cabala. The Jewish Encyclopædia, perhaps unintentionally, endorses this opinion, since in deriding the sixteenth-century Christian Cabalists for asserting that the Cabala contained traces of Christianity, it goes on to say that what appears to be Christian in the Cabala is only ancient esoteric doctrine.66 Here, then, we have it on the authority of modern Jewish scholars that the ancient secret tradition was in harmony with Christian teaching. But in the teaching of the later synagogue the philosophy of the earlier sages was narrowed down to suit the exclusive system of the Jewish hierarchy, and the ancient hope of a Redeemer who should restore Man to the state of felicity he had lost at the Fall was transformed into the idea of salvation for the Jews alone67 under the ægis of a triumphant and even an avenging Messiah.68 It is this Messianic dream perpetuated in the modern Cabala which nineteen hundred years ago the advent of Christ on earth came to disturb.

http://iamthewitness.com/books/Nesta.H. ... s.htm#ch01 (http://iamthewitness.com/books/Nesta.H.Webster/Secret.Societies.and.Subversive.Movements.htm#ch01)

Great stuff - I had never heard of Nesta Webster.   :up:

Quote from: "uroko"Great stuff - I had never heard of Nesta Webster.   :up:

(http://www.antiqillum.org/images/bg/nesta03.jpg)

Yes, Nesta Webster is great, she wrote several books.

(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSwebsterN.JPG)

Books

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Nesta+Webster+pdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=581c98b851fa30a2

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Nesta_H_Webster.png/150px-Nesta_H_Webster.png)

The Chevalier De Boufflers. A Romance of the French Revolution, London, John Murray, 1910. Reprints: 1916 ; 1920 ; 1924 ; 1925 ; E.P. Dutton & Co., New York, 1926.

Britain's Call to Arms: an appeal to our women, London, Hugh Rees, 1914.

The Sheep Track. An aspect of London society, London, John Murray, 1914.

The French terror and Russian bolshevism, London, Boswell Printing & Publbishing Co., 1920 [?]. OCLC: 22692582

World revolution. The plot against civilization, London, Constable & Co., 1921. Reptints: Constable, 1922 ; Chawleigh, The Britons Publishing Co., 1971 ; Sudbury, Bloomfield Books, [1990?].

The Past History of the World Revolution. A lecture, Woolwich, Royal Artillery Institution, 1921.
with Kurt Kerlen, Boche and Bolshevik, being a series of articles from the Morning post of London, reprinted for distribution in the United States, New York, Beckwith, 1923. Reprint: Sudbury, Bloomfield Books, [1990?]. ISBN 1-4179-7949-6

Secret societies and Subversive Movements, London, Boswell Printing & Publishing Co. London, 1924. Reprints: Boswell, 1928 and 1936 ; London, The Britons Publishing Co., London, 1955 and 1964 ; Palmdale, Christian Book Club of America and Sudbury and Sudbury, Bloomfield Books, 198[?] ; Kessinger Publishing, 2003. ISBN 0-7661-3066-5

The Socialist network, London, Boswell Printing & Publishing Co., 1926. Reprint: Boswell, 1933 ; Sudbury, Bloomfield, [1989?] ; Noontide Press, 2000. ISBN 0-913022-06-3

The Surrender of an Empire, London, Boswell Printing & Publishing Co., 1931. Reprint: Sudbury, Bloomfield Books, [1990?].

The Origin and Progress of the World Revolution, London, Boswell Printing & Publishing Co., [1932].

(with the pseudonym of Julian Sterne), The Secret of the Zodiac, London, Boswell Printing & Publishing Co., 1933.
Germany and England, (reprinted from The Patriot and revised), London, Boswell Publishing Co., [1938].

Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette before the Revolution, London, Constable & Co., 1936. Reprint: Constable, 1937 ; G.P. Putnam's sons, 1937.
Spacious days: an autobiography, London, Hutchinson, 1949 and 1950.

Crowded Hours: part two of her autobiography, manuscript stolen from the Britons library in the early 1970s by an unknown American visitor. It has never been recovered and remains unpublished.

Marie-Antoinette intime, Paris, La Table ronde, 1981 (French translation). ISBN 2-7103-0061-3

The Revolution of 1848, [ed. and date unknown]. ISBN 1-4253-7315-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nesta_Helen_Webster

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Quote from: "Wimpy"Uroko,

No need to concern yourself although I believe John Savage, your polite antagonist, has exited the forum via expulsion.  I do appreciate your research and connecting of the historical dots and find nothing unclear in your presentation.  The epigraphy of root word commonalities is a very valid topic and all such efforts assist in painting a clearer picture of history.  Well, er..., at least I think so.

Thanx Wimpy.   I have run across the allegation on a couple of occasions that the words 'scale', 'skull' and 'scallop' all derive from the same original root.   I'm not a linquist, and contemporary explanations for the roots of words are frequently shallow or incorrect.  I have no trouble believing the connection between scale and skull, nor 'skoal', a Norse drinking cheer (connected with the ancient custom of drinking from the skulls of fallen foes).   But I would sure love to find some confirmation regarding the 'scallop' connection. Scallop shells are found (in threes) frequently on the crests of elite families, princess Diana's crest has them, and one of the initial investors of the Shell Oil company was descended from a family whose crest did as well.  John of Ladon Gog hasn't stumbled onto the skull/scale/scallop connection, so no help there.

Part 11:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzYHgGqlg5Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzYHgGqlg5Y)

Very informative and topped with professional graphics.  Well done Uroko!

Thanx.   If I could just find someone to do the narration for me (I hate doing it, I suck at it) ...

Part 12 addresses bigger questions - and is already written.  

Cheers.

This might be of interest.  Remember that the Dulles brothers helped set up the CFR and sat on it as well... he was also a Kuhn & Loeb employee and associate.  Your story is good but the truth is much more complicated.

Pages 153 through 164 are must reads to see the Scheming JEWS and their Puppets, on both the Right and the Left, as active players behind the Rothschild-Jewish World Wars.... remember that Dulles at Sullivan and Cromwell had arranged 1/3 of the German Foreign Bond purchases. When these bonds defaulted, the result helped create the US Great Depression.  

Allen Dulles: Master of Spies
 By James Srodes
http://books.google.com/books?id=RIaw7G ... &lpg=PA153 (http://books.google.com/books?id=RIaw7GYDFmwC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153)

QuoteHITLER WAS A ROTHSCHILD!! (I don't think he was but like many of the "dictators" of S. America in the 1940s-80s... he was set up --The CSR )

The Second World War was incredibly productive for the Illuminati agenda of global control. It led to an explosion of lobally-centralized institutions, like the United Nations and the European ommunity, now Union, and many others in finance, business, and the military. recisely what they wanted. It also put countries under an enormous burden of ebt on loans provided to all sides by...the Rothschilds and the Illuminati.

The Rothschilds had long had a plan to create a personal fiefdom for themselves and the Illuminati in Palestine and that plan involved anipulating Jewish people to settle the area as their "homeland." Charles Taze Russell, of the Illuminati-reptilian Russell bloodline, was the man who ounded the Watchtower Society, better known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. He as a Satanist, a pedophile according to his wife, and most certainly Illuminati. His new "religion (mind-control cult) was funded by the Rothschilds and he was a friend of theirs, just like the founders of the Mormons who were also Rothschild-funded through Kuhn, Loeb, and Co. Russell and the Mormon founders were all Freemasons. In 1880, Charles Taze Russell, this friend of the Rothschilds, predicted that the Jews would return to their homeland. It was about the only prediction Russell ever got right. Why? Because he knew that was the plan. He wrote to the Rothschilds praising their efforts to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

Then, in 1917, came the famous Balfour Declaration, when the British Foreign Minister, Lord Balfour, stated on behalf of his government that they supported the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Now when you hear that phrase, the Balfour Declaration, you get the feeling that it was some kind of statement or public announcement. But not so.

The Balfour declaration was a letter from Lord Balfour to Lord Lionel Walter Rothschild. Researchers say that the letter was in fact WRITTEN by Lord Rothschild and his employee, the banker, Alfred Milner. Now get this. One of the most important secret societies of the 20th century is called the Round Table. It is based in Britain with branches across the world. It is the Round Table that ultimately orchestrates the network of the Bilderberg Group, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission and the Royal Institute of International Affairs. See my books for details. How ascinating then, that Lord Balfour was an inner circle member of the Round able, Alfred Milner was the Round Table's official leader after the death of ecil Rhodes, and the Round Table was funded by..Lord Lionel Walter othschild. These were the very three people involved in the Balfour eclaration of 1917.

Two years later, in 1919, came the Versailles Peace Conference near Paris when the elite of the Round Table from Britain and the United States, people like Alfred Milner, Edward Mandel House, and Bernard Baruch, were appointed to represent their countries at the meetings which decided how the world would be changed as a result of the war these same people had created. They decided to impose impossible reparations payments on Germany, so ensuring the collapse of the post-war Weimar Republic amid unbelievable economic collapse and thus create the very circumstances that brought the Rothschild, Hitler, to power. It was while in Paris that these Illuminati, Round Table, members met at the Hotel Majestic to begin the process of creating the Bilderberg-CFR-RIIA-Trilateral Commission network. They also decided at Versailles that they now all supported the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. As I show in my books, EVERY ONE of them was either a Rothschild bloodline or was controlled by them.

The American President, Woodrow Wilson, was "advised" at Versailles by Colonel House and Bernard Baruch, both Rothschild clones and leaders of the Round Table in the United States; The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, was "advised" by Alfred Milner, Rothschild employee and Round Table leader, and Sir Phillip Sassoon, a direct decendent of Mayer Amschel Rothschild, the founder of the dynasty; The French leader, Georges Clemenceau, was "advised" by his Minister for the Interior, Georges Mandel, whose real name was Jeroboam Rothschild.

Who do you think was making the decisions here??

But it went further. Also in the American delegation were the Dulles brothers, ohn Foster Dulles, who would become US Secretary of State, and Allen Dulles, ho would become first head of the new CIA after World War Two. The Dulles rothers were bloodline, would later be supporters of Hitler, and were employed by the Rothschilds at Kuhn, Loeb, and Co. They were also involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy and Allen Dulles would serve on the Warren Commission which investigated the assassination. The American delegation at Versailles was also represented by the Rothschild-controlled, Paul Warburg, of Kuhn, Loeb and the American branch of I.G. Farben, while the German delegation included his brother, Max Warburg, who would become Hitler's anker!! Their host in France during the "peace" conference was Baron Edmond de Rothschild, the leading force at the time pressing for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Israel. See my books for fine detail.

The Rothschilds have always been the true force behind the Zionist Movement. ionism is in fact SIONism, Sion = the Sun, hence the name of the elite secret ociety behind the Merovingian bloodline, the Priory of Sion. Contrary to most people's understanding, Zionism is not the Jewish people. Many Jews are not Zionists and many non-Jews are. Zionism is a political movement, not a race. To say Zionism is the Jewish people is like saying the Democratic Party is the American people. Jewish people who oppose Zionism, however, have been given a very hard time.

Now, having manipulated their puppet-governments to support their plan for a personal fiefdom in the Middle East, the Rothschilds began the process of settling Jewish people in Palestine. As always they treated their own people with contempt. Enter Baron Edmond de Rothschild, the "Father of Israel", who died in 1934, the man who hosted the Versailles "peace" delegations. Edmond was from the French House, like Guy de Rothschild. Edmond, in fact, began to settle Jews in Palestine as far back as the 1880s (when Charles Taze Russell was making his prediction). He financed Russian Jews to establish settlements in Palestine, but it was nothing to do with their freedom or birthright, it was to advance the Rothschild-Illuminati genda. Edmond financed the creation of farms and factories and ran the whole peration with a rod of iron. The Jewish farmers were told what to grow and they soon found out who was in charge if they questioned his orders. In 1901, hese Jewish people complained to Rothschild about this dictatorship over heir settlement or "Yishuv". They asked him:

"..if you wish to save the Yishuv, first take your hands from it, and for once permit the colonists to have the possibility of correcting for themselves whatever needs correcting.."

Baron Rothschild replied:

"I created the Yishuv, I alone. Therefore no men, neither colonists nor organizations, have the right to interfere in my plans.."

In one sentence, you have the true attitude of the Rothschilds to Jewish people, and indeed, the human population in general. These people are NOT Jews, they are a non-human bloodline with a reptilian genetic code who hide behind the Jewish people and use them as a screen and a means to an end. According to Simon Schama's book, Two Rothschilds and the Land of Israel (Collins, London, 1978), the Rothschilds acquired 80% of the land of Israel.

Edmond de Rothschild worked closely with Theodore Herzl, who just happened to be the founder of Zionism, the political movement created to ensure a "Jewish" homeland in Palestine. othschild was also the power behind Chaim Weizmann, another leader of ionism. As Rothschild told Weizmann:

"Without me Zionism would not have succeeded, but without Zionism my work would have been stuck to death."

So now with the Rothschilds increasing their financing of Jewish settlements in Palestine, and with their agents in governments officially supporting their plans for a Rothschild, sorry Jewish, homeland, they needed a catalyst which would demolish Arab protests at the take-over of their country. That catalyst was the horrific treatment of Jews in Germany and the countries they conquered by the Rothschild-funded Nazis and one of their own, a Rothschild called Adolf Hitler.

The wave of revulsion at the Nazi oncentration camps gave vital and, in the end, crucial impetus to the othschild agenda. It was they who funded the Jewish terrorist operations like the Stern Gang and Irgun, which committed mayhem and murder to bring the State of Rothschild (Israel) into being in 1948. These terrorist groups, who slaughtered Jewish people with equal enthusiasm, were led by the very people who later rose to lead the new Israel people like Menachem Begin, David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Rabin, and Yitzhak Shamir. It was these othschild-controlled Zionist gangs who murdered the international mediator ount Bernadotte on September 17, 1948, apparently because he had been ntending to present a new partition resolution to the United Nations.

And the Rothschilds were not satisfied with causing the unimaginable suffering of Jewish people under the Nazis, they also stole their wealth when the war was over, just as they stole the Russian ealth during the revolution they had financed.

In early 1998, during a speaking tour of South Africa, I had a personal meeting with P.W. Botha, the apartheid President of South Africa during the 1980s. The invitation came out of the blue when I was speaking a few miles from his home. We spoke for an hour and a half about the manipulation of South Africa and it was not long before names like Henry Kissinger, Lord Carrington, and the Rothschilds came up.

"I had some strange dealings with the English Rothschilds in Cape Town when I was president", he said, and he went on to tell me a story that sums up the Rothschilds so perfectly. He said they had asked for a meeting with him and his foreign minister, the Illuminati operative, Pik Botha (no relation). At that meeting, he said, the Rothschilds told him there was massive wealth in Swiss bank accounts which once belonged to German Jews and it was available for investment in South Africa if they could agree an interest rate. This is the very wealth, stolen from German Jews who suffered under the Nazis, which has come to light amid great scandal in recent years. The Rothschilds have been making a fortune from it since the war!! Botha told me he refused to accept the money, but Pik Botha left the meeting with the Rothschilds and he could not be sure that they did not come to some rrangement.

Breathtaking? Of course it is, but the world is not how we think it is.

To this day the Rothschilds continue to control the State that has their family symbol on it's flag and it is they who use that country and its people to maintain the conflict, both within its borders and with surrounding Arab countries, which has allowed the lluminati-Rothschilds to control their so called "Arc of Crisis" in the Middle East through divide, rule, and conquer. It has allowed them, not least, to control the oil-producing countries since the war when the oil really came on line.

http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/37787/dulles-allen (http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/37787/dulles-allen)


-----------

QuoteDulles Allen
( Head of U.S. secret services in Europe)

Photo Gallery Dulles Allen (5)
Comments for Dulles Allen
Biography Dulles Allen
.
photo Dulles Allen
Homer, Mario and Jessica Rabbit in Real Life
Welch Allen Dulles was born April 7, 1893 in Waterloo, New York in a very wealthy family. Allen captivated the stories his grandfather - John Foster, who fought, was promoted to general, was ambassador to Mexico, Spain and Russia, and even headed the State Department, successfully combining diplomacy with the intelligence.

In 1914, after graduating from Princeton University, this playboy went to conquer the world - he visited India, China and, presumably, fancied himself a second Lawrence (the legendary British spy). A year later, Dulles returned home, telling everyone about personal acquaintance with Chiang Kai-Shek. For the patronage of relatives, Allen Dulles, was adopted at the diplomatic service. But go to the East is as a diplomat for some reason he refused, preferring to Europe. During his diplomatic career, first in Vienna and then in Bern, Switzerland.

In December 1918, Dulles participated in the American commission for the peace talks in Paris. In 1919 he was in Berlin, and then was transferred to the State Department, where in 1922-26, he led the administration's Middle East policy.

In the life of Allen Dulles was another side to it is not reported, although the 'narrow circle' of her well-known. Through its membership in the American establishment Dulles played an important role in the 'Council on Foreign Relations' (QS). Even with the 1920 Council of the collective efforts of its members - is the largest financiers and industrialists, . policy, . captains, . owners of the media - produces a strategy for the U.S. on the world stage, . having the final fitting on the construction of global management of the planet from the American metropolis,
.

Today, the QS is one of the three major shadow of supranational institutions - in addition to Bilderberg and the Trilateral Commission. It arose in New York in 1921 as a branch of 'Carnegie Endowment for universal peace'. Known, . that the origins of the Council were also members of certain esoteric 'the Company' round table ', . converted in 1919 in Paris at the Institute of International Relations, with offices in France, . Britain and the U.S., . - U.S. Department and became the organizational base of QS, . which during the Cold War was a major think tank in the formulation of American strategy against the USSR and the 'socialist camp'.,

. Since 1927, Allen Dulles served in the position of the QS one of the directors, from 1933 to 1944 was secretary of the Board, and from 1945 to 1950 - its President
. Later, heading the CIA, he still remained one of the directors of the QS.

In 1920-1930-ies Dulles played a significant role in the Nazis came to power in Germany. A small excerpt from a study by John Loftus and Mark Aaronsa 'secret war against the Jews':

. 'The Nazis could remain a small political party, and Germany - the weak, defenseless state, in need of funds, if not powerful foreign capital investments
. Our sources connected with the intelligence, believe that a truly major event of this period was the alliance between American oil companies and Saudi Arabia. This event has become a fundamental prerequisite for a future war and catastrophe, arranged by the Nazis.

In historical works do not even mention the secret cooperation of Ibn Saud, Jack Philby and Dulles. They were the secret source of oil, capital and international influence, acting behind the scenes and who brought Hitler to the world stage. These people, supplying oil to the Nazi war machine in the 1930's, were the same people who robbed the Jews of last resort to escape to Palestine. Our sources claim that these partners in the oil deals were thorough scoundrel, carrying a large share of responsibility for the catastrophe, but manage to escape the burden of history '.

. Jack Philby - the father of Kim Philby, the talented Soviet intelligence
. Believed, . that he was 'recruited' Allen Dulles 'back in 1920 as an' agent of influence "on U.S. policy to prevent the support of official Washington's idea of a Jewish national home, . and then brought the project to the Saudi oil sales,
. In those years, Dulles was often in Europe. He had met with Mussolini, and Germany's newly elected Chancellor Adolph Hitler. It was not just about geopolitics, but also about big money - his brother John Foster was the director of the notorious German concern 'IG. Farben ', which owned stakes in some U.S. oil companies, and the Allen headed the board of directors of a major German bank.

. After the Second World War, Dulles was appointed to head the secret service in Europe
. Since November 1942, he carried out in Switzerland in constant contact with various groups of the German resistance.

Dulles number of diplomats, but all persons concerned knew that he was head of American intelligence in Europe. However, this did not prevent Allen to make progress. His most valuable acquisition - Officer germanskogo Foreign Fritz Kolbe, who himself came to Bern to offer their services. British resident waved his hand and thought: a provocation. And Dulles believed, and had to spring 1944 received from Kolbe over thousands of secret documents. Including data on developments Germanic scholars atomic weapons and missiles.

. A member of the German counter-intelligence Hans Bernd Gizevius, who worked in Switzerland, recalled: "Allen Dulles was the first intelligence officer who had the courage to extend their activities to the political aspects of war
. He tried to establish contact with resistance groups, acting in Europe. "

. Headquartered in Bern, Dulles became the center where, in addition to the Germans, met opposition in many European countries occupied by Nazi Germany.

. But most of Dulles' famous "Operation Sunrise Crossword" - so called as negotiations with the Germans about a separate peace in spring 1945, . became an occasion for a serious crisis in US-Soviet relations in the final stage of World War II,
.

In March 1945, Dulles conducted secret negotiations with General Wolff, however, they were conducted with the knowledge of management and limited to the issue of delivery of troops in Northern Italy. The Soviet leaders were not informed about the negotiations and learned about them through their scouts (among them, Kim Philby and Rudolf Rassler). Followed a sharp exchange of telegrams between Stalin and Roosevelt. Stalin demanded to allow representatives of the USSR at the next meeting, but was unable to achieve. Germany group of forces in Italy surrendered April 29, 1945.

Its truly Jesuit quality Dulles demonstrated in 1947-1949. Then his plan, and under his leadership in the People's Democracies of Eastern Europe was carried out covert CIA operations 'splitting factor', . during which the CIA was able hands of the NKVD and the secret services in Eastern Europe 'fix' a number of leaders of the communist movement.,

. The implementation of this operation has caused a wave of bloody repression
. The victims were such well-known and authoritative figures of the communist movement's national bent, as Rudolf Slansky (Czechoslovakia), Wladyslaw Gomulka (Poland), Laszlo Rajk (Hungary), Traycho Kostov (Bulgaria), and many others.

The CIA then worked through his agent, Colonel Joseph Svyatlo, deputy chief of the Tenth control security of the Polish People's Republic of. It is generously supplied Svyatlo fabricated 'evidence' espionage and subversive activities of these leaders. After Svyatlo passed these 'proofs' in Moscow, from there follow the instructions on the organization of revealing processes.

. It was then between the USSR and the future of the socialist bloc fell first bloody furrow, which was conducted with the active involvement of the CIA and Allen Dulles personally.

. Soon the U.S. broke a big scandal
. August 29, 1949 in the Soviet Union produced a successful test of an atomic bomb that America was seen as a bolt from the blue. After all, CIA Director Admiral Hillenkoetter just a year before, sent a memorandum to President, . in which he wrote, . that 'there is a very weak probability, . that the Russian will create its first atomic bomb at the earliest by mid-1950, . but the most likely date, . our opinion, . - Mid 1953 ',
. Naturally, all dogs were hanged for the CIA, with the loudest expressed his indignation Allen Dulles.

Secretary of Defense James Forrestal asked him to analyze the work of the CIA at this stage and Allen lambasted intelligence activities to the nines. For words to be answered. And in 1951, Dulles called in to work at the CIA, offered the post of Deputy Director. And two years later, in February 1953, he led U.S. intelligence agencies, and remained in that post until 1961.

The period during which the Dulles led the CIA, was marked by the secret operations, the result of which was zero, if not negative. Could not help even the fact that these operations chief of the CIA personally invented beautiful and romantic names. In most cases, nothing is impossible, but a couple of times CIA incredible price costs still make the grade. Thus, in 1953, Dulles undertook an operation 'Ajax': the Americans overthrew the Iranian government headed by Prime Minister Mossadegh and restored the shah's rule in the country. Coup led directly to Roosevelt's grandson - Kermit (Kim) Roosevelt, who was obliged to spend on a campaign at least $ 2 million. month. Conclusion: if the Mossadegh could be something to negotiate, the Shah was completely insane.

In 1954 the CIA overthrew Guatemala premiere Hokobo Arbenz. After the coup, took power the government of Carlos Armas, who was so corrupt that the Americans immediately regretted his deed. Other covert operations Dulles were altogether anecdotal. In 1954, the CIA launched Operation 'Moby Dick', in which the airspace of the USSR and other socialist countries run thousands of unmanned balloons to conduct aerial. It was assumed that these balls, flying from west to east, will be met in the Pacific. No ball, which cost $ 50 thousand, as expected, the ocean is not reached

. Finally, . in April 1961 on the initiative of Dulles was held catastrophic landing in the Bay of Pigs 'Brigades-1625' - a special unit of Cuban exiles, . then blatant unprofessionalism Dulles became apparent to all,
. By submitting his resignation, President Kennedy put it very politely: 'Allen Dulles - the legendary personality, but with the legends is very difficult to deal with practical affairs'. Dulles later blamed the failure of the operation on President Kennedy, who, in his opinion, had not committed enough force to its implementation.

. In 1963, Allen Dulles, the last time he returned to public activity, becoming a member of the commission that investigated the Kennedy assassination
.

At rest, he wrote a book entitled it, neither more nor less, 'The Art of Exploration'. The fact that it represents, suggests, for example, then, Dulles described the operation as a 'Gold'. In 1955, the CIA dug a tunnel length of about 500 meters from the zone of the divided Berlin to the Soviet sector to tap telephone conversations. In this operation the Americans spent about $ 6 million. But after the onset of winter, according to Dulles, 'snow above the tunnel began to thaw because of the underground heating equipment, and the secret is about to threaten to become clear - at the surface would have stood out tricky road leading from West Berlin'. Equipment immediately disconnected, and the danger was past - this, according to Dulles, and the art of intelligence.

Actually, it is strange that such professionals, as Allen Dulles, did not occur, that in Berlin, from time to time snow falls. But it's not so bad. In fact, the plan 'one of the most courageous and effective intelligence activities' was known in all parts of the KGB in 1953, when the tunnel is only designed. After it was built, the Soviet counter-intelligence officers have successfully used the tunnel as a channel of strategic disinformation. At the time of publication of the memoirs Dulles already knew about this, but it did not bother. He was a frequent participant of television programs on foreign policy.

He died in Washington on Jan. 29, 1969 from complications in the lungs after influenza. Buried in a cemetery in Baltimore. His wife, born March Clover Todd, whom he married in 1920, survived him by 5 years. The couple had three children.

. Interesting facts

. In our country, since Ehrenburg (that belong to his pen the lines "If Dulles on some misunderstanding would go to paradise where he will be hatching plots and begin to shoot the angels") tend to demonize Dulles
.

Since the 1990's in the Russian media began to mention the so-called 'Plan Dulles' - a secret plan to capture the Soviet Union through the corruption of the population, allegedly uttered Dulles in December 1945. Like, that's when Dulles devised a plan to collapse of the Soviet Union with the help of "sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll."

. The doctrine of Allen Dulles (verbatim):

. "We throw everything we have, all gold, all the material power and resources stultification and Fooling people
. The human brain, consciousness of people are able to change. Sowing chaos in Russia, we soon be replaced by the value of fake ... We find like-minded people, his aides and allies in Russia. Episode for episode will play out a grand tragedy of the death of the rebellious people on earth, the final extinction of its identity.

From the literature and art we ... gradually erase their social nature, break with artists, recapture their psychical image, the study ... the processes that occur in the depths of the masses. Literature, theater, movies - everything will depict and glorify the basest human emotions. We will do our best to maintain and raise the so-called artists who will plant and hammered in the consciousness of the cult of sex, violence, sadism, betrayal - in short, of all immorality.

. In public administration, we will create chaos, confusion
. We are quietly but actively and continuously promote the tyranny of officials, bribe takers, unprincipled. Honesty and integrity will be ridiculed and no one will be needed, will become a relic of the past. Rudeness and arrogance, lies and deceit, drunkenness and drug abuse, animal fear ... and the enmity of peoples, especially the hostility and hatred for the Russian people - all this we will be neatly and inconspicuously to cultivate.

And only a few, very few will guess or understand what is happening. But these people we put in a helpless position, made a mockery, they find a way to slander and call dregs of society ...

We will shatter the way generation after generation ... We will fight for people from childhood, adolescence, we will always be the main emphasis on youth, become corrupt, corrupt, defile her. We will make them cosmopolitan.

But in 1945, Dulles' role in the OSS (Office of Strategic Services) did not allow him to issue such instructions, and the very similar OSS projects simply could not deal. It was not too serious organization solely focused on gathering information.

Plans for transforming intelligence has already been discussed at the time, and Dulles, of course, participated in their development. It was he who originated the idea that we should actively intervene in the internal affairs of other countries, to apply sabotage, assassinations and even support coups. However, the reformed service Dulles was not invited.

There is no evidence that when he was CIA director Dulles issued a similar directive. This is not a word either in declassified intelligence documents, or even in research on the history of American intelligence.

And not in the nature of Allen was to build long-term, decadal plans. Major General Kenneth Strong, . led the U.S. Army Intelligence in Western Europe during the Second World, . Dulles called "the most outstanding American professional scout of his time, . although more prone to the rapid collection and analysis, . than to long-term intelligence projects. ",

. According to one version, the report had been spoken by him in the U.S. Congress in 1945, on the other - this is an excerpt from his book, published either in the 1945th, whether in 1953 year-em
. None of the known reports or books Dulles is no such plan, the very same text almost verbatim the same as the words of one of the characters published in the years 1971-1976, Anatoly Ivanov, a novel 'Eternal Call'.

. And yet in Russia's history Dulles played a pivotal role.

. In 1917, he worked at the U.S. mission in Bern
. Allen was on duty when a diplomatic mission called requesting a meeting a man who introduced by Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.

Why called Lenin, never, perhaps, not cleared. Perhaps wanted to wave across the Atlantic. But Dulles took him for a mentally unbalanced and exile in the meeting refused.

. The next day, Lenin had already rolled into Russia in the famous sealed train ...

. Movies

. Allen Dulles became widely known in the Soviet Union after it became one of the minor characters of the cult television series "Seventeen Moments of Spring '
. In the film, the highest ranking German come in contact with Dulles and lead with him the secret negotiations to conclude a separate peace with Dulles, acting behind President Roosevelt. Scout Stirlitz reveals the conspiracy and disrupts the continuation of negotiations, reporting on the conspirators to the German authorities and inform Moscow about the details of the negotiations.

Bibliography

1963 'The Art of Exploration'
1966 'secret surrender'

http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/37787/dulles-allen (http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/37787/dulles-allen)

---------

QuoteThese people are NOT Jews, they are a non-human bloodline with a reptilian genetic code who hide behind the Jewish people and use them as a screen and a means to an end.

Ok :crazy:

Quote from: "VoltaXebec"

QuoteThese people are NOT Jews, they are a non-human bloodline with a reptilian genetic code who hide behind the Jewish people and use them as a screen and a means to an end.

Ok :crazy:

Yeah sorry about that... this is more David Icke crap. Some facts but a lot of "mis-direction" towards "reptilians" and other Icke B.S.

My personal apologies.  The coverage of Dulles as a possible conservative agent of the Jews post WWI is really the story here.  Hitler was not a Rothschild and WWII was started by a conspiracy of Jews and their Shabbos Goy to create Israel.  WWI was started to break up the Monarchies-Kings of Europe as per the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"Hitler was not a Rothschild

Yeah, the Hitler as a Rothschild just doesn't fly with me, not enough evidence for that one.

Agreed ... might be true, not proven, too much dis-info on these topics for me to put much faith in the idea.    

And as for the reptilian angle, I figure somewhere the business that the ancient rulers associated themselves with the dragon got taken a little too literally, and so we have this bizarre myth floating around - as well as people who believe there are shape-shifters - or that the ancient ruling elite were the progeny of humans mated with aliens from Nibiru (planet X?) - obviously the ancient Sumerian myth of the 'watchers', or the biblical fallen angels ... after a few thousands years of "telephone".  I don't buy any of it.  

Allen Dulles an "employee" of Kuhn and Loeb??   No, I don't think so.   He might have represented them as a client at Sullivan and Cromwell, but the focus of his activities was protecting Standard Oil and Brown Brothers Harriman.    He put but those accounts (and related dealings with Schroeder bank) under one account, which he called `Brown Brothers Harriman ‑ Schroeder Rock.'
http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/ipb-archive/c ... 5power.htm (http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/ipb-archive/commonsense/35power.htm)  

As for Dulles' involvement in the formation of the CFR, I had not heard that.   I know he was a director very early on, from 1927 ... but in 1921 he had just gotten married and was preparing to attend Law School (at GW).  He might have still been in Switzerland.  Any other source that he was involved in the formation of the CFR?  

Regardless, I think noting that he was its president from 1947 was sufficient to get the point across.  

There is one goof that I'd like to fix - the order gives the impression that Prescott Bush met Dorothy Walker after joining W A Harriman & Co. - actually he married her in 1921 and joined the firm when it was founded in 1922.   Kind of a minor detail, and it flows nice the way it is, but it's a little deceiving with regard to a completely unimportant point ... still, I think I'll fix it.  

Back to Dulles ... what I would have liked to address was the fact that he got himself ensconced as soon as possible as head of the CIA (1953 - he had to wait until Truman was gone) in order to cover up all his and his clients' Nazi dealings.   It's quite an amazing story.  I just couldn't include it for time considerations.   I have a goal, I'd like to cover certain points and tie it up nice in under 2 hours total, and I just wanted to cover the ground necessary to get there.   Also, this isn't really targeting people who are already familiar with this stuff, but people who aren't, and I think if you give them too much scandalous stuff at once their brains begin to shut down.    I'm trying to keep it simple and easy to grasp.  

But yes, as you say, the story is more complicated - way more complicated.    I mean, the whole thing about the IG Farben/Standard Oil partnership, their patent agreements, how that benefitted the Nazis; Dupont, Ford, GM, GE, IBM, ITT, how they all were involved, in what transactions Sullivan and Cromwell helped who cover whose tracks, or launder Nazi money kept in the US, it just is endless, and far too complicated to squeeze into a few minutes of a larger movie. So I just presented the basics, and focused on Harriman/Bush, Standard Oil and Dulles, who were indeed the major players.

Quote...Hitler was not a Rothschild and the WWII was started by Jews to create Israel. WWI was started to break up the Monarchies-Kings of Europe.

I'm not convinced it was started by "Jews", my take, which everyone is familiar with I assume, is that the Zionist-international ruling elite club commonality is dragon/Kabbalistic, not Jewish per-se.   "To create Israel"?  Yes, that was one of the goals - in fact they tried getting that ball rolling in WWI.   I look at WWII as the war to finish the job - not just to get Jewish immigration to Palestine at a significant level, but also to give international governance another go ... the League of Nations failed of course, and WWII gave them (TM) the UN, IMF and World Bank, so their decision to have another war payed off handsomely.    This is all gonna be in part 12 by the way.

.

Quotethat Prescott Bush met Dorothy Walker

Take a good look to the Walker part of the Bush dynasty, they were powerful before the Bushes, George Herbert Walker already was a banker in his time.
Another very hidden part of the geneology is the Davis bloodline (George Herbert Walker was the youngest son of David Davis Walker). Davis was involved when they  killed Lincoln's greenbacks ?, Then we have the Robinsons and the Wears - See more under here

(http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/img/Greenbacks.jpg)


The former "president" bush real name i not George Bush but George Walker Bush

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush

And his father's name is not George Herbert Bush  but George Herbert Walker Bush

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

Here are some links

George Herbert Walker

(http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/thefamily/images/photos/large/001.jpg)

QuoteWalker came from a Maryland family of slave owners, something they attempted to keep secret.

Quotehttp://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/books/chapters/1st-chapter-bush-tragedy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

QuoteIn 1900, he started a banking and investment firm named G. H. Walker & Co. His family had developed many international banking contacts, and he helped organize the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair.

QuoteHis brother-in-law Joseph Walker Wear was one of the founders of the Davis Cup.

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Herbert_Walker

David Davis Walker

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Walker%2C_David_Davis.jpg)

QuoteWalker was a first cousin of Senator and Supreme Court Justice David Davis.

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_Walker

David Davis (Supreme Court justice)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/JudgeDDavis.jpg/300px-JudgeDDavis.jpg)

QuoteHe was born to a wealthy family in Cecil County, Maryland
After President Lincoln's assassination, Judge Davis was an administrator of his estate.

QuoteIn 1870 he held, with the minority of the Supreme Court, that the acts of Congress making government notes a legal tender in payment of debts were constitutional.

STOP THE PRESS : Killing the greenbacks !! My English in not that good, can anyone confirm here if this means that they maked the greenbacks illegal by this or does it means that he was in favour? Anyways, he was involved in this issue, smell a rat in any case, controlled opposition is the way of the power elites to control the slave's revolt, that's for sure. Link here under
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(Supreme_Court_justice)#National_stage



Henry Winter Davis
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Henry_Winter_Davis.jpg/220px-Henry_Winter_Davis.jpg)

Quotewell known as one of the Radical Republicans during the Civil War.

Quotedied in Baltimore at the very end of 1865

QuoteHenry W. Davis was a cousin of David Davis

My own comment here: Both cousins were involved at the conflict but dedicated to one side of the equation, nice trick.



George E. Walker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_E._Walker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/George_E._Walker

Quotethe only thing that seems to be of note about this individual is that they appear in the family tree of the two Bush presidents.

Lucretia Wear Walker

(http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/thefamily/images/photos/large/010.jpg)

Lucretia Wear Walker's relationship map (expand by pointing (MouseDown) the courser at the cross)

http://www.muckety.com/Lucretia-Wear-Walker/1020.muckety



Dorothy Walker Bush

(http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/thefamily/images/photos/large/004.jpg)

Dorothy Walker Bush, Richard Dupree relationship map (expand by pointing (MouseDown) the courser at the cross)

http://www.muckety.com/Query?SearchResult=1329&SearchResult=381&graph=MucketyMap?_r=2D

Ancestry of George Walker Bush - Bush Family Tree

http://genealogy.about.com/od/presidents/p/george_bush.htm
http://genealogy.about.com/od/presidents/p/george_bush_two.htm

_______________________________________________________________________

George Walker Bush

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071030075321/genealogy/images/thumb/d/d4/George-W-Bush.jpeg/200px-George-W-Bush.jpeg)

1. George Walker Bush
2. George Herbert Walker Bush
3. Barbara Pierce
4. Prescott Sheldon Bush
5. Dorothy Walker
6. Marvin Pierce
7. Pauline Robinson
8. Samuel Prescott Bush
10. George Herbert Walker
14. James Edgar Robinson
16. Rev. James Smith Bush
20. David Davis Walker
22. James Hutchinson Wear1. George Walker Bush (1946), 43rd U.S. President


Parents

2. George Herbert Walker Bush (1924), 41st U.S. President

(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071124001451/genealogy/images/thumb/0/0f/George_H._W._Bush%2C_President_of_the_United_States%2C_1989_official_portrait.jpg/200px-George_H._W._Bush%2C_President_of_the_United_States%2C_1989_official_portrait.jpg)

3. Barbara Pierce (1925)

(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821044634/genealogy/images/thumb/3/37/BarbaraPierceBush.jpg/200px-BarbaraPierceBush.jpg)
 
Grandparents
 
4. Prescott Sheldon Bush (1895-1972)

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821044727/genealogy/images/4/46/PrescottSheldonBush.jpg)

5. Dorothy Walker (1901-1992)

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821044759/genealogy/images/c/cd/DorothyWalkerBush.jpg)
 
6. Marvin Pierce (1893-1969)

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821044822/genealogy/images/0/08/MarvinPierce.jpg)
 
7. Pauline Robinson (1896-1949)

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821044902/genealogy/images/thumb/3/32/PaulineRobinsonPierce.jpg/200px-PaulineRobinsonPierce.jpg)

Great grandparents
 
8. Samuel Prescott Bush (1863-1948)

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821044950/genealogy/images/3/38/SamuelPrescottBush.jpg)
 
9. Flora Sheldon (1872-1920)
10. George Herbert Walker (1874-1953)

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821050501/genealogy/images/thumb/0/0b/GeorgeHerbertWalker.jpg/200px-GeorgeHerbertWalker.jpg)

11. Lucretia Wear (1874-1961)

(http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/thefamily/images/photos/large/010.jpg)
 
12. Scott Pierce (1866-1891)
13. Mabel Marvin (1869-?)
14. James Edgar Robinson (1868-1932)

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821050641/genealogy/images/thumb/4/4e/JamesEdgarRobinson.jpg/200px-JamesEdgarRobinson.jpg)
 
15. Lula Dell Flickinger (1875-?)
 
2nd Great grandparents

16. Reverend James Smith Bush (1825-1889)

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821050751/genealogy/images/thumb/d/d4/JamesSmithBush.jpg/200px-JamesSmithBush.jpg)

17. Harriet Fay (1829-1924)
18. Robert Emmet Sheldon (1845-1917)
19. Mary Elizabeth Butler (1850-1897)
20. David Davis Walker (1840-1918)
21. Martha Adela Beaky (1841-1917)
22. James Hutchenson Wear (1838-1893)

(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090821050844/genealogy/images/thumb/7/71/JamesHutchinsonWear.jpg/200px-JamesHutchinsonWear.jpg)

23. Nancy Eliza Holliday (1847-1942)
24. Jonas James Pierce (1839-1913)
25. Kate Pritzel (1841-1931)
26. Jerome Place Marvin (1846-1917)
27. Martha Ann Stokes (1847-1925)
28. John William Robinson (1831-1919)
29. Sarah Coe (1831-1901)
30. Jacob Marion Flickinger (1849-1917)
31. Sarah Haines (1855-1888)
3rd Great grandparents
32. Obadiah Newcomb Bush (1797-1851)
33. Harriet Smith (1800–1867)
34. Samuel Howard Fay (1804-1847
35. Susan Shellman (1808-1887)
36. Thomas H. Sheldon (1818-1854)
37. Martha Uncles (1824-1912)
38. Courtland Philip Livingston Butler (1819-1891)
39. Elizabeth Slade Pierce (1822-1901)
40. George E. Walker (1797–1864)
41. Harriet Mercer (1802-1869)
42. Joseph Ambrose Beaky (1818-1858)
43. Mary Ann Bangs (1817-?)
44. William Gault Wear (1817-1900)
45. Sarah Amanda Yancey (1819-1879)
46. John James Holliday (1819-1881)
47. Lucretia Green Foree (1822-?)
48. James Pierce (1810-1874)
49. Chloe Holbrook (1816-1886)
50. Anton Pritzl (1811-1844)
51. Marie Louise Pasquay (1813-1887)
52. Samuel Ross Marvin (1804-1863)
53. Julia Ann Place (1808-1884)
54. Richard M. Stokes (1818-1898)
55. Julia Ann Myers (1826-1858)
56. John Wilson Robinson (1803-1853)
57. Elizabeth Mitchell (1803-1853)
58. Daniel Coe (1801-1851)
59. Mary Gladden (1804-1893)
60. Stephen Flickinger (1823-1869)
61. Margaret Ann Figley (1825-1886)
62. Jonathan Haines (1815-1900)
63. Mary Jane Sprague (1823-?)

4th Great grandparents

64. Timothy Bush, Jr. (1761-1850)
65. Lydia Newcomb (1763-1865)
66. Dr. Sanford Smith (1760-1818)
67. Priscilla Whippo (1763-1838)
68. Samuel Prescott Phillips Fay (1778-1856)
69. Harriet Howard (1782-1847)
70. John Shellman (1757-1838)
71. Clarissa Montfort (?-1845)
72. Michael Sheldon
73. Mary
74. James Uncles (1794-1835)
75. Elizabeth Criswell/Kiswell (1798-?)
76. Samuel Herrick Butler (1785-1851)
77. Judith Livingston (1785-1858)
78. Levi Pierce (1797-1838)
79. Betsey Wheeler (1800-1881)
80. Captain Thomas Walker (1758-1799)
81. Catherine McLelland (?-1806)
82. John Mercer (1764-1820)
83. Rebecca Davis (1772-1802)
84. Joseph Beaky (1792-1854)
85. Catharine Shriner (1784-1850)
86. Elijah Keeler Bangs (1780-1856)
87. Esther Stackhouse (1787-1819)
88. James Hutchenson Weir (1789-1832)
89. Elizabeth Gault
90. David Yancey (1795-?)
91. Mildred Field (1795-?)
92. Joseph Holliday (1789-1870)
93. Nancy R. McCune 1799-1834)
94. Peter Foree
95. Eliza Dawson
96. James Pierce (1768-1849)
97. Mary Stacy (1774-1847)
98. John Holbrook (1778-1838)
99. Mercy Hill (1780-1856)
102. Georg Daniel Pasquay
103. Katharina Margretha Rothass
104. Robert Marvin (1770-1842)
105. Phebe Ford (1770-1852)
106. Arca Place (1766-1827)
107. Elizabeth Knight (1777-1862)
112. Henry Robinson (1755-1826)
113. Rebecca Wallace
114. Judge David Mitchell (1760-1836)
115. Martha Black (1764-1823)
116. Moses Coe (1750-1813)
117. Sarah Howell (1753-1813)
118. Joseph Gladden
119. Hannah Munn
120. John Flickinger (?-1823)
121. Margaret Rebecca Demuth (1793-?)
122. Jacob Figley (?-1848)
123. Anne Powell
124. Allen Haines (1791-1861)
125. Sarah Ballinger (1800-1856)
 
5th Great grandparents

128. Timothy Bush (1728-1815)
129. Deborah House (1742-1818)
130. Daniel Newcomb (1729-?)
131. Elizabeth May (1730-?)
132. [[Ephraim Smith (1704-1774)
133. Lucy Stevens (1717-1806)
136. Jonathan Fay, Jr. (1752-1811)
137. Lucy Prescott (1757-1792)
138. Samuel Howard (1752-1797)
139. Anna Lillie (1760-1804)
140. John Shellman (1723-1816)
141. Maria Margareth Fout/Fought/Fauth (1732-1795)
142. Robert Munford/Montfort
143. Anne Brodnax
152. Reverend Nathaniel Butler (1761-1829)
153. Sarah Herrick (1764-1823)
154. Gilbert James Livingston (1758-1833)
155. Susannah Lewis (1761-1822)
156. Isaac Pierce (1763-1849)
157. Anna Fitch (1763-1809)
158. Jarvis Wheeler (1774-1852)
159. Sarah Horton (1777-1856)
248. Jonathan Haines (c1737-1834)
249. Sarah Sharp
6th Great grandparents
256. Richard Bush (1696-1732)
257. Mary Fairbanks
9th Great grandparents
2056. Jonathan Fairbanks (1594-1668)

Quotehttp://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ancestries_of_the_U.S._Presidents

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Bush_immediate_extended_family.jpg)

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_family

Connections to other prominent families (Kerry/Forbes etc)

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_family#Connections_to_other_prominent_families

(http://www.puppetgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/FranklinCoverup-.jpg)

The franklin cover up -Conspiracy of Silence - Illuminati Pedophiles in Washington D.C. (documentary)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 240639313# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=866739408240639313#)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 401208062# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3395321338401208062#)

.
.

Yes, Walker was a big-shot.  I never really looked deep into him, although I am aware he had his own banking firm and sat on the board of AIC.

Didn't know about the Davis family.    Lots of great info upstairs there - thanx.

And a big thank you to the poster who PM'd me with confirmation on the scale-skull-scallop entymological connection.  
http://www.wordnik.com/words/scale/etymologies (http://www.wordnik.com/words/scale/etymologies)

That's a great help to me - the real meaning behind the use of scallop shells on family coats of arms has been a mystery to many people.   Now I feel confident in repeating it.   thank you again !
 :up:

Do you think Bush was "Coached" by the Rothschilds like these leaders?

-------

The American President, Woodrow Wilson, was "advised" at Versailles by Colonel House and Bernard Baruch, both Rothschild clones and leaders of the Round Table in the United States; The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, was "advised" by Alfred Milner, Rothschild employee and Round Table leader, and Sir Phillip Sassoon, a direct decendent of Mayer Amschel Rothschild, the founder of the dynasty; The French leader, Georges Clemenceau, was "advised" by his Minister for the Interior, Georges Mandel, whose real name was Jeroboam Rothschild.

Are you asking me?   No, actually I don't think it goes down anything like that, and I don't think we should attribute too much credit/blame to the Rothschilds.   John Van Hove noted that Alex Christopher's Pandora's Box reveals a number of families which have been the real wielders of power for untold centuries, and that the names are unrecognizable to anyone.   I haven't read it, but I suspect there's some truth to the statement (and I expect the Veres are one of the families Christopher names).     I view the elite as more of an institution, with their own rules, their own values, and their own hierarchy which changes subtly over generations.  The people closest to the top are less visible than others farther down.  A "Bush" or an "Obama" isn't coached by a Rothschild or anyone else that high up - the closest they ever come to even meeting any of their masters is at a Bilderberg Group meeting before their election where they are looked over and given a final OK (and not even by the top people, but by their trusted upper-management, world leaders you find on the Bilderberg Steering committee).  A Bush or an Obama is then told what to do by a team of advisors, who are told what to do by their advisors, who are told by their bosses, etc.   Probably a decision to go to war with Iraq starts with a few words spoken over a brandy in England somewhere ... but by truly powerful people whose decisions are regarded as law, upon which machinery to make it happen goes into effect.  Everything about the ruling elite, what they do, how they do it and how their clubs and institutions are organized points to the "rings within rings" model or the "hub and spoke" form of criminal conspiracy.  People on the outer rings aren't privy to what goes on in inner rings, indeed they may not know that more powerful inner circles from which directives come down even exist - they just know on which side their bread is buttered.   The way it's structured protects the top echelon, makes it nearly impossible for people like us to figure out what's going on, and even if understood by some presents such a massive conspiratorial picture to the average person that they wouldn't believe it true in a million years.

Sorry, C-S-R, I didn't read the second part of your post, I thought it was your signature.  

QuoteThe American President, Woodrow Wilson, was "advised" at Versailles by Colonel House and Bernard Baruch, both Rothschild clones and leaders of the Round Table in the United States; The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, was "advised" by Alfred Milner, Rothschild employee and Round Table leader, and Sir Phillip Sassoon, a direct decendent of Mayer Amschel Rothschild, the founder of the dynasty; The French leader, Georges Clemenceau, was "advised" by his Minister for the Interior, Georges Mandel, whose real name was Jeroboam Rothschild.

Well, in that respect, I suppose yes, but its a question of who is really in charge and how far removed these "coaches" are from them.  What is a "Rothschild clone", what does that mean, and was Colonel House one?   His father got rich running blockades during the civil war and trading with the Rothschilds, among other British businessmen.  I'm not saying that what you are suggesting (asking) isn't in some respects true, I just wanted to point out that it's all very blurry, and that many people, possibly convinced that the Jewish Rothschilds are behind everything and overstate the case and/or cherry pick and exaggerate.  Is that accurate?  Saying so doesn't make it so.  I know for a fact that the British and French Rothschild houses often have disagreed.   Take Japan for example - the English office wrote a number of letters to the French house commending Japan and its creditworthiness early in the century - but did not directly loan money to the Japanese, ostensibly because the French house didn't support the overthrow of Russia.  Schiff and Warburg picked up the slack and funded the Japanese side of the Russo-Japanese war, and the Rothschilds refinanced Japan's war debt after the dust had settled.  

One of Obama's advisors during the campaign was Zbignew Brzezinski - who is a close friend of Rockefeller.  Does that mean Obama was coached by a Rothschild minion?   Maybe, maybe not - I think it far more constructive to think in terms of the architecture of the elite system of governance, because even the Rothschilds' prominence say, a century ago is fairly well understood, we don't really know who is in really in charge right now - or at least, I don't.  

That's just my take on it.

This chapter is a must read but the whole book is worth a good read uroko...   :)  .  Careful when charting out these "histories" of small players and finding their lineages, you can miss seeing the most murderous criminals of all...which deserve far more attention.

Eustace Mullins is the first stop on this journey.

Remember, GWB and the entire Bush Family has been and was, at all times,  first and foremost a Shabbos Goy Jew Puppet operation in the USA.  

CHAPTER FIVE The House of Rothschild [SECRETS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE By Eustace Mullins]

QuoteThus we see that the 1910 plot to seize control of the money and credit of the people of the United States was planned by men who already controlled most of the country's resources. It seemed to John Moody "practically automatic" that they should continue with their operations.

What John Moody did not know, or did not tell his readers, was that the most powerful men in the United States were themselves answerable to another power, a foreign power, and a power which had been steadfastly seeking to extend its control over the young republic of the United States since its very inception. This power was the financial power of England, centered in the London Branch of the House of Rothschild. The fact was that in 1910, the United States was for all practical purposes being ruled

   32 John Moody, "The Seven Men", McClure's Magazine, August, 1911, p. 418

from England, and so it is today. The ten largest bank holding companies in the United States are firmly in the hands of certain banking houses, all of which have branches in London. They are J.P. Morgan Company, Brown Brothers Harriman, Warburg, Kuhn Loeb and J. Henry Schroder. All of them maintain close relationships with the House of Rothschild, principally through the Rothschild control of international money markets through its manipulation of the price of gold. Each day, the world price of gold is set in the London office of N.M. Rothschild and Company.

Although these firms are ostensibly American firms, which merely maintain branches in London, the fact is that these banking houses actually take their direction from London. Their history is a fascinating one, and unknown to the American public, originating as it did in the international traffic in gold, slaves, diamonds, and other contraband. There are no moral considerations in any business decision made by these firms. They are interested solely in money and power.

http://www.whale.to/b/m_ch5.html (http://www.whale.to/b/m_ch5.html)


Edward Griffin's book which basically plagiarized Mullin's work has this run down. Note Sullivan and Cromwell as basically an agent for the Fed owners, particularly Kuhn, Loeb & Co., which financed companies and trusts connecting back to Rothschild control.  Dulles ran as president of this agent firm. If you research the OWNERS instead of their Hand PUPPETS... it's JEWISH ALL THE WAY DOWN THE LINE -- ROTHSCHILD is the head LEECH of Europe... Israel is trying to become the HEAD LEECH of the WORLD.. that's why it has secret banking like in Switzerland:

QuoteBANKS OWN THE STOCK OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF NEW YORK  
 
Rothschilds, of Europe,
Lazard Freres (Eugene Meyer),
Kuhn Loeb Company,
Warburg Company,
Lehman Brothers,
Goldman Sachs,
 Rockefeller family,
J.P. Morgan interests.
 

MERGED AND CONSOLIDATED - CONTROL IS MUCH MORE CONCENTRATED.
 
National Bank of Commerce = Morgan Guaranty Trust Company.
Lehman Brothers+ Kuhn, Loeb Company = Morgan-Kuhn, Loeb
First National Bank + National City Bank
Chase and Bank of Manhattan merged, the Rockefeller and Kuhn Loeb = Chase Manhattan, NY
Citicorp, New York
Manufacturers Hanover of New York
J.P. Morgan Company of New York
Chemical Bank of New York
First Chicago Corporation,
First National Bank of Chicago principal correspondent of the Morgan-Baker bank in New York
 
 
The ten largest bank holding companies in the United States are firmly in the hands of certain banking houses, all of which have branches in London. They are
J.P. Morgan Company,
Brown Brothers Harriman,
Warburg,
Kuhn Loeb and
J. Henry Schroder. All of them maintain close relationships with the House of Rothschild,

London banking houses which control them:
CBS interlocks with the Washington Post, Allied Chemical, Wells Fargo Bank,
Brown Brothers Harriman controls CBS,
Eugene Meyer family (Lazard Freres) controls  Allied Chemical and the Washington Post,
Kuhn Loeb Co. the Wells Fargo Bank.
New York Times with Morgan Guaranty Trust, American Express, First Boston Corporation


The "local" families set up regional councils, on orders from New York, of such groups as the Council on Foreign Relations, The Trilateral Commission,
 
PAUL WARBURG
M.M. Warburg Company
Kuhn Loeb
Lehman Brothers has merged with Kuhn, Loeb Company
F.A. Delano, a Roosevelt relative, railroad operator took over railroads for Kuhn, Loeb Co.
W.P.G. Harding, President of the First National Bank of Atlanta;
J.W. McIntosh, chief of Subsistence for the United States Army in 1918. He later became Comptroller of the Currency during Coolidge's Administration,
William McAdoo - Secretary of the Treasury, Wilson's son-in-law, (President of the Hudson-Manhattan Railroad, a Kuhn, Loeb Company controlled enterprise...
Kuhn, Loeb Company, which was also known as a principal agent of the Rothschilds.
Thomas Fortune Ryan also held 5100 shares of National Bank of Commerce stock in 1914.
His son, John Barry Ryan, married Otto Kahn's daughter,
Kahn was a partner of Warburg and Schiff in Kuhn, Loeb Company,
Ryan's granddaughter, Virginia Fortune Ryan, married Lord Airlie,
the present head of J. Henry Schroder Banking Corporation in London and New York,
director of National Bank of Commerce in 1914,
 
A.D. Juillard, was president of A.D. Juillard Company, a trustee of New York Life, and Guaranty Trust, all of which were controlled by J.P. Morgan.  Juillard also had a British connection, being a director of the North British and Mercantile Insurance Company. Juillard owned 2000 shares of National Bank of Commerce stock, and was also a director of Chemical Bank.
 
J. Henry Schroder Bank and Trust control of sugar goes back to the U.S. Food Administration under Herbert Hoover and  Lewis L. Strauss of Kuhn, Loeb, Company during World War I.
 
Schroder's attorneys are the firm of Sullivan and Cromwell.
John Foster Dulles of this firm was present during the historic agreement to finance Hitler, and was later Secretary of State in the Eisenhower administration.
Alfred Jaretzki, Jr., of Sullivan and Cromwell is also a director of Manati Sugar Company and Francisco Sugar Company.
 
Another director of J. Henry Schroder is Norris Darrell, Jr., born in Berlin, Germany, partner of Sullivan and Cromwell,
 
Bayless Manning, partner of the Wall Street law firm of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind and Wharton, is also a director of J. Henry Schroder. He was president of the Council on Foreign Relations from 1971-1977, and is editor in chief of the Yale Law Review.
 
Paul H. Nitze, the prominent "disarmament negotiator" for the United States government,
is a director of Schroder's Inc.
He married Phyllis Pratt, of the Standard Oil fortune, whose father gave the Pratt family mansion as the building which houses the Council on Foreign Relations.
Kuhn, Loeb partners held the highest governmental posts in the United States during World War I,
Germany, Max and Fritz Warburg, and Philip and Ludwig Schiff, moved in the highest councils of government.
 
Louis Brandeis -  Schiff's lawyer, first available appointment on the Supreme Court of the United States which Woodrow Wilson was allowed to fill was given to the Kuhn, Loeb lawyer, Brandeis.
 
U.S. Food Administration managed by Hoover's director, Lewis Lichtenstein Strauss, who married into the Kuhn Loeb Company,  Alice Hanauer, daughter of partner Jerome Hanauer,
 
 The most critical field, military intelligence, Sir William Wiseman, chief of the British Secret Service, was a partner of Kuhn, Loeb & Company.
 
.. .an assistant Secretary of the Treasury (Jerome J. Hanauer, partner of Kuhn, Loeb Co. whose daughter married Lewis L. Strauss)in charge of Liberty Loans
 
The Liberty Loans, which sold bonds to our citizens, were nominally in the jurisdiction of the United States Treasury, under the leadership of Wilson's Secretary of the Treasury, William G. McAdoo, whom Kuhn, Loeb Co. had placed in charge of the Hudson-Manhattan Railway Co
 
The two Under-secretaries of the Treasury during the War were S. Parker Gilbert and Roscoe C. Leffingwell.
 
. . . came law firm of Cravath and Henderson, received partnerships in J.P. Morgan Co.,
 
Woodrow Wilson set up a United States Railroad Administration.
The Director-General was William McAdoo, Comptroller of the Currency.
 
Kuhn, Loeb Co. which owned the Mexican National Railways System,
 
Paul Cravath, the lawyer for Kuhn, Loeb Company, was third in charge of the American War Mission
 
Kuhn, Loeb Co. owned most of the railway mileage in the United States
 
(Brother)Felix M. Warburg, also a partner in Kuhn, Loeb Co.,
was director of the International Acceptance Bank and
Paul's son, James Paul Warburg, was Vice-President.
Paul Warburg director Westinghouse Acceptance Bank, organized in the United States immediately after the World War,
Paul Warburg became the most powerful acceptance banker in the world.
memorialization as "Daddy Warbucks" in the comic strip, "Little Orphan Annie".
 
highly successful run of several years on Broadway, another Warburg operation.


Benjamin Strong Benjamin married the daughter of the president of Bankers Trust in New York, and subsequently succeeded to its presidency.
 
Strong became Governor of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York as the joint nominee of Morgan and of Kuhn, Loeb Company in 1914."
 
Lord Montagu Norman is the only man in history who had both his maternal grandfather and his paternal grandfather serve as Governors of the Bank of England.  
 
His father was with Brown, Shipley Company, the London Branch of Brown Brothers (now Brown Brothers Harriman)
Seven men of the Morgan group, allied with the Standard Oil-Kuhn, Loeb group, ruled the United States
 
African Development Bank. "The British merchant bank, Morgan Grenfell and a syndicate of the United States, Kuhn Loeb, Lehman Brothers International, the French Lazard Freres and Britain's Warburg are discreetly acting as financial advisors to about ten debt-plagued African states."
 
President Reagan and his principal staff composed of men from :
J. Henry Schroder, Brown Brothers Harriman, and other leading components of "The London Connection".

Excerpts from Secrets of the Federal Reserve by G. Edward Griffin

Another good one:

THE ROTHSCHILD OCTOPUS
Written by: Vlada Sindjelic
http://www.dejanlucic.net/THE%20ROTHSCHILD%20OCTOPUS (http://www.dejanlucic.net/THE%20ROTHSCHILD%20OCTOPUS)
or
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=14528.0 (http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=14528.0)


---------------

Mayer Rothschild and the Five Arrows - from 'The World Order - A Study in the Hegemony of Parasitism' by Eustace Mullins

In "Jews and Modern Capitalism", Prof. Werner Sombart wrote:

Quote"The principal loan floaters of the world, the Rothschilds, were later the first railway kings. The period of 1820 onwards became the 'Age of the Rothschilds' so that at the middle of the century it was a common dictum : There is only one power in Europe and that is Rothschild."

Hearst's Chicago Evening American commented, Dec. 3, 1923: "The Rothschilds can start or prevent wars. Their word could make or break empires." Reeves notes, "The fall of Napoleon was the rise of Rothschild." Napoleon was later slowly poisoned to death with arsenic by a Rothschild agent. They had no need of another "return from exile".

The New York Evening Post noted July 22, 1924, "The Kaiser had to consult Rothschild to find out whether he could declare war. Another Rothschild carried out the whole burden of the conflict which overthrew Napoleon."

The Kaiser's Chancellor, Bethmann-Hollweg, who actually precipitated World War I, was a member of the Frankfurt banking family, Bethmann, and a cousin of the Rothschilds.

Also:

QuoteIt explains the secret writing of the Federal Reserve Act by Paul Warburg of Kuhn, Loeb & Co., and the even more secret deals which caused it to be enacted into law by Congress. It explains how the United States could fight World War I with:

    *

      Paul Warburg in charge of its banking system through the vice chairmanship of the Federal Reserve Board
    *

      Bernard Baruch as dictator of American industry as Chairman of the War Industries Board
    *

      Eugene Meyer financing the war through his position as chairman of the War Finance Corporation (printing government bonds in duplicate)
    *

      Kuhn, Loeb partner Sir William Wiseman with Col. House correlated British and American intelligence operations
    *

      Kuhn, Loeb partner Lewis L. Strauss as acting head of the U.S. Food Administration under Herbert Hoover.

Meanwhile, Paul's brother, Max Warburg, headed the German espionage system and another brother was German commercial attache in Stockholm, traditional listening post for warring nations. Jacob Schiff had two brothers in Germany who were financing the German war effort. It was a classic case of a "managed conflict", with the Rothschilds manipulating both sides from behind the scenes. At the Versailles Peace Conference, Bernard Baruch was head of the Reparations Commission, Max Warburg, on behalf of Germany, accepted the reparations terms, while Paul Warburg, Thomas Lamont and other Wall Street bankers advised Wilson and the Dulles brothers on how "American" interests should be handled at this all-important diplomatic conference.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/socio ... Ch01-1.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/world_order/WorldCh01-1.htm)

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/socio ... htm#Arrows (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/world_order/WorldCh01-1.htm#Arrows)

Keep in mind:

The Rothschild Group is the largest private banking group in the world

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... p_logo.svg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/LCF_Rothschild_Group_logo.svg)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21961296/worl ... Rothschild (http://www.scribd.com/doc/21961296/world-governance-Rothschild)

Yes, I have read Mullins.     And Morton.   And other books.  Yes, I'm aware they are the biggest private bank in the world -  and one of the oldest, next to Warburg's bank I think.   I state clearly in my movie that they are the richest family in the world, I quote Morton in the movie, I connect Warburg and Schiff and Peabody to the Rothschilds in the movie, I connect Rockefeller and Harriman  to them through Schiff, I connect Morgan to them through Peabody.   But there are other sources too.   Have you ever read any of the letters between the British and French houses?  I don't know of a place you can find a lot of them in one place, but I always read them when I run across them.   Also, a good book to read is Theodor Hertzl's diary.   In it he describes his effort to get Alfred to support his idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

To some familiar with much of the literature available @ iamthewitness, one would probably think that the Rothschilds had backed Hertzl from the beginning and there would be no question of Rothschild support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.    But that's not the case at all, they were all against it at first.   Alfred said the idea sounded "too Jewish", and would Hertzl take Uganda instead?.  In all fairness, Hertzl soon won the baron over, but Edmund, whose settlements were already making wine in Palestine, wasn't swayed and stayed enemies with Hertzl all his life.     The Rothschilds were bankers, and had worded hard and long to assimilate themselves into the gentile circles of the European elite ... and didn't want to jeapordize that.    That was the jist of it at the end of the century at least.

So what changed?  Did the Rothschilds "get religion"?   Or was a potential Jewish state near the newly secured oil fields in Persia viewed by the British as a potential security apparatus?  

If England supported a Jewish state in Palestine, then the Rothschilds would.  

To me, I see a fairly large and diverse group of people running things behind the scenes.  The Rothschilds may or may not be at the head of this at present.  The question is, are the top people all Jewish?  And if so, is being such part and parcel of this leadership?  And do all the non-Jewish minions beneath them do their bidding because it's the only game in town, and is the conquering of Palestine and the Zionist movement exactly what it looks like and can be taken at face value?  in short, is it a "Jewish conspiracy"?  

There's another interpretation - that every malevolent idea hatched within the inner circle of the elite doesn't eminate only from the Rothschilds, that it is more fluid, that there are factions, there is ongoing competition behind the scenes, that the agenda of the rulers behind the scenes is an agenda of the elite, rather than a Jewish agenda. That maybe Israel continues to serve as a wedge, driven into the only part of the world the bankers don't own and that, this is controversial, like Germany and Japan, one day Israel will be taken down a notch for its crimes to help assimilate it into the elites' dream of one-world-citizenship (with them in control of course) - I don't know, I'm just offering alternate theories.  I'll bet it looked like the elite were trying to take over the world from Germany back in the 30's ... and someone with knowledge of who was backing Hitler and how would've come to that conclusion.   Little would they have known that the Nazi's would be defeated, thrown to the wolves and that Germany, a very important country in terms of the homeland of some of the world's ruling houses including Jewish banking houses, would be humiliated and split between NATO and the Soviet Block.  I have seen this too many times in history - a country is supported to serve a particular end, grows powerful, and is knocked back down.  

Now, for the record, I don't know - but I DO believe the goal here is to wreck the Muslim world and rebuild it, and that creating a Jewish state in the Holy Land provides the perfect means to allow that to happen (even though it was, as I suggested, envisioned originally simply as a security apparatus to protect oil fields).   Then there's the minerals.   There's 3 trillion (with a T), maybe 4 trillion by now with inflation, worth of minerals bound up in the Dead Sea.

In short, I am very aware of the importance of the Rothschilds.   I hold a somewhat minority POV however in terms of the overall picture.

Part 11 doesn't work.
Youtube:"video removed by user".

Never mind , i found it.

Yeah, I fixed the part about Prescott Bush marrying Dorothy Walker.  Now it is clearer that he married her before joining W A Harriman & Co.  I figured I better do it quick ... sorry, pas, that you had to look for the newer version - glad you found it.  

The new link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHNxjAThiqA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHNxjAThiqA)

P.S. I'm pretty excited about part 12, which I'm working on now.  It deals with all the stuff we've all been talking about in recent posts.   You can't even really get into this stuff without first dealing with all the other material in Uroko parts 1-10 first, (a year's work LoL).

QuoteIn short, I am very aware of the importance of the Rothschilds. I hold a somewhat minority POV however in terms of the overall picture.

Dude, you are starting to speak out of both side of your mouth. Which is more important, the "Bushes" or the "Rothschilds"?

Are the "Bushes" leaders throughout history in creating these organizations,  or PUPPETS of the Rothschilds,  like JP Morgan?

Like I said before, your "Bush" focus is clouding your Criminal Jew Focus (Rothschilds).
There have been years of deception of pointing at Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld or the Illuminati rather then Criminal Talmudic Jewry which in the end game is running the show... It would be nice to see Part 13 cover the Talmud throughout history. Maybe you can put that in? No?

QuoteI'm not convinced it was started by "Jews", my take, which everyone is familiar with I assume, is that the Zionist-international ruling elite club commonality is dragon/Kabbalistic,  not Jewish per-se.  :wtf:  "To create Israel"? Yes, that was one of the goals - in fact they tried getting that ball rolling in WWI. I look at WWII as the war to finish the job - not just to get Jewish immigration to Palestine at a significant level, but also to give international governance another go ... the League of Nations failed of course, and WWII gave them (TM) the UN, IMF and World Bank, so their decision to have another war payed off handsomely. This is all gonna be in part 12 by the way.

Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew oh... almost forgot... JEW ... focus on what the Problem is throughout history like Nesta Webster and Eustace Mullins did. It's the Jews.
You never heard of Nesta Webster or read her works but then use   "dragon/Kabbalistic"???  You overlook the Rothschilds and criminal Jewry by a wide margin here. I don't know why you do this in your movies...starting with a rather unknown "Szabios Cult" and then linking it up through the ages. I'm starting to smell "Shill" from your work... why?... since you seem "so studied" and detailed on so many points ....  but you are missing the very obvious and much larger players in the game that are frankly carrying on today out of Israel. You'll look at BUSH and their lineages but forget all about Kissinger and that Rumsfeld and Cheney were understudies of Kissinger.  It seems you speak from both sides of your mouth with your movie -- you can't include "this" but exclude "that" just because you think it is not relevant.   And frankly I'm not that impressed with it for what it LEAVES OUT OF THE STORY....  you know about Herzl and Rothschild ... hmm give us list here at TIU of all the books-sources you've read to create you movie. We'd be interested in seeing it.  Yeah you are clever... but we tolerate Jew Shills here TIU in any manner or even "half"Jew shilling by people interested in these topics.  I got the impression now that if you are not a Jew your are definitely shilling for their program whether you know it or not... Protocols of the Elders of Zion have you read it?

Again, you are starting to smell like a Jew "Shill" and believe me... I've smoked out some good ones on various forums.

Do you read here at TIU or just post on this thread... that has already debunked large parts of your movies??? -- The CSR   (yeah... this is an attack on the content of your movies).

Quote from: "/tab"This are the first 10 parts of UROKO, I'll wait to get my humble verdict until I'd seen it all, I'm waiting for the rest, I leave you now with what seens to be their core theory in the link here below, bye bye for now.

This is from /tab's first post..... my verdict --- > "SHILL"  :down:

You think I'm a shill?   That's a laugh.  I'm not religious at all - it's all a joke, but I was raised Methodist.  

If you had watched my flick, why did you post those links to Mullins' work?   DId you imagine for a second that I hadn't read Mullins?   I'm so bored of the standard "Jews did-it" meme.  Oh, Cecil Rhodes was secretly a Jew.   Morgan was a Jew.  The Bush's were secretly Jews.  Rockefeller must have been a Jew.    The Jews want Palestine, so Rothschild pulled strings in Britain.  Britain wanted the kikes out, so they gave Rothschild Palestine.   It took a couple hundred years and the heads of a king and queen and countless thousands of English, both noble and common, to move Britain from Catholic to Protestant.   They just rolled over to appease one family of bankers?  Is that why Britain is pro-Israeli?

You believe all that?  

I'm looking for WHY gentile (Christian) and Jewish factions have been cooperating over the last 5 hundred years to get control of the planet.  You ask what books I've read ... how about this, I read everything I can get my hands on that's in the path of what I'm interested in at the time, and I THINK FOR MYSELF.    And, I take things cherry picked by people like Eric Huff-n-puff and Daryl Smith with a grain of salt.   Because I know xxx-hating propoganda when I see it, and I know that getting people to take sides and blame large groups is THE classic debilitating tactic practiced by the elite.  Are you not familiar with the ABC's of co-intel?  

I came here because some of you folks took an interest in my flick.   I kept my mind open as to the collective POV of the posters here.  I'm not sure why I even bothered.  If your (CSR) POV is representative, maybe you should just change the name of the site to "The Jews Did It" and not split hairs.

Sorry... let me correct that:   an A.J. Shill  :down: (co-intel mentioned)...

QuoteThen you have the perplexing fact that the American robber barons of the later 19th century so involved in the hijacking of America who partnered with Jewish bankers like the Rothschilds, the Warburgs and Jacob Schiff were all gentile.  Then after they had all climbed into bed together they (and their offspring) did the craziest thing.   They banded together and financed Hitler's war machine.

Why???  And why are the present leaders of America and Britain so unwavering in their support of Israel, to the extent that they pass multi-billion dollar aid-packages while looking the other way as Israel commits blatant war crimes against Palestinians and Lebanese?

The easy way around these conundrums is just to take religion out of the equation and rack everything up to greed.   ... Easy, yes, but not very satisfying.  Needless to say, I kept digging.

Finally I discovered connections between some early American tycoons and the British and Dutch East India Companies, and found that many of the wealthy Americans who got involved with the European bankers of their time had made their fortunes the same way the British and Dutch East India companies had -  selling slaves or opium. And I knew that those companies protected their monopolies with the force of their gunships - yet these Americans (Astors, Russells, etc.) were allowed to get in on the rackets!  And that most of the early investors in the British and Dutch companies had been Jewish merchants and Freemasons!!  And that Freemasonry evolved from the banned Templar Knights, the first international bankers!!!  And that the Templars under different names had partnered with Jewish merchants in Spain and Portugal!!!!

Finally I could see why Jews and Freemasons as groups get so much flack in regards to a so-called world-wide conspiracy.   What is actually the case is that early Freemasons and certain Jewish merchants and bankers played a significant role in defining the colonialism of our modern world, but that Normans in control of England (and to some extent Germanic descendents of the Magyar-Huns) were also significant players, and that Freemasonry itself was simply an outgrowth of the Templar knights, whose order was created by Normans.

And I noticed something else quite interesting ... a constant power struggle seems to have persisted between these groups (collectively) and the Catholic Church. Did you know that the Freemasons do not allow Catholic inductees?   Methodist? No problem. Episcopalian? In ya go. Anglican? Lutheran? Jew? - fine.  Catholic?  Sorry.  In fact the 'Knights of Columbus', a pseudo-"masonic" order separate from Freemasonry, was created specifically to cater to Catholics (who couldn't get in to any real Freemasonic orders).   Another curious footnote, the US has had only one Catholic president in its history ... John F. Kennedy, who didn't last long in that post.

Could it be that at the level of the ruling class non-Catholic Christian families had much more in common with (elite) Jewish families than Catholic ones?   The answer is yes.  When Vatican-aligned Bank of America was established in San Fransisco in the early 20th century John Peirpont Morgan all but declared war on the new upstart bank.  The blood-lines of the ruling elite nearly all trace back to Normans who trace back again to a mix of Vikings and Franks, or to Jewish Germanic families which ultimately trace back to Khazaria. Each of these cultures thrived where the Catholic power of Rome was weakest or non-existant.


It's not so cut-and-dry, the Germanic Holy Emperors play an important role in the family histories of our modern ruling elite, and they were blessed by Rome ... but they were essentially Hunnic families which intermarried with Nordic families.  Also, among the early crusaders were some noble Frankish families of Aquitaine and Toulouse, but these houses were, I am convinced, Cathar, even if they tried to hide the fact - one of the bloodiest Catholic inquisitions in history was the Albigensian Crusade, an attempt to wipe out the Cathar movement in France.   Catharism was wiped out (following an orgy of blood-letting, torture and mass burnings unequalled in history) among the populace, but the nobles of Aquitaine and Toulouse (centers of Catharism) appear to have continued to embrace the heretic ideology, "courtly love" and all that.  

If you are confused as to what the #%$& I'm talking about (or its significance), in the 8th century the great Frankish king Charlemagne appealed to the Exilarch of Baghdad to send to France "seed" of the royal House of David, and so Rabbi Makhir moved to Narbonne in the south of France where he recieved lands and title.  It was from Makhir's kingdom that Catharism spread.  The noble families of Aquitaine and Toulouse which embraced Catharism got on well with the Vikings who had conquered northern France, and the top families began to intermarry.  Later after the Norman conquest of England the first Crusade was declared and many Dukes of Aquitaine and Counts of Toulouse fought alongside the Normans in the holy land.  Raymond IV of Toulouse, regarded as the first crusader, was a Duke of Narbonne and almost certainly a Cathar (the French Cathar movement started in Narbonne), as was his grandson-in-law, William XI "the troubadour" of Aquitaine, another famous crusader whose granddaughter Eleanor of Aquitaine married King Henry II of England.

But wait, weren't the Crusades called for by the Roman Catholic Church, and weren't the Templar Knights the pope's own militia ???   Yes ... however, there's a twist.


St. Bernard of Clairveaux
At the time the Templars were formed the reigning pope was actually a mole, an insider, pope Innocent II who had been promoted to that post by the patriarch of the Templars themselves, Bernard of Clairveaux.

The 'Clairveaux' in Bernard's name derives from a Cisterian monastery he founded which he named Claire Vallée, in the Champagne district of Normandy.  Some of the original Templar Knights were from this same region, and the name Claire strongly suggests who Bernard really was and where his loyalties lied - for the descendents of Rollo the Viking all took the name Claire, or St. Claire, or in Britain Sinclair.

This is all not as complicated as it might seem - simply, the devil is in the details (no pun intended;).  These details I will try and flush out in other posts here.  The big picture, once one gets a glimpse of it, is quite simple.

Following the 9th century Viking invasion of northern France, their subsequent mixing with the Franks, and the simultaneous entry of Hunnic and Jewish migrants from Khazaria into Hungary and eastern Europe,  the ruling elite of these various groups began vying for power and conquering territory.  They also formed alliances and intermarried, changing the face of the aristocracy of Europe and Britain forever.  The kicker is, this convergence in Medieval Europe of these peoples could be thought of as a reunion of sorts - for the Vikings, Franks, Magyar-Huns and Kabars all share a common heritage.

Obviously, blood lines do not run in straight-lines, they bleed all over the place, peoples tend to mix, and cultures tend to change.  However the ruling elite do not marry just anyone, they marry among their own kind, or marriages are arranged to strengthen alliances, and there is good evidence that dragon-culture persisted through the ages among these peoples.  Even more astounding, if you trace them back in history independently they all appear to have split off from the same Ba'al worshipping culture of the northern Levant/northwestern Mesopotamia circa 2500 or 3000 years ago.

It is to this nexus that own modern western elite connect - not just culturally, as evidenced by things such as the 'Cremation of Care' performed yearly at the Bohemian Grove, not just in the plundering pirate-mentality and belief in a special mandate to rule seemingly shared by the top political and business elite in the west, but in many cases by blood.

This whole idea is controversial - so call it a theory, one to which I subscribe.  The rest is all just picking up clues from the real world, from the historical record, from various texts including the writings of Greek historians, the Bible and a multitude of myths, from family crests, and from archeological finds and DNA research, and seeing if they all support such a view.  

In short, they do.  

http://urokomovie.com/5000_years_old.shtml (http://urokomovie.com/5000_years_old.shtml)


Dude, before you read Eustace Mullins completely, here's a good video for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0oDRYvoqPM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0oDRYvoqPM)

To supplement the Jim Condit video, here is a good interview of Jim by Christopher Jon Bjerknes.

Discussion is about Condit's documentary  "The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler"

http://www.jewishracism.com/Condit24May2007.mp3 (http://www.jewishracism.com/Condit24May2007.mp3)

Quote from: "uroko"I'm so bored of the standard "Jews did-it" meme.  Oh, Cecil Rhodes was secretly a Jew.   Morgan was a Jew.  The Bush's were secretly Jews.  Rockefeller must have been a Jew.    The Jews want Palestine, so Rothschild pulled strings in Britain.  Britain wanted the kikes out, so they gave Rothschild Palestine.   It took a couple hundred years and the heads of a king and queen and countless thousands of English, both noble and common, to move Britain from Catholic to Protestant.   They just rolled over to appease one family of bankers?  Is that why Britain is pro-Israeli?

You believe all that?

Uh...no.  You don't really describe what actually happened when the Jews KILLED the king of England in order to return and establish the Bank of England.  Here is a concise history from Brother Kapner (a former Jew who got wise and became a Christian and now HONESTLY reports about the Jewish schemes to destroy human life and Christian culture.)

QuoteOLIVER CROMWELL & THE BEHEADING OF KING CHARLES I IN 1649
FINANCED BY THE JEWS
http://www.realzionistnews.com/?p=86 (http://www.realzionistnews.com/?p=86)
JEWISH BANKERS FROM AMSTERDAM led by the Jewish financier and army contractor of Cromwell's New Model Army, Fernandez Carvajal and assisted by Portuguese Ambassador De Souza, a Marano (secret Jew), saw an opportunity to exploit in the civil unrest led by Oliver Cromwell in 1643.

A stable Christian society of ancient traditions binding the Monarchy, Church, State, nobles and people into one solemn bond was disrupted by Calvin's Protestant uprising. The Jews of Amsterdam exploited this civil unrest and made their move. They contacted Oliver Cromwell in a series of letters:

Cromwell To Ebenezer Pratt of the Mulheim Synagogue in Amsterdam,
16th June 1647:
— "In return for financial support will advocate admission of Jews to England: This however impossible while Charles living. Charles cannot be executed without trial, adequate grounds for which do not at present exist. Therefore advise that Charles be assassinated, but will have nothing to do with arrangements for procuring an assassin, though willing to help in his escape." —

To Oliver Cromwell From Ebenezer Pratt, 12th July 1647:
— "Will grant financial aid as soon as Charles removed and Jews admitted. Assassination too dangerous. Charles shall be given opportunity to escape: His recapture will make trial and execution possible. The support will be liberal, but useless to discuss terms until trial commences." —

Cromwell had carried out the orders of the Jewish financiers and beheaded, (yes, Cromwell and his Jewish sponsors must face Christ!), King Charles I on January 30 1649.

QuoteOn 9th January "a High Court of Justice" to try the King was proclaimed. Two-thirds of its members were Levelers from the Army. Algernon Sidney warned Cromwell:

    "First, the King can be tried by no court. Second, no man can be tried by this court."

So writes Hugh Ross Williamson in his Charles and Cromwell; and he adds a finishing touch to the effect that

    "no English lawyer could be found to draw up the charge, which was eventually entrusted to an accommodating alien, Isaac Dorislaus."

     Needless to say, Isaac Dorislaus was exactly the same sort of alien as Carvajal and Manasseh Ben Israel and the other financiers who paid the "Protector" his blood money.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars ... ss/1.shtml (http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/nameless/1.shtml)

Beginning in 1655, Cromwell, through his alliance with the Jewish bankers of Amsterdam and specifically with Manasseh Ben Israel and his brother-in-law, David Abravanel Dormido, initiated the resettlement of the Jews in England.

JEWS GET THEIR CENTRAL BANK OF ENGLAND

WILLIAM STADHOLDER, a Dutch army careerist, was a handsome chap with money problems. The Jews saw another opportunity and through their influence arranged for William's elevation to Captain General of the Dutch Forces. The next step up the ladder for William was his elevation by the Jews to the aristocratic title of William, Prince of Orange.

The Jews then arranged a meeting between William and Mary, the eldest daughter of the Duke of York. The Duke was only one place removed from becoming King of England. In 1677 Princess Mary of England married William Prince of Orange. To place William upon the throne of England it was necessary to get rid of both Charles II and the Duke of York who was slated to become James II of the Stuarts. It is important to note that none of the Stuarts would grant charter for an English national bank. That is why murder, civil war, and religious conflicts plagued their reigns by the Jewish bankers.

In 1685, King Charles II died and the Duke of York became King James II of England. In 1688 the Jews ordered William Prince of Orange to land in England at Torbay. Because of an ongoing Campaign of L'Infamie against King James II contrived by the Jews, he abdicated and fled to France. William of Orange and Mary were proclaimed King and Queen of England.

QuoteThe real objective of the "Glorious Revolution" was achieved a few years later in 1694, when the Royal consent was given for the setting up of the "Bank of England" and the institution of the National Debt.

     This charter handed over to an anonymous committee the Royal prerogative of minting money; converted the basis of wealth to gold; and enabled the international money lenders to secure their loans on the taxes of the country, instead of the doubtful undertaking of some ruler or potentate which was all the security they could previously obtain.

     From that time economic machinery was set in motion which ultimately reduced all wealth to the fictitious terms of gold which the Jews control; and drained away the life blood of the land, the real wealth which was the birthright of the British peoples....

     The political and economic union of England and Scotland was shortly afterwards forced upon Scotland with wholesale corruption, and in defiance of formal protests from every county and borough. The main objects of the Union were to suppress the Royal Mint in Scotland, and to force upon her, too, responsibility for the "National Debt."

    The grip of the moneylender was now complete throughout Britain. The danger was that the members of the new joint Parliament would sooner or later, in the spirit of their ancestors, challenge this state of affairs. To provide against this, therefore, the party system was now brought into being, frustrating true national reaction and enabling the wire-pullers to divide and rule; using their newly-established financial power to ensure that their own men and their own policies should secure the limelight, and sufficient support from their newspapers, pamphlets, and banking accounts to carry the day.

     Gold was soon to become the basis of loans, ten times the size of the amount deposited. In other words, 100 pounds in gold would be legal security for 1,000 pounds of loan; at 3% therefore 100 pounds in gold could earn 30 pounds interest annually with no more trouble to the lender than the keeping of a few ledger entries.

     The owner of 100 pounds of land, however, still must work every hour of daylight in order to make perhaps 4%. The end of the process must only be a matter of time. The moneylenders must become millionaires; those who own and work the land, the Englishman and the Scotsman, must be ruined. The process has continued inexorably till now, when it is nearly completed.

     It has been hypocritically camouflaged by clever propaganda as helping the poor by mulcting the rich. It has been in reality nothing of the kind. It has been in the main the deliberate ruination of the landed classes, the leaders among the Gentiles, and their supplanting by the Jew financiers and their hangers-on.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars ... ss/1.shtml (http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/nameless/1.shtml)

The new King William III soon got England involved in costly wars against Catholic France which put England deep into debt. Here was the Jewish bankers' chance to collect. So King William, under orders from the Elders of Zion in Amsterdam, persuaded the British Treasury to borrow 1.25 million pounds sterling from the Jewish bankers who had helped him to the throne.

Since the state's debts had risen dramatically, the government had no choice but to accept. But there were conditions attached: The names of the lenders were to be kept secret and that they be granted a Charter to establish a Central Bank of England. Parliament accepted and the Jewish bankers sunk their tentacles into Great Britain.

ENTER THE ROTHSCHILDS

MAYER AMSCHEL BAUER OPENED a money lending business on Judenstrasse (Jew Street) in Frankfurt Germany in 1750 and changed his name to Rothschild. Mayer Rothschild had five sons. The smartest of his sons, Nathan, was sent to London to establish a bank in 1806. Much of the initial funding for the new bank was tapped from the British East India Company which Mayer Rothschild had significant control of. Mayer Rothschild placed his other four sons in Frankfort, Paris, Naples, and Vienna.

In 1814, Nathanael Rothschild saw an opportunity in the Battle of Waterloo. Early in the battle, Napoleon appeared to be winning and the first military report to London communicated that fact. But the tide turned in favor of Wellington. A courier of Nathan Rothschild brought the news to him in London on June 20. This was 24 hours before Wellington's courier arrived in London with the news of Wellington's victory. Seeing this fortuitous event, Nathan Rothschild began spreading the rumor that Britain was defeated.

With everyone believing that Wellington was defeated, Nathan Rothschild began to sell all of his stock on the English Stock Market. Everyone panicked and also began selling causing stocks to plummet to practically nothing. At the last minute, Nathan Rothschild began buying up the stocks at rock-bottom prices.

This gave the Rothschild family complete control of the British economy - now the financial centre of the world and forced England to set up a revamped Bank of England with Nathan Rothschild in control.
(See Sources #4 Below )

ALL ABOUT THE JEWISH VATICAN
(As much as that is possible given Rothschild secrecy)

A PRIVATE FINANCIAL CORPORATION exists today in England known as "The City." It is also known as The Jewish Vatican located in the heart of Greater London.

A Committee of 12 men rule The Jewish Vatican. They are known as "The Crown." The City and its rulers, The Crown, are not subject to the Parliament. They are a Sovereign State within a State.

The City is the financial hub of the world. It is here that the Rothschilds have their base of operations and their centrality of control:

* The Central Bank of England (controlled by the Rothschilds) is located in The City.
* All major British banks have their main offices in The City.
* 385 foreign banks are located in The City.
* 70 banks from the United States are located in The City.
* The London Stock Exchange is located in The City.
* Lloyd's of London is located in The City.
* The Baltic Exchange (shipping contracts) is located in The City.
* Fleet Street (newspapers & publishing) is located in The City.
* The London Metal Exchange is located in The City.
* The London Commodity Exchange (trading rubber, wool, sugar, coffee) is located in The City.

Every year a Lord Mayor is elected as monarch of The City. The British Parliament does not make a move without consulting the Lord Mayor of The City. For here in the heart of London are grouped together Britain's financial institutions dominated by the Rothschild-controlled Central Bank of England. The Rothschilds have traditionally chosen the Lord Mayor since 1820. Who is the present day Lord Mayor of The City? Only the Rothschilds' know for sure...

You see, if the history of England during the civil war and Cromwell is described merely as one between Protestants and Catholics, it misses the point that the Cromwellian protestant faction was a proxy for Jewish bankers.  A key point made above was that NO ENGLISH LAWYER, Protestant or otherwise, would draw up the papers to execute king Charles I.  They had to get a foreign Jew to do that.  The legal Protestant parliament wouldn't vote to execute the king, Cromwell had to purge the parliament down to his "Rump".  The facts show that the Protestants who executed the king were working for Jewish Gold.

And the result of the "Glorious Revolution" was the Bank of England. Uroko, dude, don't you get it?  England was RULED BY THE BANK OF ENGLAND and the Jews who controlled it.  This isn't

Quote"things cherry picked by people like Eric Huff-n-puff and Daryl Smith".  

Look at the Opium wars in China. China stopped the opium trade and England fought TWO WARS forcing China to allow the trade to continue.  Who ran the opium trade? A Jew named David Sassoon.

And this framing of the debate is what smells shilly:

QuoteBecause I know xxx-hating propoganda [sic] when I see it, and I know that getting people to take sides and blame large groups is THE classic debilitating tactic practiced by the elite.

xxx-hating propaganda?  (I'm guessing that "xxx" stands for "Jew" and not "sexy, naked Jews".)  You take facts like: Jews paying for the Cromwell takeover of England.
Jews paying for the "Glorious Revolution."
A quid pro quo establishment of the Bank of England and its subsequent usury/fractional reserve fraud by Jews.
Wars fought specifically for enforcing immoral monopolies run by Jews.
And you call that "cherry picked" evidence and "xxx-hating propaganda"?

In the immortal words of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi: WTF?  

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are not a shill, and instead diagnose your condition as one of "cognitive dissonance".

QuoteCognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing them.
...
A cognitive bias is the human tendency to draw incorrect conclusions in certain circumstances based on cognitive factors rather than evidence. Such biases are thought to be a form of "cognitive shortcut", often based upon rules of thumb, and include errors in statistical  judgment, social attribution, and memory.
Wikipedia

DoubleThink is described by Wikipedia as being the opposite of Cognitive Dissonance, but I see it as just another form of adapted non-thinking.  

Applied to the case at hand we have the contradictory ideas: 1) Jews are the bees' knees; 2) Jews have a history of cabalistic mischief making focused around fractional reserve lending.

The first idea is widely held by anyone familiar with television, movies and news. Jews are always seen in the TV and movies as being honest, fair, hard-working and intelligent.  The newspapers and TV news avoid talking about Jewish scandals. The media presentation of Jews is therefore always positive.  A very important fact to keep in mind about this first idea is that almost ALL of the media is OWNED and WRITTEN and PRODUCED by JEWS.

The second idea is one that can be uncovered from sources of history that have not been written or paid for by Jews.  As I showed above, a very simple outline can PROVE the existence of a Jewish Cabal; its motivation; its operation; and its chief proponents.  Another example is the Russian Revolution: paid for, planned and executed by Jews. Many authors have documented this fact, but the Jewish Mainstream Media is completely ignorant.

So a person hypnotized by the Jewish MSM has Idea 1 in his head. He begins to read about Idea 2 and suddenly he has

Quotean uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously

How does he respond?
Well, he could create a "cognitive shortcut" and

Quotedraw incorrect conclusions in certain circumstances based on cognitive factors rather than evidence.

He IGNORES the evidence of the Jewish Cabal. Instead he states that the evidence has been "cherry picked" by people who just hate xxxs.

I ran into this the other day when I commented (over and over again) on a youtube video that israel did 9/11. The people who were watching that video were mostly israel-loving Jews, and they responding by calling me the worst names, including of course "nazi" and "anti-semite".  I quoted the MSM journals that had uncovered the facts that pointed to israeli involvement, including the Jewish Forward.  

But these people couldn't handle the Truth. The two contradictory ideas caused them too much pain. First of all, they reduced the jewish cabal within israel as being "all the Jews". [I never said that "all the Jews" did 9/11. But certainly the Jewish state of israhell did 9/11. And it was done in secret. It was certainly a Jewish cabal.] They made it into an accusation against them personally. And they felt more than justified in lying, calling me names and DENYING the facts.  

Idea 2 stood in stark contrast to what they have been told all their lives: idea 1.  

But really there is no reason to turn off our brains when we have a conflict.  That is the time to turn our brains on.
Wisdom can resolve these conflicts and bring peace.  

The answer here is simple.  Idea 1 is flawed because no group of people is as perfect as the media presents the Jews. Jews are no better than normal people. And in fact, the media praise of them as superior and the tendency to excuse everything they do as victims of pogroms and holocausts allows them to justify horrific behavior. Further, their own tradition is one of avoiding "a shanda fur die goyim", which means to do something embarrassing to Jews where non-Jews can observe it.  Ostensibly, this would mean avoiding the behavior that is shameful, but if you look at the actual use of, it closely resembles that of the mafia "omerta", or code of silence.

QuoteOmertà implies "the categorical prohibition of cooperation with state authorities or reliance on its services, even when one has been victim of a crime.  Even if somebody is convicted for a crime he has not committed, he is supposed to serve the sentence without giving the police any information about the real criminal, even if that criminal has nothing to do with the Mafia himself. Within Mafia culture, breaking omertà is punishable by death.

If you read the comments on Jewish blogs, Jewish people often use that "shanda" phrase to mean: "don't talk about our dirty laundry in front of the goyim". So it's not the doing of the thing that brings the shame, it's the talking about the thing in public that brings the shame.  

What sort of people has a tradition of covering up only those crimes committed by their own tribe? A crime family? A cabal?

And perhaps we goyim that have been hypnotized by the Jewish mainstream media have also adapted that tradition of shanda on the goyim.  When we uncover crimes committed by Jews, we cover them up from our own minds. Despite all the evidence, we say it is "cherry-picked" without bothering to show any hidden "cherries". Despite the obvious guilt, we say the proof of the crime was inspired by hate. [We even go so far as to replace the names of the guilty with the salacious "xxx"  ;) ]    

QuoteI'm looking for WHY gentile (Christian) and Jewish factions have been cooperating over the last 5 hundred years to get control of the planet.

I'll make this very easy for you: The 3 B's. Bribery, Blackmail, and the Bullet.
And if a group comprising less than one percent of the world's population also happens to represent 7 out 10 of the world's billionaires, would you tend to think that this group of people are cooperating or tricking the gentiles?

QuoteI know that getting people to take sides and blame large groups is THE classic debilitating tactic practiced by the elite.

Would you also say that hypnotizing and frightening people into not saying the obvious truth about who the guilty parties are is also a debilitating tactic of the xxx?  I mean, the elite?  
And when you say elite, do you mean billionaire elite?  

Think of the Russian Revolution, which was a Jewish Revolution. What was the first law they passed?
A law that made antisemitism a crime punishable by death.
Why?
Because if people started saying WHO was running the revolution, it would soon become apparent to the largely Christian country of Russia that their government and factories and schools and farms had all been taken over by a group of Jews funded by Wall Street bankers.
Talk about a shanda on the goyim.  

QuoteI kept my mind open as to the collective POV of the posters here.  I'm not sure why I even bothered.

Did you really keep an open mind? Did you ever once consider the Truth of what is being presented here?

Here's an honest method for assessment devoid of cognitive dissonance.  Take a sheet of paper (blank word doc) and write a hypothesis at the top. For example: israel did 9/11
Then beneath that make a PRO column and a CON column.  In the appropriate column list all the evidence which supports that side.  

I think if you are honest, you will find the evidence pointing to israel is a mile long with no countervailing CONS.  That is not cherry picking. That is not xxx-hating.  Those are FACTS. That is logic. That is the TRUTH.  

QuoteI came here because some of you folks took an interest in my flick.     If your (CSR) POV is representative, maybe you should just change the name of the site to "The Jews Did It" and not split hairs.

I saw some talent in your film-making, but I waited to judge it because I wanted to see what conclusions you drew. You seem to be unwilling to address the overwhelming facts of Jewish Cabals in these matters. I am willing to believe you suffer from cognitive dissonance, and that you are not a shill.

I think it is fair to say that Mr. Cracksmoke represents the thoughts of many on this forum, but you do him a disservice to summarize his reasoning as cognitive bias. Engage him in a debate and he will respond fairly with facts. He will use reason to arrive at a conclusion.

QuoteJesus answered him: I have spoken openly to the world: I have always taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither all the Jews resort; and in secret I have spoken nothing.

Why asketh thou me? ask them who have heard what I have spoken unto them: behold they know what things I have said.  And when he had said these things, one of the servants standing by, gave Jesus a blow, saying: Answerest thou the high priest so?  Jesus answered him: If I have spoken evil, give testimony of the evil; but if well, why strikest thou me?

.

 

QuoteOh, Cecil Rhodes was secretly a Jew. Morgan was a Jew. The Bush's were secretly Jews. Rockefeller must have been a Jew. The Jews want Palestine, so Rothschild pulled strings in Britain. Britain wanted the kikes out, so they gave Rothschild Palestine. It took a couple hundred years and the heads of a king and queen and countless thousands of English, both noble and common, to move Britain from Catholic to Protestant. They just rolled over to appease one family of bankers? Is that why Britain is pro-Israeli?

You believe all that?

Dear Uruko, I think the problem right now is that you really want to finish the documentary, but the question is DO you want to put it right ? then you must first get it right, I mean, do you want to be so near the truth of history as possible? Because you say you have been doing the documentary for already a year and I understand even all the research done by yourself? I think it is dangerous to have a rush to complete it before you got all the pieces together. Nobody here is speaking against "all the jews" and most of the people around TiU's forum have a very deep love and concern for humanity.

You see, Crack Smoke Republican is a good fellow but a bit impulsive, but I think he is not enable to see through the System of imperial Deception but not are you either. Of course I may be wrong, but these are my opinions about it. If you study the Josephus Problem you'll find a clue about the methods of protection and  "get safe" knowing the "ultimate hiding places" in the hierarquical pyramidal spiral of power.  My concept is that is a power hiden behind the construction called "The Jews". This power can be seen/discover by researching the Money/financial/economic system. At the top of those system we found several Banking/Financial houses. The thing is that House of Rothschild (and here you MUST ABSOLUTLY do the research)  is behind and in command of a lot of the war industry, the drog industry, the economical system of usury and opression etc, but they are using several agents (gatekeepers, cryptos, jews, non jews, pervers, and even normal but blackmailed people) so is not that evident who is behind, according with the mathematics of Josephus the safest place on a chessboard is OUTSIDE the board, just been the (hidden) hand moving the pieces. This AGENT/chess piece moving and peeking is very effective when the method of "creating action and reaction from the shadows" is on demand, because you'll find everywhere traces that the agents left behind, the you can by deduction think that you are finding the truth but not realizing that you finding the puppets trace and missing the puppeteers hands. Take for example Cecil Rhodes. When reading Carroll Quigley (beware, he was sympathetic to the elite's agenda), The Anglo-American Establishment- you'll find there all the references to the House of Rothschild and of course a lot and variate of associates and partners in crime, this research is already done there when speaking about Cecil Rhodes:

http://files.meetup.com/196633/CAROL%20QUIGLEY.pdf (http://files.meetup.com/196633/CAROL%20QUIGLEY.pdf)

When speaking of the Rockefellers, well, we know that they were financied by the agents of House of Rothschild put in place in the US. Yes, is a lot of actors in this global drama, but you must know that in any hierarquical structure, there is A TOP in the chain of Power. Be careful not to be distracted researching the agents and by that been confused (by Josephus design) mixin' up the smoke with the fire. When you are talking about England, read please the references Christopher Marlowe was giving you. Discover who is behind the throne of England and you will discover why they are not opposing this power. Look right here at the first link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell#King_tried_and_executed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion

QuoteAs Lord Protector, Cromwell was aware of the contribution the Jewish community made to the economic success of Holland, now England's leading commercial rival. It was this—allied to Cromwell's toleration of the right to private worship of those who fell outside evangelical Puritanism—that led to his encouraging Jews to return to England in 1657, over 350 years after their banishment by Edward I, in the hope that they would help speed up the recovery of the country after the disruption of the Civil Wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell

There is a lot I could write but for now I 'll leave you with this : House of Rothschild/Oppenheimer & Co. are not just bankers. They are all coming from ancients families of Rabbis/ Warlords of the Kabbalah.  We all want a better world for our children and mankind, we hate Opression and Domination and we will not stop fighting this imperial power even if the research seeking the truth take us to political incorrect places.  We are against criminals and the investigation is taking us in the direction of the financial/industry of war elites, that've been the case.

When researching the elites, beware of the plant traps on the way so you don't get catch pointing at the smoke instead of the fire . . .

(http://www.furkills.org/images/fox.jpg)

greetings, /tab



 

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Brilliant summary Tab.

The picture at the bottom was an an excellent representation of how these false stories "trap" us, and prevent us from discovering the Truth.  

But it made me sad.   :(

The Heretics' Hour: Wall Street, International Banking, & Adolf Hitler

May 17, 2010 · Print This Article
Adolf Hitler & Hjalmar Schacht

Carolyn Yeager separates myth from fact and the real from the rogue on this complicated subject, deconstructing the crazy-quilt world of conspiracy theorizing about the German Führer. Topic include:

    * Conspiracy theories questioned
    * The cause of the Weimar hyperinflation
    * Hitler's economic miracle based on sovereign credit principles
    * Today's financial crises
    * A Russian opinion poll on Katyn

13 MB / 32 kbps mono / 0 hour 57 min.

http://reasonradionetwork.com/?p=7260 (http://reasonradionetwork.com/?p=7260)

http://reasonradionetwork.com/_archive/ ... 100517.mp3 (http://reasonradionetwork.com/_archive/VoR_The_Heretics_Hour_20100517.mp3)

Great post, Tab, and Christopher Marlowe, I wasn't aware of that aspect of the beheading of king Charles and William of Orange.

Makes perfect sense, and I was aware that the Bank of England's control over British currency and William of Orange were connected, but I hadn't done the research.

I do know that William of Orange was a Stewart though.   He didn't become king just because of his wife - he too was connected to that Scottish royal Stewart family, and so was a descendent of Arloga and her father Vladimir I of Kiev and his Khazar descended wife Anna of Porphyrogenita ... Therein lies the rub in my view, which I'm gonna make clearer below.  

Maybe some of you guys might think I'm somehow an apologist for Jewish/Zionist control (to me, equivalent to destruction of everything potentially good about this world).   I'm not.  

A friend recently posted a short video titled 'Who Created the Modern State of Israel?!' at another website, which I responded to and we had some discussion.

The flick was made by a woman, I don't know her name, who previously had made a long movie titled 'Ring of Power', which I had some problems with for inaccuracies.  That eventually led to this post, which I will duplicate here because I feel that it clearly represents my point of view.   I'm posting it as I wrote it, it is somewhat long.  

.......................

Sorry it took a little while to get back to you, Quest.   I went back and watched that again, it's a pretty good flick and I give her a thumbs up for her efforts and for telling a part of the story which few people are aware of.  But again, her view is somewhat myopic IMO.   Here's a perfect example, the idea that the Rothschilds horse-traded with England for a piece of Palestine in return for US involvement in WWI.  This is sort of accurate but only part of the story.  One motivating factor for the fighting of the first World War was that oil had been discovered in Persia, and  the Turks threatened the Standard Oil/Royal Dutch Shell oil monopoly by their and their German allies' presence in the Middle East.  So kicking the Turks out served not just the Rothschilds who controlled Royal Dutch Shell, but the British whose Navy had switched from coal to oil, and the Rockefellers in the US who owned Standard Oil.  Setting up a British Mandate/fledgeling Jewish state in Palestine after the war served these interests, because it provided a sort of security apparatus in the area.  Secondly, the endowed foundations in the US had been discussing how to get the US involved in WWI from before the war even started - going back to 1908-9 in the case of the Carnegie Endowment according to Norman Dodd.  

I mentioned little inaccuracies as well, like the Rothschild red-shield featuring the Star of David, this is an oft repeated rumor for which there is no evidence (it was probably a two-headed eagle).   But I want to get past all that - where she and I really differ is on a much more fundamental level.   This will take some explaining, but I'm going to try and put it all in a post here (for the record).

The lady who made Ring of Power, if I'm reading her right, builds from the premise that the Hyksos kings of Egypt and the Israelites were one and the same people, and that the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt and the 'exodus' of the Hebrews from Egypt to the holy land were one and the same event.   I've looked into this and as far as I can tell, she is correct.   So far we are totally in agreement.   I should say here that it's widely accepted that the Hyksos originally came from northern Canaan/northwest Mesopotamia (an area colored orange on the map below).  The Hyksos were warlike, they had better chariots than the Egyptians, better (composite) bows and their invasion of Egypt nearly 4000 years ago was brutal and bloody.  

Here's how Manetho, the Egyptian historian described the Hysksos invasion -

Quote...a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land.  By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others... Aegyptiaca., frag. 42, 1.75-79.2

There were officially 6 Hyksos kings of Egypt who ruled in the 15th and 16th dynasties, until Egypt re-liberated itself and kicked the Hyksos out.  

On the map below #1 would be the Hyksos invasion of Egypt, and #2 would be their expulsion and return to the Levant, to what would become Judea/Israel.

She then (I'm still talking about Ring of Power) connects a slew of place names to the Tribe of Dan, one of the Israelite tribes, and a tribe that was known for its pagan leanings and its seafaring abilities. Names like Denmark, Sardonia, the Don, Danube, Dniester and Dnieper rivers, Danmoni, which meant the (tin) "mines of Dan" which is now Cornwall, Scan-Din-avia, a bunch of Scottish place names like AberDeen and E-Din-burgh can all potentially be linked to the Tribe of Dan (or some other "Dan" people?) and the list is endless.  #3 below would be the Tribe of Dan setting out to conquer the world -

(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6070/ringmigration.gif)

OK, here's a slightly different version of events which I believe to be more complete.  The clues which lead me to believe this are numerous and include, first, something the Greek historian Hecateus wrote about the expulsion of the Hyksos:

Quote"The expelled foreigners followed Danaus and Cadmus from Egypt; but the greater number were led by Moses into Judæa"

Danaus and Cadmus may or may not have been real people, but they represent a migration of tribes from Egypt to Greece.  Everything back then was recorded in myth form, just like the bible. If one can to take this into account and read between the lines, the myths tell us alot about ancient Greece.

Anyway, in the Greek myths there are two pairs of brothers born in Egypt, Aegyptus and Danaus, and Cadmus and Phoenix.  Cadmus and Phoenix set out from Egypt and arrive in Phoenicia (the Levant/Canaan) where Phoenix remains. (It is for him of course that the Greeks called Canaan Phoenicia.)  His brother Cadmus however continues on to Greece, where he slays the Ares dragon and settles Thebes. Thebes BTW, was also the name of a city in Egypt from which many of the Egyptian Pharaohs ruled.  Danaus (note, a "Dan" term!) was a mythical cousin of Cadmus and Phoenix, and he goes straight from Egypt to Greece (or in a different version stops at the island of Rhodes along the way.  There's a whole thing about the 50 sons and 50 daughters of Aegyptus and Danaus, but it's not pertinent so I'll skip all that).  

An interesting correlation between Danau and the Dan of the bible is that Danaus was the son of a king Belus, while the patriarch of the Tribe of Dan was the son of the handmaiden Bilah - somewhat similar names which I suspect both derive from Bel or Ba'al, the Canaanite diety.  Then there is one other figure, Dardanus, who may have been just mythical or may have been a real person, or at least represented real people.  Dardanus migrated from Egypt to Greece and kept going, settling in western Anatolia and founding the city of Dardania on Mt. Ida.  The nearby Dardanelles, a straight which separates Asia and Europe, were named for Dardanus.   This fellow is important because the Trojan kings allegedly trace back to him, Dardanus' grandson was Tros, for whom Troy was named.    

So, you have these and other clues, both mythical and historical, which point to this scenaro: #1, the Hyksos invade Egypt.  (The maker of Ring of Power and I are in full agreement so far.)  #2, the Egyptians kick the Hyksos out, and the line SPLITS.   Some return to the Levant, as represented in the biblical Exodus to become the tribes of Israel and Judea, while others take off in their ships for Greece.  Some remain there and are known as the Danaans, while others move into western Anatolia and Thrace to become Trojan tribes.  Eventually the Trojans lose the Trojan war and many move to the opposite side of the Black Sea, among these peoples are the Aesir and probably Vanir ancestors of the Vikings, and other tribes which will become the Franks, most notably the Cimmerians.  That migration is represented below as #3.  

(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2787/mymigration.gif)


Also worth noting, the Spartans were probably part of this migration (#2), as is revealed in myth where the Spartan soldiers spring from the teeth of the Ares dragon which Cadmus had slayed (and then planted its teeth in the ground).  Also, there is a passage in the 'Antiquities of the Jews' Book 12 by the 1st century Jewish historian Josephus, where Areus, King Of The Lacedemonians (Spartans) sends a letter to Onius I who was a high priest in Judea at the time (3rd century B.C.), translated:

Quote"Areus, King Of The Lacedemonians, To Onias, Sendeth Greeting.

"We have met with a certain writing, whereby we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of one stock, and are derived from the kindred of Abraham.  It is but just therefore that you, who are our brethren, should send to us about any of your concerns as you please. We will also do the same thing, and esteem your concerns as our own, and will look upon our concerns as in common with yours. Demoteles, who brings you this letter, will bring your answer back to us. This letter is four-square; and the seal is an eagle, with a dragon in his claws."

The eagle and the dragon (snake actually) were both used as marks of the Tribe of Dan on their banner at different times, and here are described as being on the official seal of the Spartans.  One other thing, the name Sparta probably derives from Subartu, which was an area between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers in northwestern Mesopotamia, the right portion of the area I colored orange on my map.  In between Subartu and the coast I found the name Chalybonitis on an old map, which indicates that the Chalybes/Halybes of Colchis (modern day Georgia) in the Caucasus near the Black Sea during the Greek/Trojan era were also originally from this Ba'al worshipping area.  These Halybes were famous for their weapon-making expertise and apparently gave king Arthur's sword its name, Ex-Calibur (the 'Ex' was for the Exe river in Devon).  

Regarding the linking of European place names to the Tribe of Dan, the "Dan" people who invaded Ireland in antiquity were the Tuatha de Danaan, who are described as having sojourned in Greece and as being a Scythian people - which would make it very unlikely that they and the Tribe of Dan were one and the same.   My view is that the name Dan has deeper significance and that the Tribe of Dan, the Danaan of Greece and the Tuatha de Danaan were simply closely related tribes, probably who all shared a history in Egypt.

Then you have the Huns, or I should say nomadic Hunnic tribes, who also seem to have originated from this little area on the northern Levant I've been talking about. (Evidence here http://urokomovie.com/huns.shtml )  They go all the way to Mongolia (#1 below), fight with the Chinese who call them the "Xiongnu" (while Xiongnu and Chinese Han royalty intermarry a bit), suffer defeats in the 1st century and (#2) head back to Scythia (later to become Khazaria).  Meanwhile the former Trojan tribes of the Black Sea region are migrating into northern Europe and Scandinavia (#3) and will become known alternately as the Franks and the Vikings.  The Saxons are probably part of this same migration too, for the Saka were Scythians. The Huns tried to take over parts of Europe in the 4th and 5th centuries (#4), this is when Attila lived.   Finally in the 9th century the Magyars (closely related to the Huns or a tribe in the Hunnic federation depending on what you read) along with another Khazarian tribe the Kabars, take over Hungary, while on the other side of Europe Rollo and his Vikings take over northern France.  Following these invasions the ruling families of these Vikings and Khazar/Huns and the Frank and Saxon dynasties that are already in place start to intermarry.

(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/104/hunmigration.gif)

(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7475/khazarvikingmigraton.gif)

That's a whole 'nother big topic that I hesitate to get into, but I will mention that the blood connections between various Germanic houses (like Wettin, Wittelsbach, Hohenstauffen, Babenberg and Brunswick), English, Scot and Frank/Norman royalty, and the noble families of Europe active in the Crusades form a sort of spider web with two related families at its center - the family of Vladimir Grand Prince of Kiev and the Arpad family, the descendents of Attila the Hun who ruled Hungary beginning at the end of the 9th century. This is a highly simplified genealogy, but it gives the idea:

http://urokomovie.com/melissena_genealogy.html

I can't overstate how closely allied the family of Vladimir and this son Yaroslav, who ruled the Ukraine from Kiev, and the Hungarian ruling Arpad family were ... Andrew Arpad, before ascending the throne and becoming King of Hungary lived in exile in Kiev under Yaroslav's protection, and the families are related by marraige - Andrew married Yaroslav's sister Anastasia.  The hier to the English throne, Edward the Exile lived there too, and while the identity of his wife (Agatha) is disputed, she may well have been one of Vladimir's younger daughters.  The daughter of Edward and Agatha, Margaret, was born in Hungary after  they moved there with Andrew who had become king, and she wound up marrying Malcom III king of Scotland and siring the wife and queen of Henry II of England.  If Margaret's mother was a daughter of Vladimir (and there is good evidence she was), her grandmother would have been Anna Porphyrogenita, a Byzantine Princess (a wife of Vladimir's).  She in turn was a close descendent of Melissena, whose ancestors included royal Khazars and Huns.  This Melissena and two of her descendents, one of which (Anna) married Vladimir and another Byzantine princess who married a German Holy Roman Emperor (more about that below) may be very important, for it was the route whereby Khazar royal blood mixed with that of the rest of European royalty.   There is a conspicuous assortment of blue and white coats of arms which follows Melissena's blood descendents and the Jewish/Khazar entry into Germanic Europe around and includes the blue and white checked Bavarian flag.  This color theme appears to originate with the coat of arms of Melissena's grandfather, the Byzantine Emperor Rangabe I.  Above Margaret's head on a stained glass window in a church in Scotland is this same crest - a white cross with fleur-de-lis tips on a blue background, indicating that indeed Margaret's mother was the daughter of Vladimir by Anna Porphyrogenita, hence of royal Khazar descent.  (It is critical to note that the Israeli flag is also blue and white.)  

(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9928/margaretchapel.gif)

...That doesn't mean Margaret was Jewish, nor were Anna nor Anna's royal Byzantine ancestors who were in fact Christian, but when Margaret and king Malcom of Scotland later had a son, they named him David - a decidedly Hebrew name for the son of a Scottish pagan king (!).  Meanwhile king Andrew of Hungary, also married to a daughter of Vladimir whose mother may also have been Anna of Porphyrogenita, named one of his sons Solomon.   Very peculiar names indeed for Christian kings at the time, in Hungary or in Scotland.

(By the way, Melissena's significance with regard to the introduction of royal Khazar blood into European royalty was (many and I are convinced) honored in her being immortalized in the myth of Melusine, the mermaid on the Starbucks coffee logo.)        

... Finally, there is the family crest of Vlad, a family which I and at least one [url="http]very smart person[/url] I know of believe descend from this same Vladimir of Kiev, who was very prolific and sired dozens of kids legitimately and probably hundreds illegitimately (he had maybe 800 concubines).  

Check it out - also blue and white, it's practically the flag of Israel:

(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8638/vlad.gif)

This pagan symbol, like the crest of Vlad, is of course much older than its use as a symbol of Judaism, and Vladimir was a ruthless pagan (although he converted to Christianity as a condition of marriage to Anna).

The star of David can be found on lots of crests in the elite circle of (non-Jewish) families - one very conspicuous one is the coat of arms of the Payen family:

(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5888/payen.gif)

Payen meant 'Pagan', and Hughe de Payen was the leader of the original 9 Templar Knights.

So, what am I really getting at?  The Franks, the Vikings, the Huns (which I believe included the Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars, Kabars, White Huns Black Huns and Red Huns etc.), maybe the Saxons (I haven't really looked much at them), the ruling class of which together formed the aristocracy of medieval Europe and Britain, and of course the Israelites and Israelite refugees who may well have been part of the Jewish Khazar ruling elite, were ALL originally Hebrews from Canaan, or at least their leaders were, and they were all infamous for their warring ways and excelled at conquering indigenous peoples wherever they went and taking over.  One thing, when I say 'Hebrew', it's very important to understand what I mean.  Hebrews were people descended from Eber, an ancestor of Abraham ... saying someone is Hebrew doesn't mean they are Jewish, and therein lies the rub.   We could extract ourselves from all this food fighting about Jewish involvement in a conspiracy to run the world if people could learn a bit about history and call it what it really is ... a HEBREW conspiracy.  

Anyway, back to topic, one has to wonder if the rulers of these various peoples, who fought one another from time to time, understood this common ancestral connection, or their kinship with the Israelites?   I don't know - but the Franks probably understood their own Trojan roots for they named the capital of Champagne Troyes, interestingly where some of the original Templar knights hailed from.  Furthermore there was a Merovingian named Samson, the Merovingians advertised an alleged blood connection to Mary Magdalene, and Charlemagne sent to the Caliph of Baghdad for "seed" of the Davidic line of kings of Israel, receiving in return Rabbi Makhir who he showered with lands, title and a Frankish wife.      

I left some things out, there's more to the story, there's a lot I don't know, and one can't be 100% certain of any of this stuff, but there are a lot of clues floating around which all point to this sort of history, and there is DEFINITELY some sort of effort to keep this stuff secret - to keep the controversy couched in an 'us against the Jews' format.  Every time I stumble on a particularly significant point of interest to my inquiry, there is controversy, there is censorship - and I mean the available resources going back hundreds of years.  

One last thing, something really surprising I just discovered.  Lots of people have tried to figure out the roots of the Rothschild family, with no success.   But there is another Jewish family nearly as important as the Rothschilds, who have been close allies of the Rothschilds for 2 centuries as well as the owners of the oldest privately held bank in the world, the Warburgs.  Paul Warburg, architect of the Federal Reserve act and his younger brother Max Warburg, head of I.G.Farben before WWII and a director at the Reichsbank at the time are important figures, as everyone knows.  

So I was looking at the Warburgs listed at a genealogy site I like and I saw a bunch of Konrad von Wargergs.  The name Konrad is a red flag to me, you see the name all the time when you go poking around the lineages of Germanic kings and counts and landgraves.   Conrad II was a Holy Roman Emperor and there were a bunch of Conrad or Konrad kings of Germany, Conrad III being the first one of the house of Hohenstauffen (the Cohen family crest is identical to the Hohen crest except for a color change from blue to red) not to mention a slew of Conrad Counts of Bavaria, Swabia and Luxembourgh.

Anyway, go to this link and click on Konrad VI von Warberg's great-grandfather, Konrad von Werberg.    

http://fabpedigree.com/s088/f974686.htm

Then on that page, click on his great-grandfather Konrad I Count of Hagen.  You'll see on his mother's side back a few generations Otto of Saxony and his mother Oda Billung of Thurungia.  Oda Billung of Thurungia was Frank nobility and was possibly the great-granddaughter of Charlemagne.  Her son Otto's son was Henry the Fowler (!), his grandson was Otto the Great, and his son, Otto II was a Holy Roman Emperor ... AND, Otto II married Theophanu of Byzantium who was a close descendent of Melissena, through who royal Khazar  blood flowed into the royal houses of Europe, both through this connection and the marriage of Vladimir (the above-mentioned Grand Prince of Kiev) to Anna Porphyrogenita (one of two royal Khazar-blood pipelines, as I have mentioned - see same [url="http]genealogy link as above[/url], Otto I and Otto II are near the top just left of center.)

And here they all are connected to the Warburg family !!!

One can look at things going on today or in recent history and point to the disruptive and criminal activities of Zionists as well as Jewish bankers at the head of a financial pyramid which controls much of the central banking around the world.  No problems from me there.  But when you try to trace the Jewish faction of the ruling elite back in time (as she attempts to do in Ring of Power) what you find, if you aren't prejuduced to a preconceived POV and let the chips fall where they may, is that the Vikings, Franks, Saxons and Huns who literally built Europe and Britain and the Israelites all have the same roots (at least with regard to the rulers of these peoples), some even appear to have been in Egypt with the proto-Israelites.  The lady who made Ring of Power sort of connects the Israelites to the Vikings, but she does so by claiming that the Vikings were really the Tribe of Dan (??).   Maybe some of them were, but there's a ton of clues that say the Viking and Frank kings descend from the Trojans, who were never in Judea but came to the Agean from Egypt - which explains perfectly the long-held obsession of the western elite with Egyptian symbols. It  is these deep connections between the Jewish banking elite and the Christian ruling elite (all Zionists really, since the first Crusade), connections between the Templars and their Freemason hiers and the Jewish merchants in Portugal, Spain, England and Holland, that tell me that the two are and have long been intimately linked - kissing cousins if you will.  

My problems with movies like this and Ring of Power isn't that she makes minor errors, or that she directs blame for the world's troubles toward Jewish banking families like the Rothschilds ... it's that she leaves the non-Jewish elite out of the equation, and fails to differentiate between Hebrew and Jew.

..............................

End of my post to "Quest".

What do you think of these movies?

Mother Goddess & the Dragon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clq-Giqv ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clq-GiqvL9o&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxVhLcCH8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxVhLcCH8w)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ZT-IOf0gM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ZT-IOf0gM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoThe9EzcaE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoThe9EzcaE)

I thought "Ring of Power" was interesting and well told, but my bullsh*t detector went off several times during the screening.  For example: Vikings were the Six (VI) Kings? That just sounds like pure crap. I have a hard enough time trying to filter out the fake history without Dan Brown inventions being interjected.  

Although this ancient history is interesting, and there are a lot of interesting stories, their effect on what is happening now is minimal. What difference would it make to these people whether they were descendants of Dan or Cecil the Sea Serpent?

Putting myself into their shoes, I imagine that I am the scion of the Rothschild vipers. Grandpa Izzy Rothschild invites me into his study on my 12th birthday and tells me the secret and very ancient story of my lineage. Four hours later, I'm passing in and out of consciousness and Grandpa is only on the 8th century.  He has taken a break to investigate the correct pronunciation of my 51st Great Grandma, a Khazar Princess who married the Duke of Moravia. My father has made some excuse to leave the room and will not be coming back any time soon. "So what, Grandpa?" I say to myself.  "How much money do we have and where do we keep it all?"

The three B's of zionist influence (bribery, blackmail and bullets) seem to have more to do with influencing current events than anything that happened 200 years ago, let alone 1,000.  And if I consider the huge conspiracy necessary to shape world events, it is understandable that this conspiracy would be impossible to hide. Therefore discovering this conspiracy is really only a matter of allowing myself to see it.

The French Connection site and DBS' audio library makes the most compelling argument to explain world events that I have ever heard. It is really very simple and it doesn't require any dodgy arguments. The zionist/jewish/hebrew/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it influence always rears its ugly head. There is always a very small and well organized cabal of super rich bankers using the 3 Bs to gain power.

The Protocols of Zion may be a forgery or a hoax, but those people are using a playbook that is remarkably similar: They loan money at interest. They take possession of collateral. They gain influence in politics. They blackmail and bribe until they control governments.  They kill anyone who won't go for the first two. They raise armies and start wars. They intermarry into powerful positions. They control all the media. They use drugs and pornography to demoralize their enemies.

And this cabal is very easy to see once I allowed myself to see it.  When we look at who is running the world today, who owns all the media? Who Controls the US government, and most of Europe's governments? Who owns all the banks? Who are, by their own admission, the majority of the top influential people in the world? And yet they make up less than 1% of the world population.  

That is not an accident or serendipity. That is the result of bankers loaning at interest for centuries. It is all very simple; only the interest is compounded.  

And this very simple answer makes so much more sense than Knights Templar or Jesuits running a secret order.  After seeing the very simple operation of how the Jews control the Political centers, the Banks and the Media, why would I look elsewhere. That would be the equivalent to someone showing me the engine of a car and watching it operate, and then afterwards I resolve to discover WHAT REALLY RUNS THE CAR.  (The engine runs the car. The engine runs the car.)

After Walt and Meirscheimer wrote their "israel Lobby" book, which showed how the zionists control the US government and started the Iraq war, many people simply dismissed that book as "antisemitic". The book is a scholarly work, and the authors bend over backward not to offend Jews, but it still gets the label because that is the way these people deal with the Truth. That book shows the ENGINE that brought our country to war, and people didn't want to see it.  The engine is too big to ignore. The cabal is too large to hide. The only way to stop people from seeing it is to lie, and distract.  

After 9/11, the US intelligence services, (which must be filled with 100% of the dumbest, most chickensh*t robot p*ssies you can think of), failed to find out who did it. Instead they all continued to talk about the 19 hijackers that the media dragged out in the 24 hours after the event.  But thousands of people with computers got on the "internets" with their little 56k modem on AOL and they shared info on the blogs. They put the real picture together by using little pieces from the MSM clippings. They found out about Odigo, and Zim and PTECH. The found about about all the mossad arrested that day, and about the israeli spy ring, and the celebrating israelis. The found out about the WTC sale to zionist jews just before 9/11.  They found out about the Clean Break and PNAC documents, and about the cabal of zionist Jews who wrote and signed them.  All of the information in the MonkeySeeMonkeyDo Treatise™ is the culmination of the work of many researchers. The obvious cabal of zionist Jews cannot be hidden because it is too large. It is not seen by the MSM because, strangely enough, the MSM is owned by the zionist Jews, which is coincidentally what the Protocols say. But there is that engine again.  And when we were protesting 9/11 in front of the israeli embassy, many Jews came by and made us out to be anti-semites. And afterwards, I walked back to my car, wondering if I would be arrested for carrying my "israel DID 9/11" sign in front of the holohoax memorial.  

And the Worldwide banking collapse, when looked at logically, is not an accident. It is not caused by some nameless clerk typing a "B" instead of an "M". It is the result of a plan. It is what happens when banks loan money at interest, inflate prices by making cheap money available, sell worthless paper on these inflated prices, and compound the problems by selling derivatives based on that worthless paper. Flooding the market with credit and then withdrawing the money supply will cause businesses to fail. It has worked for centuries. And the banking cabal has been revealed. And many authors have shown this to be an intentional plan. And the banks are run by zionist Jews.  Surprise.

Over and over we see the strings exposed that show how the puppet is controlled. We keep tracing the strings back to the puppeteer, who happens to be Jewish.  The engine is exposed. Coincidence. Anti-semite. Why do you hate Jews so much? Why do you want to gas the Jews in the tiny brick ovens and cut off their lousy hair and stuff mattresses and then bury them and then dig them up and light bonfires with the fat ones on the bottom and use their skin to make lampshades and their earwax to make car polish and Ann Frank lived in the closet for 6 years with only raisins to eat?

I contrast this obvious proof of a conspiracy with the long ago stories of VI Kings and the tribe of Dan, whose name is now so prominent: Danube, Dandruff, Dandelion, Dante's Inferno, Dancing With the Stars, Daniel Radcliffe, Danke Shoen.  Whatever truth there might be in those past associations, their relevance is comparable to those other things long past: 8 Track tapes, the winner of Super Bowl VI, President of the United States Millard Filmore...

The gas is injected into the combustion chamber; the spark ignites the gas and that explosion sends the piston downward, turning the drive shaft, which turns the wheels that move the car forward. There is no need to look elsewhere.

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"What do you think of these movies?

Mother Goddess & the Dragon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clq-Giqv ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clq-GiqvL9o&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxVhLcCH8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxVhLcCH8w)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ZT-IOf0gM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ZT-IOf0gM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoThe9EzcaE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoThe9EzcaE)

I thought they were great.  

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"I thought "Ring of Power" was interesting and well told, but my bullsh*t detector went off several times during the screening. For example: Vikings were the Six (VI) Kings? That just sounds like pure crap. I have a hard enough time trying to filter out the fake history without Dan Brown inventions being interjected.

Agreed.   My net-friend thought I would enjoy 'Ring of Power' but I wasn't very impressed.

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"Putting myself into their shoes, I imagine that I am the scion of the Rothschild vipers. Grandpa Izzy Rothschild invites me into his study on my 12th birthday and tells me the secret and very ancient story of my lineage. Four hours later, I'm passing in and out of consciousness and Grandpa is only on the 8th century....

ROFL.  Then again, in this anecdote grandpa Rothschild is probably gonna sit the 12 year old scion back down when he comes back from the toilet and finish his story, and make sure the his grandson knows why he's going to rule the world and how he wound up there.  

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"The French Connection site...

I'm not familiar with that.  Got a link?

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"The zionist/jewish/hebrew/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it influence always rears its ugly head...

And what I'm saying is that the Vikings, Franks, Saxons, Huns and Khazars that displaced the Roman Empire were all originally Hebrew tribes, as were the Israelites.  In the case of us peons everyone marries everyone else and the cultural integrity is soon gone but in the case of the elite where the ruling class intermarry, it stays more or less intact, just like Jewish cultural integrity has stayed intact.  OK, I'll grant, even agree that the Jewish banking elite are the engine.  Would you not concede that the fuel tank, spark plugs, transmission and steering are the non-Jewish elite?  These are the people who gather in the Bohemian Grove every summer to watch a mock sacrifice at the alter of Moloch. WTF is that about?   They're connected at the hip to the Jewish elite historically not by just the connections I keep talking about, but also the Templar/Freemasonic-Jewish alliance that was behind the East India Companies that colonized the world in the first place.  Remember, the Freemasons evolved from the Templars, who aren't just a distraction IMO, they were the first international bankers, they had permission to charge usury and, along with their Hebrew ancestry (as Normans) and Gnostic beliefs, therein lies the basis for their alliance with Jewish investors and merchants.      

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"hey found out about Odigo, and Zim and PTECH. The found about about all the mossad arrested that day, and about the israeli spy ring, and the celebrating israelis. The found out about the WTC sale to zionist jews just before 9/11... <s>... And afterwards, I walked back to my car, wondering if I would be arrested for carrying my "israel DID 9/11" sign in front of the holohoax memorial.

But wasn't the arrest of the dancing Israelis suspicious?   They danced around in several locations, they identified themselves to police immediately as Israeli.  Looked to me like "open complicity" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31jTJjwgOg ), like they were trying to get arrested.  Not that Mossad wasn't involved, of course they were.  But was it an Israeli operation?  What about the Joint Chiefs?  What about the Secret Service, the CIA, NORAD?   They were involved too.   You can believe that Israel and Zionists have so much power in the back halls of US government agencies that they could pull this off themselves, in which case all this stuff I'm talking about is indeed unimportant and a distraction, or that the roots of the Israeli/Zionist element and the non-Jewish business/political elite in America are so intertwined and the two are in such cahoots that they essentially form a single ruling block.

Joe Biden: "We are all Zionists".

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The One & Only, Mr Eustance Mullins

(http://www.awakentothetruth.com/IMAGES/eustace_mullins.jpg)

An Video Interview with Eustace Mullins

Eustace Mullins was the first author who has exposed the true nature of the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States. He is also the last living protegee of Ezra Pound and was a good friend of the great Author Anthony Sutton. Even thought he would have deserved a nobel prize in literature for his writings, he is unfortunately mostly unknown to the public, because his books concern the hottest topics you can write about.


http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=940661526373589672#


Disclaimer: I respect Mr Mullins very much, but I'm in favour of Fiat Money because the Global Banking Houses are doing a tremendous effort on putting a Difamation "spell" stygma label at this very same concept. Real Fiat Money is based on a land's enormous treasures and the work of humans/human technology living in that land. So, the concept have been hijacked and is living among the emancipation community like is was a "bad thing". Money is not the issue, the control of it is. Please see this video interview in its entirety. /tab


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Quote from: "/tab".
...Money is not the issue, the control of it is. Please see this video interview in its entirety. /tab

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I agree.  My favorite economist is Ellen Brown -  toward the end of this talk she discusses the Bank of North Dakota, the country's only state-owned bank, which has made that state immune to many of the financial problems of the other states.  
http://vodpod.com/watch/2156169-ellen-b ... e-reversed (http://vodpod.com/watch/2156169-ellen-brown-financial-meltdown-why-it-happened-and-how-it-can-be-reversed)

QuoteThe three B's of zionist influence (bribery, blackmail and bullets) seem to have more to do with influencing current events than anything that happened 200 years ago, let alone 1,000. And if I consider the huge conspiracy necessary to shape world events, it is understandable that this conspiracy would be impossible to hide. Therefore discovering this conspiracy is really only a matter of allowing myself to see it.

The French Connection site and DBS' audio library makes the most compelling argument to explain world events that I have ever heard. It is really very simple and it doesn't require any dodgy arguments. The zionist/jewish/hebrew/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it influence always rears its ugly head. There is always a very small and well organized cabal of super rich bankers using the 3 Bs to gain power.

The Protocols of Zion may be a forgery or a hoax, but those people are using a playbook that is remarkably similar: They loan money at interest. They take possession of collateral. They gain influence in politics. They blackmail and bribe until they control governments. They kill anyone who won't go for the first two. They raise armies and start wars. They intermarry into powerful positions. They control all the media. They use drugs and pornography to demoralize their enemies.

Truly spoken and important....

Quote

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"hey found out about Odigo, and Zim and PTECH. The found about about all the mossad arrested that day, and about the israeli spy ring, and the celebrating israelis. The found out about the WTC sale to zionist jews just before 9/11... <s>... And afterwards, I walked back to my car, wondering if I would be arrested for carrying my "israel DID 9/11" sign in front of the holohoax memorial.

But wasn't the arrest of the dancing Israelis suspicious?   They danced around in several locations, they identified themselves to police immediately as Israeli.  Looked to me like "open complicity" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31jTJjwgOg ), like they were trying to get arrested.  Not that Mossad wasn't involved, of course they were.  But was it an Israeli operation?  What about the Joint Chiefs?  What about the Secret Service, the CIA, NORAD?   They were involved too.   You can believe that Israel and Zionists have so much power in the back halls of US government agencies that they could pull this off themselves, in which case all this stuff I'm talking about is indeed unimportant and a distraction, or that the roots of the Israeli/Zionist element and the non-Jewish business/political elite in America are so intertwined and the two are in such cahoots that they essentially form a single ruling block.

Joe Biden: "We are all Zionists".

I agree with all points Christopher said above.  9/11 was an Jewish crime - that had nothing to do with ancient bloodlines which at the end of the day are unimportant if they can even be reasonably proven beyond a doubt.

uroko you've looked at MSMD's "Israel Did 9/11" research haven't you?  It wasn't Snake-Oil bloodlines that pulled this off.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5367 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5367)


And you've read this by Andrew Carrington Hitchcock?

QuoteIn 740 A.D. in a land locked between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, known as Khazaria, a land which today is predominantly occupied by Georgia, but also reaches into Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, and Romania, the modern Jewish race is born. A modern Jewish race that incidentally is not Jewish.

How can this be, you ask? Well at that time, the Khazarian people felt a vulnerable people as they had Muslims one side of them and Christians the other side of them, and thus constantly feared attack from either side. Furthermore, the Khazarian people were of neither faith and instead practiced idol worship, which made them ripe for invasion by a people who wished to convert them to an established faith.

The Khazarian King, King Bulan, decided in order to protect themselves against attack, the Khazarian people must convert to one of these faiths, but which one? If they converted to the Muslim faith they would risk attack by the Christians and if they converted to the Christian faith they would risk attack by the Muslims.

He had an idea. There was another race that he was aware were able to deal with both the Muslims and the Christians either side of him, predominantly in matters of trade. A race which also dealt with Khazarians in the same manner. That race was the Jews. King Bulan decided if he instructed his people to convert to Judaism he could keep both the Muslims and the Christians happy, as they were both already willing to trade with the Jews, so this is what he did.

King Bulan was right. He would live to see his country unconquered, his people convert to Judaism enthusiastically and adopt the principles of the most holy Jewish book, the Talmud. There are many things the king would not live to see, however.

He would not live to see his Asiatic race of converts to Judaism, one day represent 90% of all the Jews on the planet, and call themselves Ashkenazi Jews, when in fact they were not Jews, but simply an Asiatic race of people who converted to the Jewish religion, whilst still continuing to speak the Khazarian language of Yiddish, totally different to the language of Hebrew.

He would not live to see his people turn to the descendants of a man, far more powerful than him, who would be born just over 1,000 years later in Germany, a man named Bauer, who would spawn the Rothschild dynasty.

He would not live to see this dynasty usurp the wealth of the world through deception and intrigue, which they would finance through the vast riches they accumulate as they usurp the wealth of the world by gaining control of the world's money supply.

He would not live to see his people demand a homeland for themselves in Palestine as their birthright, and ensure every Prime Minister there from its inception in 1948 is an Ashkenazi Jew, even though the true homeland of the Ashkenazi Jews, Khazaria, is his kingdom, some 800 miles away.

And he would not live to see his people fulfil bible prophecy, as the, "Synagogue of Satan."

http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andr ... 0-1818.htm (http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/Synagogue.of.Satan/0740-1818.htm)

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Are you here to help in the fight?  For you know, your material could easily be used by an "AJ" type character to try and derail research into their (Jews) crimes...

Whaler nails it here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&p=43344#p43343 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=43344#p43343)

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"

QuoteQuoted from Andrew Carrington Hitchcock ...In 740 A.D. in a land locked between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, known as Khazaria, a land which today is predominantly occupied by Georgia, but also reaches into Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, and Romania, the modern Jewish race is born. A modern Jewish race that incidentally is not Jewish...

This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at !!!   Are my communication skills that bad???  Look at Georgia's flag - the flag of Jerusalem, the Cross of St. George, the Templar banner (identical).   Georgia is the most Zionistic US/Britain/Israel-allied country on the planet.  The flag was re-introduced by the Bagratid clan following the fall of the Soviet Union, a family which had ruled that country for most of the past thousand years and who are blood related to the ancient Byzantine Emperors and the Hebrew pagans of the northern Levant.  Ukraine is just about as Zionistic and pro-west, also the stomping grounds of these people, these families, and was once part of this Khazarian Empire.  The coat of arms of Vlad - practically the Israeli Flag - because Vlad was Pagan and later Christian he and his descendents can't be part of the puzzle?   The ancestors of the Warburg family - because they were Christian ruling aristocracy they aren't relevant?  

Personally, with Joe Biden saying stuff like "we are all Zionists", with the non-Jewish elite in the US and Britain holding hands with Jewish bankers all the way to throwing the Palestinians out of Palestine and wrecking the economies of the world, I think the connections are relevant.

My POV isn't that elite Jewish bankers aren't evil and in control - it's that they and the Christian elite are ethnic cousins and have been holding hands for a millennium.  It took me many years to figure this out.  And anyone who thinks history isn't relevant is fooling themselves, IMO.  

CSR, you asked me if I just post here in this thread or if I had looked around the site and read some of the other information available here.  I have looked around, I did so when I first arrived.   I found nothing any different from the things I've been reading for years, and it didn't interest me.   This particular thread is about this particular argument, which interests me.   Let me put it very simply, there is a view that the Rothschilds are in control and sit at the head of the table and everyone else, many of them gentile, sit around the table awaiting orders.   The Rothschilds say, OK, we're going to have a War on Terror - we're going to crash planes into the WTC, blame it on Muslims, and the Mossad will be in charge.  Then Mossad calls Cheney and says, "We need from you the contact numbers of all the people we'll need to pull this off - DoD, DoS, Secret Security, NORAD, Joint Chiefs... Need to know basis."   Cheney and everyone else is on board, because the Jews are in charge and what they say goes.

OR, at the end of the day the Jewish banking elite take off their Jew hats and the Democrats and Republicans take off their Democrat and Republican hats and they all sit at the table together and laugh and smoke cigars.   And Baron Rothschild, probably seated at the head of the table says, I think we should have a War on Terror - what do you all think?   And 9/11 is thought up and everyone is on board because they are all on the same train and it serves the larger goals of the elite.  

And every year they all get together at the Bilderberg summit to pick the next US president or talk about how to get rid of Ron Paul and every summer they all get together at Bohemian Grove to blow off steam and screw medically screened prostitutes and watch a mock human sacrifice - except none of the Rothschilds or Warburgs are there, because they prefer to remain invisible.

And for the record, I don't buy into most of the Tribe of Dan stuff, many of those place-names may have been named for a "Dan" tribe, but there were several.   The reason I mentioned it (in that post to "Quest") is that the maker of 'Ring of Power' attributes Viking predominance to Tribe of Dan origins - my counter is that the Vikings were a conquering people just like the Jewish "parasites" that Eustace Mullins talks about and were ethnically related to them, but that the "Dan" term is more deeply rooted and doesn't necessarily point to the Tribe of Dan (almost definitely not in the case of British place names).

But hey, call me a shill. Go about your business.   Ignore these connections.   Blame it all on Jews only.  The elite will counter with "anti-semite!!!!"  and you'll be sidelined and marginalized.   - And nothing will change.

uroko,

I think you need more information.

Have you ever listened to Benjamin Freedman's speeches at the Willard Hotel?  It can show you "who" is and has been in control in World Affairs in the 20th and 21st centuries... mostly by using the 3 B's described above.  

You are too ready to look at the color of the "cloth" on the "Stage Puppets" in history, and not at the J-Tribe "Hands" moving the strings above... Today, America is the Golem with the Knesset's Rabbis conjuring it to do all kinds of murderous crimes... so don't leave out the core truths that you hear below from recordings 1-14.  Listen to all of them and then come back here and re-examine the arguments once again... --The CSR  

http://iamthewitness.com/archive.php?di ... el.1961%2F (http://iamthewitness.com/archive.php?dir=audio%2FBenjamin.H.Freedman%2FWillard.Hotel.1961%2F)


Another good read as well -- remember they have already cried "anti-semite" to the discovery of their plans for the 20th century:

QuoteWhen the Protocols appeared in English the minor point, who was the author of this particular document, was given a false semblance of major importance by the enraged Jewish attack on the document itself. The asseveration of Jewish leadership of the revolutionary conspiracy was not new at all; the reader has seen that Disraeli, Bakunin and many others earlier affirmed it. In this case the allegation about a specific meeting of Jewish leaders of the conspiracy was unsupported and could have been ignored (in 1913 a somewhat similar publication accused the Jesuits of instigating a world-conspiracy resembling that depicted alike in the Protocols and in Weishaupt's papers; the Jesuits quietly remarked that this was false and the matter was forgotten).

The response of official Jewry in 1920 and afterwards was different. It was aimed, with fury, at the entire substance of the Protocols; it did not stop at denying a Jewish plot, but denied that there was any plot, which was demonstrably untrue. The existence of the conspiracy had been recognized and affirmed by a long chain of high authorities, from Edmund Burke, George Washington and Alexander Hamilton to Disraeli, Bakunin and the many others mentioned in an earlier chapter. Moreover, when the Protocols appeared in English conclusive proof had been given by the event in Russia. Thus the nature of the Jewish attack could only strengthen public doubts; it protested much too much.

This attack was the repetition of the one which silenced those earlier leaders of the public demand for investigation and remedy, Robison, Barruel and Morse, but on this occasion it was a Jewish attack. Those three men made no imputation of Jewish leadership, and they were defamed solely because they drew public attention to the continuing nature of the conspiracy and to the fact that the French revolution was clearly but its first "eruption". The attack on the Protocols in the 1920's proved above all else the truth of their contention; it showed that the standing organization for suppressing public discussion of the conspiracy had been perfected in the intervening 120 years. Probably so much money and energy were never before in history expended on the effort to suppress a single document.

http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=670 (http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=670)

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"uroko,

I think you need more information.

Have you ever listened to Benjamin Freedman's speeches at the Willard Hotel?

Yes.

Did you know that Anglo-Saxon is a misnomer?  That it really should be Anglo-Saxon-Jute?

Quote from: "uroko"

Quote from: "/tab".
...Money is not the issue, the control of it is. Please see this video interview in its entirety. /tab

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I agree.  My favorite economist is Ellen Brown -

:up:  :up:
Me too. She's way ahead of the curve on this issue.

Quote from: "uroko"I'm not familiar with that. Got a link?

http://iamthewitness.com/ (http://iamthewitness.com/)
That site is run by Darryl Bradford Smith, whom we call DBS. It is an awesome site. On the near left you have audios that are made every week or so. DBS talks to Ognir, an Irish pagan who runs this site, and Mohamed Rafiq, MR, who is an economist. They give expert commentaries on the current global economic system. DBS also interviews experts like Ellen Brown.
 On the right hand side, DBS posts current news.
In the middle you can find links to audios and books that give a background to criminal zionism. You sound like a history buff so I think you will enjoy this resource.  A lot of people suggest that newcomers start with Benjamin Freedman, who was a successful Jewish businessman who owned a soap company.  He became a Christian and, much like Brother Kapner, decided to tell the truth about criminal zionists.  He was a witness to the zionist influence on the Versailles Treaty, and he covers a lot of ground in his hour-long talk. (There are actually two speeches, one from 1961 and one from 1974, but only the 1961 audio is available. I have a Mac and I copy text into my text edit function and then use the "Speech" function in "Edit". I can get a lot more done that way by listening to books while doing my workout or playing piano. ;) )
Another great audio source on that site is the collection of speeches by Father Coughlin. He was a very successful radio personality who told the truth about what was going on in Europe in the years leading up to WWII.  He and Charles Lindbergh bear witness to the fact that the US was dragged into WWII to protect criminal Jewish Bankers and Jewish sponsored communism in the Soviet Union.  
That site is a goldmine. DBS encourages people to download that site onto their own hard-drive. He runs the whole thing on his own dime and doesn't charge for anything. He occasionally will ask for people to donate on the show, but he doesn't have commercials and he's not making any money.  He doesn't always get it right, but he's right more often than not. DBS and MR were talking about the economic crisis long before the MSM.

Definitely check IAmTheWitness.  I think IATW will help you to get a clearer view of the "Big Picture", and this is what your video is attempting to show. I think you've got skills, and that if you were armed with the real story you could make something GREAT.

Quote from: "uroko"Would you not concede that the fuel tank, spark plugs, transmission and steering are the non-Jewish elite?

Pointing out the involvement of Jews/zionists is not merely an intellectual exercise. The goals of the criminal zionists are the promotion of the welfare of their crime gang: Power/money/satisfaction/All your base are belong to us. The occasional non-Jew is a mid-level manager or a distraction.  Or a crypto-Jew. Look at John Kerry. Good old Irish John Kerry. From country Kerry? Corned Beef and Cabbage? Guinness? WRONG.

QuoteKerry's Grandfather was Fritz Kohn, a Jew who was born in Moravia  and then moved to Vienna. He and his brother Otto supposedly converted to Roman Catholicism and decided to shed the Jewish-sounding name of Kohn. He chose a new name by dropping a pencil on a map, which landed on Ireland's County Kerry.

Websites will tell this story and never once question WHY it is necessary to change your name when you convert to Catholicism. The Church doesn't ask you to do that. The only reason to change your name to "Kerry" is to fool people into thinking that you are Irish.

I guess he also changed his name from Fritz to Fred.  Now this supposed convert to Catholicism just happened to marry Ida Loewe, a Jewish musician from Budapest.

QuoteIda was a descendant of Sinai Loew, a brother of Rabbi Judah Loew, the famous Kabbalist, philosopher and Talmudist known as the "Maharal of Prague".  

In 1905, Kerry, from county Kohn, along with his wife and son Erich immigrated to America. After entering through Ellis Island, the family first lived in Chicago and then settled in Boston. Fred and Ida had two more children in America, Mildred (1910) and Richard (1915).

In 1921, Fred Kerry, at age 48, entered a Boston hotel and shot himself in the head. Some say the suicide was due to financial stress or depression.

Some say it was a Concord Hotel and that he was trying to light a cigarette in his mouth.

QuoteRichard Kerry (Father)

Richard was six years old when his father committed suicide. It has been said that he dealt with the tragedy by ignoring it. Richard attended Phillips Academy, Yale University and Harvard Law School. After serving in the U.S. Army Air Corps, Kerry worked in the U.S. Department of State and later the Foreign Service.

He married Rosemary Forbes, the beneficiary of the Forbes family trusts. The Forbes family amassed a huge fortune in China trade.

Richard and Rosemary had four children: Margery (1941), John (1943), Diana (1947) and Cameron (1950).

Quote from: "uroko"These are the people who gather in the Bohemian Grove every summer to watch a mock sacrifice at the alter of Moloch. WTF is that about?

Yeah, I used to think the same thing. But now I believe there is too much made of that. There is a guy on this site named "Scorpio" who worked at the Grove party and says the whole thing is just a bunch of business guys who are camping. Alex Jones made it look super secret when it is not, and he made a video about "breaking in" to the Grove, when anyone can get a temporary job working at the Grove.  

Quote from: "uroko"But wasn't the arrest of the dancing Israelis suspicious? They danced around in several locations, they identified themselves to police immediately as Israeli. Looked to me like "open complicity"..., like they were trying to get arrested. Not that Mossad wasn't involved, of course they were. But was it an Israeli operation? What about the Joint Chiefs? What about the Secret Service, the CIA, NORAD? They were involved too.

I think it would be advisable not to "overthink" this. The mossad was caught videotaping the attacks from across the river in New Jersey.  Here's a quote from the dispatch on that day:

QuoteDispatcher: Jersey City police.
Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building.
Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.
Dispatcher: He has what?
Caller: He's dressed like an Arab.

I don't think the Urban Moving Systems mossad guys were trying to get arrested, but the Arab style dress is obviously not meant to implicate israel.
As for the involvement of the CIA and Secret Service, etc..., it is important to keep in mind that israel controls our government at all levels.  A good example of this is the Ray McGovern interview where he talks about the Jewish Lobby getting rid of Charles Freedman as chair of the National Intelligence Council. That is two steps down from a cabinet appointment, and McGovern says he has never seen that kind of Total Control being exercised in Washington.

At the time of 9/11: Paul Wolfowitz was Deputy Defense Secretary; Michael Chertoff was Assistant Attorney General; Douglas Feith was Undersecretary of Defense for Policy (later he supervised the Pentagon Policy Counter-terrorism Evaluation Group - a.k.a Office of Special Plans that made the case for the Iraq war); Dov Zakheim was Pentagon comptroller; Marc Grossman was Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, the Department's third-ranking official; Elliot Abrams was on the National Security Council; Jerome Hauer was managing director of Kroll and senior adviser to US Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) for National Security and Emergency Management.     That's just an example the Jews in key positions on 9/11 who could have controlled the show. There are probably many more that I am not mentioning, or who are operations level and not readily uncovered by a search engine.  

In addition to this is the PTECH software which gave a backdoor into all the key government software on 9/11.  That controlled what the FAA was seeing on their screens and what the security agencies were hearing. Not to mention the israeli controlled Amdocs and Comverse Infosys that had total power over phone connections. And ICTS, the israelli controlled airport security.

In short, there was plenty of Jewish zionists who could have run 9/11 and wiped away their fingerprints without involving any goyim.  

Quote from: "uroko"And what I'm saying is that the Vikings, Franks, Saxons, Huns and Khazars that displaced the Roman Empire were all originally Hebrew tribes, as were the Israelites.

Perhaps. This gets at that whole "crypto Jew" idea that I mentioned earlier.  
I don't spend too much time on this because it is too tenuous.  Also, the modern actions of criminal zionism can be seen to work against the ruling houses of Europe in many cases. One of the aims of the First World War seems to have been the elimination of the ruling Christian families of Europe.  

Quote from: "uroko"Templar/Freemasonic-Jewish alliance that was behind the East India Companies that colonized the world in the first place.

The East India Company looks like a good place to start. They were pretty key to the zionist influence under the guise of British Imperialism.  The Sasson run Opium trade is another place to look.

The main point I am making here is that the criminal zionist cabal theory provides a logical framework that explains world history better than any other. People on this site are used to shills like Alex Jones who consistently Veer Away from this theory. Why do they do this? I don't know. Maybe they believe that exposing the Jewish cabal will lead to another holohoax. Maybe their Jewish advertisers and MSM bosses keep them fat and happy. Maybe they are paid operatives. Who can say?

But I think you can see why many on TIU are resistant to anyone who won't talk about this cabal. Avoid the subject of the Jewish cabal makes our antenna go up. It's not that we hate Jews, but the Jewish involvement is undeniable. Not talking about the cabal is avoiding the Truth, and then the TIU starts to think the person is a liar.  Again, Alex Jones is the perfect example of this.  

I'm speaking frankly to you because I don't think you are a shill or a liar. I'm hoping you will look into IATW and discover the Truth.  I'm also hoping to see you produce something great.

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"I'm speaking frankly to you because I don't think you are a shill or a liar. I'm hoping you will look into IATW and discover the Truth.  I'm also hoping to see you produce something great.

Thanks, I really appreciate it ...  but I'm inclined to urge YOU to produce something "great".   Everyone has their own valid POV.  

I AM trying to discover the "truth".   But the best any of us can hope for is a roughly close "version".

I don't read or trust info posted at iatw anymore, because of a vicious and baseless attack on someone I know by Eric Hufschmid at a time when he and DBS were aliied (and there is some indication that DBS was involved) - and because some things posted there I have found to be inaccurate.

QuoteAt the time of 9/11: Paul Wolfowitz was Deputy Defense Secretary; Michael Chertoff was Assistant Attorney General; Douglas Feith was Undersecretary of Defense for Policy (later he supervised the Pentagon Policy Counter-terrorism Evaluation Group - a.k.a Office of Special Plans that made the case for the Iraq war); Dov Zakheim was Pentagon comptroller; Marc Grossman was Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, the Department's third-ranking official; Elliot Abrams was on the National Security Council; Jerome Hauer was managing director of Kroll and senior adviser to US Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) for National Security and Emergency Management. That's just an example the Jews in key positions on 9/11 who could have controlled the show. There are probably many more that I am not mentioning, or who are operations level and not readily uncovered by a search engine.

Of course.  Karen Kwiatkowski describing the Israeli generals sneaking in to see Doug Feith without signing in.    Does this not make my point?   Who let them in?  How is it that Bush appointed all those Neocons in the first place???   What are Cheney and Rumsfeld doing as signatories on those PNAC documents?   Did you know that both the families of Cheney and Rumsfeld are Norman and were there at the battle of Hastings in 1066, winning a seat at the table to run the world for their descendants?  Is that irrelevant?    What other connection is there - except to say that Cheney and Rumsfeld are "crypto-Jews" without evidence?    

Christopher Marlowe, I do appreciate your conciliatory tone, I really do, and I will also say that I HAVE been influenced by the many posts here and have watched and read many things I wouldn't have known about and am constantly re-assessing my opinions  - and, I am probably more inclined to slant more toward the collective POV of this site than I was before.  

But every time people here try and "win me over", I am left with the impression that what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears.    You don't have to win me over - I am already "won over".   I'm just trying to uncover the connections between this Jewish elite and the non-Jewish elite that makes all of this malfeasance possible.

[Frustrated]

Do you mean "malfeasance" like this? Kissinger was never on side of the Palestinians and was an "Israeli Mole" in the US government like Scoop Jackson.

-------

QuoteSeptember 21, 1974 and After: Rumsfeld, Cheney Take Power in White House


Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld speaking to reporters, 1975.Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld speaking to reporters, 1975. [Source: Gaylinkcontent (.com)]President Ford asks Donald Rumsfeld to replace the outgoing Alexander Haig at the White House (see September 16-Late September, 1974). Rumsfeld has long been Haig's choice to replace him (see August 14, 1974). Ford does not want to give Rumsfeld the official title of "chief of staff," and instead wants Rumsfeld as "staff coordinator." The difference is academic. Ford wants the aggressive, bureaucratically savvy Rumsfeld to help him regain control over a White House that is, in the words of author Barry Werth, "riven with disunity, disorganization, and bad blood." Rumsfeld agrees, and names former Wyoming Congressman Dick Cheney as his deputy (who makes himself valuable by initially doing the lowest forms of bureaucratic scutwork). Rumsfeld and Cheney will eventually wield almost Nixonian power in Ford's White House, successfully blocking the "in-house liberal," Vice President Rockefeller, from exerting any real influence, and hobbling Henry Kissinger's almost-limitless influence.
Blocking of Rockefeller and Kissinger for Ideological and Political Reasons - Rumsfeld begins his in-house assault in classic fashion: trying to cause tension between Kissinger and White House officials by snitching on Kissinger to any White House official who will listen. Kissinger eventually tells Ford: "Don't listen to [Rumsfeld], Mr. President. He's running for president in 1980." Rumsfeld and Cheney do their best to open the White House to hardline defense hawks and the even more hardline neoconservatives led by Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson (D-WA) and Jackson's aide, Richard Perle. (Though Rumsfeld and Cheney are not considered neoconservatives in a strict sense, their aims are almost identical—see June 4-5, 1974). Kissinger's efforts to win a negotiated peace between Israel and Palestine in the Middle East are held in contempt by Rumsfeld, Cheney, and the neoconservatives; using Ford's press secretary Ron Nessen as a conduit, Rumsfeld and Cheney leak information about the negotiations to the press, helping to cripple the entire peace process. Rumsfeld and Cheney have larger personal plans as well: they want to secure the White House for Rumsfeld, perhaps as early as 1976, but certainly by 1980. One of their methods of winning support is to undercut Kissinger as much as possible; they believe they can win support among the GOP's right wing by thwarting Kissinger's "realpolitik" foreign policy stratagems.
Rumsfeld as 'Wizard of Oz' - According to the chief of Ford's Economic Policy Board, William Seidman, Rumsfeld's bureaucratic machinations remind him of the Wizard of Oz: "He thought he was invisible behind the curtain as he worked the levers, but in reality everyone could see what he was doing." Rumsfeld and Cheney will make their most open grasp for power in orchestrating the "Halloween Massacre" (see November 4, 1975 and After). [Werth, 2006, pp. 336-337; Unger, 2007, pp. 49-52]

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline. ... rgate_tmln (http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?nixon_and_watergate_tmln_other=nixon_and_watergate_tmln_rumsfeld__cheney__and_ford_neocons&timeline=nixon_and_watergate_tmln)

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"[
...I think it would be advisable not to "overthink" this. The mossad was caught videotaping the attacks from across the river in New Jersey....

I don't overthink this. I really recommend watching "Open Complicity".  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31jTJjwgOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31jTJjwgOg)

Joshua Lederberg was one of the appointees of the team sent to NY to silence the firefighters - and a Nobel Prize winner, and the man in charge of covering up Gulf War Syndrome, and the guy who signed the invoices of sales of biological agents to Saddam Hussein in the 80's which were the foundation of Saddam's bio-warfare program, and a leading member of the CFR.  And a Jew, and a onetime president of Rockefeller U.   I've done a fair amount of research - maybe not as much as some, and maybe I haven't spent enough time reading what Daryl Bradford Smith publishes ... but I can see the bread and I can see the butter.    

I see a ruling elite which has been intermarrying and holding hands for a thousand years.  The "Jews did it" meme is tolerated, no, promoted, because it provokes anti-Jewish sentiment which can be easily countered in a racial context.  

If it was just a "Jewish" conspiracy, I could agree - but being that in total it isn't, and believing that such a stance opens would-be-patriots to attacks of anti-Semitism, I believe that holding to that view is counter-productive - not from a purely strategic standpoint, but because of that plus the fact that I don't think it's accurate.  I believe that the "Hebrew-Elite" love that people who are a potential threat to their power think so - because it is easily countered.

Co-intel.

Goldman-Sachs wasn't an important part of the FED when it was set up - just a minor player - but by innovative banking practices they were able to become very powerful - and rich - and now they are under intense scrutiny and the target of investigation.   How much you wanna bet they get thrown under the bus like that other unwanted child, the leftover of the Kuhn & Loeb - Lehman - Blackstone Group progression of mergers, Lehman Bros,?

We'll know in a year.

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"Do you mean "malfeasance" like this? Kissinger was never on side of the Palestinians and was an "Israeli Mole" in the US government like Scoop Jackson.

-------

QuoteSeptember 21, 1974 and After: Rumsfeld, Cheney Take Power in White House


Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld speaking to reporters, 1975.Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld speaking to reporters, 1975. [Source: Gaylinkcontent (.com)]President Ford asks Donald Rumsfeld to replace the outgoing Alexander Haig at the White House (see September 16-Late September, 1974). Rumsfeld has long been Haig's choice to replace him (see August 14, 1974). Ford does not want to give Rumsfeld the official title of "chief of staff," and instead wants Rumsfeld as "staff coordinator." The difference is academic. Ford wants the aggressive, bureaucratically savvy Rumsfeld to help him regain control over a White House that is, in the words of author Barry Werth, "riven with disunity, disorganization, and bad blood." Rumsfeld agrees, and names former Wyoming Congressman Dick Cheney as his deputy (who makes himself valuable by initially doing the lowest forms of bureaucratic scutwork). Rumsfeld and Cheney will eventually wield almost Nixonian power in Ford's White House, successfully blocking the "in-house liberal," Vice President Rockefeller, from exerting any real influence, and hobbling Henry Kissinger's almost-limitless influence.
Blocking of Rockefeller and Kissinger for Ideological and Political Reasons - Rumsfeld begins his in-house assault in classic fashion: trying to cause tension between Kissinger and White House officials by snitching on Kissinger to any White House official who will listen. Kissinger eventually tells Ford: "Don't listen to [Rumsfeld], Mr. President. He's running for president in 1980." Rumsfeld and Cheney do their best to open the White House to hardline defense hawks and the even more hardline neoconservatives led by Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson (D-WA) and Jackson's aide, Richard Perle. (Though Rumsfeld and Cheney are not considered neoconservatives in a strict sense, their aims are almost identical—see June 4-5, 1974). Kissinger's efforts to win a negotiated peace between Israel and Palestine in the Middle East are held in contempt by Rumsfeld, Cheney, and the neoconservatives; using Ford's press secretary Ron Nessen as a conduit, Rumsfeld and Cheney leak information about the negotiations to the press, helping to cripple the entire peace process. Rumsfeld and Cheney have larger personal plans as well: they want to secure the White House for Rumsfeld, perhaps as early as 1976, but certainly by 1980. One of their methods of winning support is to undercut Kissinger as much as possible; they believe they can win support among the GOP's right wing by thwarting Kissinger's "realpolitik" foreign policy stratagems.
Rumsfeld as 'Wizard of Oz' - According to the chief of Ford's Economic Policy Board, William Seidman, Rumsfeld's bureaucratic machinations remind him of the Wizard of Oz: "He thought he was invisible behind the curtain as he worked the levers, but in reality everyone could see what he was doing." Rumsfeld and Cheney will make their most open grasp for power in orchestrating the "Halloween Massacre" (see November 4, 1975 and After). [Werth, 2006, pp. 336-337; Unger, 2007, pp. 49-52]

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline. ... rgate_tmln (http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?nixon_and_watergate_tmln_other=nixon_and_watergate_tmln_rumsfeld__cheney__and_ford_neocons&timeline=nixon_and_watergate_tmln)

What's your point?  

That "Scoop Jackson" wasn't the mascot of the neo-cons reinvented in England, which they were?   Or that the Kissinger/Rockefeller nexus wasn't the enemy of the Neocon nexus from day one?   Or that Brzezinski wasm't even more the arch-nemesis of the neo-cons?  That the elite don't fight amongst themselves and from time to time don't show up on the Senate floor to try and pull the rug out from what the other factions are trying to do?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... cleId=4921 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20070225&articleId=4921)

You should look at all the business connections between Kissinger & Associates and other companies connected to the Defense Department.  Very revealing.   Both in support of YOUR POV and MY POV.  (Which aren't so different.)

Here's a question for you uroko....

Who in the US government currently and in the past have been Israeli Agents?

Your keen eye for names and dates could name a few of them I'm sure.

Richard Perle perhaps? Or a member of the 9th century Snake tribe from the Caucasus mountains...  ;)

Remember who runs the (Israeli Funding) Fed (via intergenerational ripoffs),  and how it is used to control agents of influence:

Quote4. 2. 1976 presidential campaign

Jackson raised his national profile by speaking out on Soviet-U.S. relations and Middle East policy regularly, and was considered a front-runner for the nomination when he announced the start of his campaign in February 1975. Jackson received substantial financial support from Jewish-Americans who admired his pro-Israel views, but Jackson's support of the Vietnam War resulted in hostility from the left wing of the Democratic Party.

Note that the Saudi-Arabs became the NeoCons best friends after the NeoCons-Jews shut down independent Energy research in the mid-1970s.  Who wags whom?  I see a thread of the Neanders pulling the strings -- mostly represented by Zio-Jews and their collective B.S. beliefs.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Henry_M._Jackson (http://wapedia.mobi/en/Henry_M._Jackson)


By the way, that reminds me.... do you think the Jews are descendants of the Neanderthals?  Apparently, the Neanderthal genetic legacy is found in precisely the areas of the Khazars-Georgia-Caspian mountain regions... perhaps the lineage is important for preserving the Neanderthal Blood line??  :wtf:


Also,
here's a good one from Matt Taibbi.  Do you smell the Jews at the Fed or is it some B.S. bloodline ala Tribe "Dan Brown"  running it?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw= (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=)[36899,157778]?RS_show_page=1

Quote from: "uroko"I don't overthink this. I really recommend watching "Open Complicity".

Interesting video. And it is ALSO a great example of overthinking it.
The video takes all the smoking gun evidence of complicity and then asks why they exposed themselves. That is an interesting angle, but the same could be said for anyone who gets caught: "Why did he leave his fingerprints at the scene?" "Why did he let the victim's blood get on him?"
This video takes evidence that israel is involved, and then wonders why the mossad would be so stupid as to implicate themselves.  

Quote"Who IDs suspects as Palestinian? --> People trying to frame (or at least blame Palestinians.)" "Who would possibly be more likely to attempt to frame Palestinians than Israeli intelligence?"

Quote"But the Caller's report led to the exposure and arrest of the Mossad agents."
"They acted to incriminate their own?"
"Was this an incredibly stupid mistake?"

Quote"It is never wise to assume that any intelligence agency is stupid."
"The whole episode was too complicated to be one big mistake."

Stupidity.
Hubris--> So sure of themselves. So much has been exposed and no justice done. There is some credence that they just didn't care.
What could be a good reason for Bush, Secret Service, Mossad, Larry Silverstein to incriminate themselves?
So the mob can trust you because you are implicated and they have the dirt on you.  

Quote9/11 was a unifying event: From then on the Bush agenda, the Neocon agenda, the Zionist agenda, and the Globalist agenda, which before 9/11 had been similar but distinct would become one and the same.  

QuoteAnd by incriminating themselves, some of them also dragged larger groups into the deception with them.  
The evidence that links israel intelligence to 9/11 connects israel to 9/11 by extention, thus assuring that all people loyal to israel not dare speak out.  

Next, Ostrovsky is telling how Bnai Brith is used by mossad to cover up israeli crimes.

Quoteisraeli complicity in9/11 gave the perpetrators the means to "label the 9/11 Truth Movemovent"

QuoteTo this day, activists are afraid to discuss this important element of the cover-up for fear of being "labeled" anti-semitic.

Classic Overthinking.
Because any trail leading to to israel would have been covered up this way, no matter what stupid mistakes led to israel being caught.  
israel got caught in the Lavon affair.
israel got caught attacking the Liberty.
Nothing was done. People who bring it up are labelled as anti-semites. Same difference.

The video goes on to ask:
What if they hadn't proclaimed their complicity?

QuoteIf these elements were removed the fact of controlled demolition that proves the official story is a lie, would still remain.

QuoteThe official story would still be a lie.  
But who would that lead us to?
If there wasn't this clear evidence where such an investigation might lead, maybe enough people would have demanded answers to get to the bottom of it.

QuoteThe evidence linking israel, the neocons, and the Republican party to the September 11th attacks assured that the cover-up would go as planned.

Not really.  The evidence linking israel and the neocons [notice the way these are listed as separate ideologies, when they are really the same.  The neocon agenda IS the israeli agenda.]  and the Rep Pty assured that the cover-up would go as planned?  NO. The evidence linking them to the 911 attacks are WHY WE KNOW THEY ARE LINKED TO THE 911 ATTACKS.  If there was no evidence, we wouldn't know about them causing it.  I looked at the attacks for YEARS before I finally caught on to israelli involvement.  I INITIALLY thought that anyone who blamed israel for 9/11 just hated Jews. That was because I was HYPNOTIZED, just like most people in the US. Just like most Jews. We are all TRAINED by the MSM to think that Jews never do anything wrong. That israel exists because the Jews need someplace to go when the Goyim start persecuting Jews for NO REASON, as they HAVE ALWAYS DONE OUT OF JEALOUSY. The Goyim are jealous of the Jews success. The Jews are successful because they are smarter, more talented and because God loves them more than everyone else.  Jews are the Best.  --> That last little slogan is taken word for word from a poster that was hanging in the local Jewish community center.  

"Open Complicity" OVERTHINKS 9/11 because it tries to find a logical reason for israel getting caught. The reason why israel got caught is because 9/11 was a huge crime and they were bound to get caught.  As I noted before, israel's been caught twice before doing smaller, similar false flag crimes.

The reason why they got caught can be found in the old Robert Burns poem, "To a Mouse",

QuoteBut Mousie, thou are no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!

In Scottish that means "Those motherf*ckers are not so smart that they will never make a mistake."
They think they are the best, but a plow is going to come and uproot their homes. And then they're going to be "cowran, tim'rous beasties" with panic in their breasties.  No amount of "bickering brattle", no matter how they scurry and run, they are going to be caught.

Open Complicity tries to make it seem like there are all these different secret movements that came together on 9/11:

QuoteFrom then on the Bush agenda, the Neocon agenda, the Zionist agenda, and the Globalist agenda, which before 9/11 had been similar but distinct would become one and the same.

As noted the above, the neocons and zionists are the SAME THING. What is the Globalist agenda? Could that be the same as the International Banker agenda? Which is the same thing as the International Jewish agenda? Which is the same as the zionist agenda?
And what is the Bush agenda? Same. They never were different.  If you do what the zionist Jews want, then you will  get rewarded: Bribery.
If you go against them, you will be punished: Blackmail.  Bullet.  
Mystery solved.

Finally the video ends with f*ckwit Alex Jones, who does everything he can to turn people away from looking at israel's involvement in 9/11.  
Alex Jones is sad, fat clown.
Now that even his listeners are starting to get tired of how AJ avoids talking about israel doing 9/11, AJ is interviewing people who talk about it, but is trying to put the same spin on it as this Open Complicity video: israel was just one of the powers involved.  They are just part of the Freemason, Templar knight, German Death Cult, Jesuit conspiracy.  
Of course, no one caught any f*cking templar knights or Jesuits on 9/11. Of course German Death cults were involved.  Who do you think owns the media? The German Death Cults.  They are only using Jews as A FRONT for the German Death Cults.  In fact, Germany only appears to be harassed and blackmailed by israel, continually paying BILLIONS of dollars and military aid out for the Crimes of killing 60 TRILLION Jews in the Holocaust.  In reality, they are only APPEARING to pay out Billions.  In reality, the German Death Cults are actually loaning the money to themselves, using the israeli banks to avoid taxes.
 
Finally the Video shows a guy confronting  Hamilton of the 9/11 commission with the words in the 9/11 Report which state that that support for israel created the animus in Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
We know KSM had Nothing to do with 9/11. So do the video makers. So what is his relevance to anything?
The 9/11 commission report was written by Phillip Zellicow. A zionist Jew. You see if the israelis had not been so clever in getting caught on 9/11, the 9/11 commission report would have been written by a Templar Knight. It was necessary for the Jews to get caught in order to gain the power to cover up their crime.
Overthinking.  

Quote from: "uroko"I don't read or trust info posted at iatw anymore, because of a vicious and baseless attack on someone I know by Eric Hufschmid at a time when he and DBS were aliied (and there is some indication that DBS was involved) - and because some things posted there I have found to be inaccurate.

As you know, DBS and EH have parted ways. I don't want to spend a lot of time defending DBS here, but he has split from EH, and DBS has apologized for any errors that came about as a result of their work together.  That ought to account for something.  Also EH has posted numerous videos trying to defame DBS.
It should also be noted that DBS acknowledges that he occasionally posts info that is incorrect.  If the error is brought to his attention, he takes it down.  People on this site bring it to Ognir's attention and he notifies DBS and the correction is made.  For example, recently DBS jumped the gun and accused Salbucci of being a shill. It was in error, and DBS was a big enough man to apologize on the air to Salbucci, who was very gracious and did not hold it against DBS.  Done.  
Does DBS occasionally f*ck up? Sure.  Is he a little paranoid? Sure. Are a good portion of the people on TIU? Yes. Do they have cause to be paranoid? Yes. The world governments are being run by a Criminal gang of sociopaths and the media ignores it because THEY are controlled by the same gang.  Paranoid. You bet.  
But even though DBS occasionally gets it wrong, and even though he is paranoid, his site is still one of the best historical resources on the net. He's covering the story most are afraid to look at.  In depth.

Quote from: "uroko"Of course. Karen Kwiatkowski describing the Israeli generals sneaking in to see Doug Feith without signing in. Does this not make my point? Who let them in?

Jews. In the Pentagon. Feith. A zionist Jew.

Quote from: "uroko"How is it that Bush appointed all those Neocons in the first place??? What are Cheney and Rumsfeld doing as signatories on those PNAC documents?

Because the Bush admin, like the Clinton admin, and the Obama admin are controlled by Jews. Zionist Jews. That is why all the US leaders go to AIPAC to swear their allegiance to israel before they run for office.  
Of course, they also secretly swear their allegiance to the Templar Knights, but that is very secret. And also the Freemasons.  But video is not allowed of that. Ditto with the German Death Cults.  

Quote from: "uroko"Did you know that both the families of Cheney and Rumsfeld are Norman and were there at the battle of Hastings in 1066, winning a seat at the table to run the world for their descendants? Is that irrelevant?

Yes.

Quote from: "uroko"What other connection is there - except to say that Cheney and Rumsfeld are "crypto-Jews" without evidence?

Cheney's company Haliburton made a LOT of MONEY from the Iraq war through no-bid contracts. Cheney is worth billions
Rumsfeld has ties to Monsanto and to Gilead, which makes Tamiflu. Both of these companies have profited greatly from government decisions. Tamiflu got a fat contract during the swine flu scare. Monsanto is historically Jewish owned.  
What is the connection? Cheney and Rumsfeld are doing what the zionist Jews want and they are making gazzillions of dollars. Bribery. The first B.  

Quote from: "uroko"I am probably more inclined to slant more toward the collective POV of this site than I was before.

But every time people here try and "win me over", I am left with the impression that what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears. You don't have to win me over -You don't have to win me over - I am already "won over". I'm just trying to uncover the connections between this Jewish elite and the non-Jewish elite that makes all of this malfeasance possible.

[Frustrated]

I'm sorry if I have made you feel frustrated. I wouldn't bother if I didn't think it was worth my time. If I thought I could win over AJ, I would. He has a lot of broadcasting experience and he would be useful if he didn't run away from the truth.
I'm glad to hear you say this because it shows that you are honest. That's key.
Uncovering

Quotethe connections between this Jewish elite and the non-Jewish elite that makes all of this malfeasance possible

may or may not be a waste of time. I don't think there is any secret order beyond criminal zionism. People who are not Jews, but do work for them are either getting money or are avoiding exposure as homosexuals or pederasts or monkey-urine-drinkers.  (It was just one time, during college.  I was drunk, and the monkey urine smelled so good.)

Quote from: "uroko"But hey, call me a shill. Go about your business. Ignore these connections. Blame it all on Jews only. The elite will counter with "anti-semite!!!!" and you'll be sidelined and marginalized. - And nothing will change.

Once again, I appreciate your candor.
I believe what you are saying here is the CRUX of the matter.  Ironically, the crux that we bear is fighting criminal zionism with the fear of being labeled anti-semite.  
Uroko, dude, once you've come to realize this you are almost home.
It might interest you to read MonkeySeeMonkeyDo's goodbye letter to TIU. He had written this great piece showing israel's involvement in 9/11. Then MSMD started worrying that he was getting filled with hate for Jews.  He didn't want to become an anti-semite so he was going to quit and do something else.  Sound familiar?
MSMD is not an anti-semite. He's just attracted to the Truth. For some strange reason the Truth is like a beautiful woman and he is drawn towards it.
Then when he says the Truth, people come down on him and call him an anti-semite.  And MSMD is not superman.  It hurt his feelings.  So he wanted to quit because that made him feel bad about himself.  But he thought about it for a little while and now he's back.

Another example.  I went to a mossad-did-911 rally at the israeli embassy a month or so ago.  This guy there was an ex GI, and he was holding up a sign about criminal zionism.  I said "hi" to the GI, and for the next 30 minutes, he told me over and over how much he loved the Jewish people, and how he is not an anti-semite.  Talk about guilt.  No one was accusing him but his own conscience.  You see, he knows israel did 9/11, but he has been hypnotized all his life to think that Jews are all good guys and the Goyim will occasionally holocaust 17 TRILLION of them for no reason.  So the GI is torn up with guilt about accusing the people who attacked this nation of attacking this nation.  Sound familiar?

I couldn't see the israeli involvement for years. Same thing.  Hypnotized.  Now I'm awake.  Admitting I had a problem was the first step.  

Quote from: "uroko"If it was just a "Jewish" conspiracy, I could agree - but being that in total it isn't, and believing that such a stance opens would-be-patriots to attacks of anti-Semitism, I believe that holding to that view is counter-productive - not from a purely strategic standpoint, but because of that plus the fact that I don't think it's accurate. I believe that the "Hebrew-Elite" love that people who are a potential threat to their power think so - because it is easily countered.

Co-intel.

They Hebrew Elite use the same anti-semitic argument for everything because it is a toschlagargument.  It is the killer argument that stops all debate.  
What do you mean I stole your pension fund? You're just an anti-semite.
Rabbis selling stolen human organs?  Why do you hate the Jews?
israel did 9/11? Why don't you just start putting 157 Trillion Jews into brick ovens, you Jew hater?

Quote"Open Complicity" OVERTHINKS 9/11 because it tries to find a logical reason for israel getting caught.

Funny there C.M., that was my same reaction! Is this an Israeli-Jew crime or a "failed Mossad escape plan"...   :D

Christopher,

 Great post!! You, my friend, have a gift. Love the Holyhoax numbers you came up with  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Good job.

Yes, Christopher, EXCELLENT post.

A small detail, you disagree with the POV forwarded by "Open Complicity" with regard to the "dancing Israelis". I'm not 100% on how much stock to place into that hypothesis, or its being applicable to the Dancing Israelies or Larry Silverstein sticking his foot in his mouth.   But the Dancing Israelis IS an anomoly - they were, according to someone who called the authorities reporting them, dressed in "Sheik" clothes. I won't harp on it, the whole thing smelled funny to me when I first looked into it.  You either think it was an Israeli operation and those guys were out there dancing around in "sheik" outfits to help affix the blame on Arab terrorists, or you think like me, that they were trying way too hard to get arrested, and there's something funny going on there.  

Thanx for taking the time to watch it BTW.    

As for familial connections of US leaders, I can only offer my opinions, which I have.   One can't get a sense of how incestuous and solidly connected to the ruling elite of England the movers and shakers of America over the past 200 years are without actually looking at the families one by one as they come up, and seeing how almost universally they all fit the same mould.  People aren't born into a vaccuum - they are born into a culture provided by their parents, attend certain schools, inherit certain wealth, and are presented with certain opportunities.  Take one example, the Roosevelt family - no family in American history is more revered, yet no more American family was as traitorous or allied with the Jewish banking elite.      

I have Michael Rivero's 'What Really Happened' site bookmarked, I check it probably everyday to get my news - I probably visit WRH more regularly than any other site.

I have two small problems with Rivero - but his dogged attention to crimes of Jewish Zionists and Israel is not one of them.   My first problem with Rivero is that he insists that AA flight 77 hit the Pentagon.   I am intimate with the 'Pilots for 9/11 Truth' site and I have read all of their research - there's no way flight 77 hit the Pentagon, and government released evidence says so unequivocally.  My second pet peeve is with things like this -    

He commented on a link to something about the attack on the Gaza flotilla:

QuoteIsrael has attacked and seized US-flagged ships in international waters. This is not only an attack on the United States this is an attack against NATO itself.

No more straddling the lines. Obama is either the President of the United States, or he is Israel's slave. He cannot be both.

In judging Obama's reaction to the Israeli attack on US-flagged ships in international waters, just ask yourself, what would Teddy Roosevelt have done?

America needs leaders who will put America first, second, and third.

.

It just bugs the h@ll out of me that people think Teddy Roosevelt was such a hero, a man for the people.  He single handedly took the first big step in the hijacking of America, and he was as solidly in the inner circle of the camp of the Money Trust as anyone.   The Roosevelts are Hebrew, very much so.  And Norman, and fought at Hastings.  Anytime you see Ros, Roos, Roth, Rus, Rose, etc., that meant Rose-line, Hebrew, red-haired.   (Same with the name Russell.)

So, you folks aren't going to convince me that the non-Jewish Hebrew elite in America aren't relevant or aren't connected to the Jewish elite.  I've done too much homework on it and won't let go of that view very easily.   Whether it's relevant or not is a different question.    I think it is, to a point, but really I look into this stuff simply because it interests me and it's an angle no one else is focused on.  

But with the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla, even I am reluctant to discuss this esoteric stuff.  Israel has showed the world in no uncertain terms the depths of it's dark nature.   So far America is "waiting for the facts".   LoL ... America is between a rock and a hard place and is hoping this will blow over.

If I said the time was long overdue for International war-crimes trials for Israel it probably wouldn't be received  here so well, some of you would think I was pandering.   So I'm going to just quit worrying about what you people think of me - and say what I think.    

Seen this?    Norman Finkelstein:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8)

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"Here's a question for you uroko....

Who in the US government currently and in the past have been Israeli Agents?

Your keen eye for names and dates could name a few of them I'm sure.

Richard Perle perhaps? Or a member of the 9th century Snake tribe from the Caucasus mountains...  ;)
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw= (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=)[36899,157778]?RS_show_page=1

Interesting you mention Richard Perle.  

Strong ties to Kissinger & Associates and to Conrad Black.

His company name is/was (?) Trireme.   A type of Greek warship.

He's a mid-level clown.  Without his connections to Kissinger, Conrad Black and his former position at the Defense Policy Board he would be an average Joe.  (Which is to say he isn't?)  

The "Black Prince".

But I digress - there have have been lots of Israeli agents and dual-citizens in Government.   The neo-con rise to power started really under Reagan.   After Clinton's win they were kicked out of Washington and started up the PNAC and wrote documents outlining their stategy.  With Bush they were brought back in in spades.   With Obama we have a return to the Rockefeller crowd.  

But wait, Richard Perle is a close ally and business associate of Kissinger!?  And Kissinger is a close ally of Rockefeller!?  And Brzezinski and the Rockefeller nexus are arch enemies of the neocons?  Why won't they divide neatly into camps that we can keep track of, why are they alternately enemies and co-conspirators?

Hahah.    Because it's complicated, and we don't see all of what's going on.  

IMHO.

Sheesh - Michael Rivero is Still harping on how great Teddy Roosevelt was.  

http://whatreallyhappened.com/ (http://whatreallyhappened.com/)

Quote from: "uroko"A small detail, you disagree with the POV forwarded by "Open Complicity" with regard to the "dancing Israelis". I'm not 100% on how much stock to place into that hypothesis, or its being applicable to the Dancing Israelies or Larry Silverstein sticking his foot in his mouth.   But the Dancing Israelis IS an anomoly - they were, according to someone who called the authorities reporting them, dressed in "Sheik" clothes. I won't harp on it, the whole thing smelled funny to me when I first looked into it.  You either think it was an Israeli operation and those guys were out there dancing around in "sheik" outfits to help affix the blame on Arab terrorists, or you think like me, that they were trying way too hard to get arrested, and there's something funny going on there.

We don't know EXACTLY what the dancing israelis were planning to do, but was it an anomaly?

Not to split hairs, but this is what Websters says: "deviation from the common rule :  irregularity" and "something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified".  It has been my experience that israelis are often caught at spying, killing, and terrorizing. The dancing israelis were caught doing mischief: either spying or committing acts of terrorism, so that is hardly unusual.  The many acts that implicate israel in the 9/11 attacks would make another such act part of the norm and not an irregularity.  

As you note, they might have been video taping themselves in Arab garb and celebrating in front of the burning towers.  They might have intended to send the video to Rita Katz at SITE as proof of Arabs doing 9/11.  I don't think they were trying to get caught. They just got caught.  I don't think they planned to have bomb sniffing dogs react to their van.  The fact that there was another van with explosives caught near the GW bridge on 9/11 shows that the MSM was able to cover up the facts implicating israel. If the other van had Arabs in it, we never would have heard the end of that.  But the assistant Attorney General that day was zionist Jew Chertoff, and the israelis went wee, wee, wee, all the way home.  

I don't know what shows that they were "trying too hard to get arrested", besides the fact that they got arrested. Anyone who does something stupid and gets arrested could be said to be trying hard to get arrested.  

But I don't KNOW what they were doing. I can only take an educated guess.  

Quote from: "uroko"Thanx for taking the time to watch it BTW.

You're welcome.  I also watched that NF interview on RT. He's right about israel being a lunatic state with hundreds of nuclear weapons.
NF is a very good debater, and I enjoyed watching him humiliate Dershwitz.  I fail to understand how NF and Chomsky cannot see that israel did 9/11.  Listening to Chomsky talk on 9/11 makes me think he is perhaps a shill. He is in total denial. 9/11 is not that important? Maybe Chomsky is getting senile.

NF's book on the holohoax industry made a lot of enemies in israel and has been very powerful ammunition for the Truth. That makes me think NF is not a shill.  Still, I wonder why he cannot see the 9/11 connection, or the obvious fact that the Germans did not have any homicidal gas chambers. Whatever.  

Quote from: "uroko"One can't get a sense of how incestuous and solidly connected to the ruling elite of England the movers and shakers of America over the past 200 years are without actually looking at the families one by one as they come up, and seeing how almost universally they all fit the same mould.  People aren't born into a vaccuum - they are born into a culture provided by their parents, attend certain schools, inherit certain wealth, and are presented with certain opportunities.  Take one example, the Roosevelt family - no family in American history is more revered, yet no more American family was as traitorous or allied with the Jewish banking elite.

Quote from: "uroko"It just bugs the h@ll out of me that people think Teddy Roosevelt was such a hero, a man for the people.  He single handedly took the first big step in the hijacking of America, and he was as solidly in the inner circle of the camp of the Money Trust as anyone.   The Roosevelts are Hebrew, very much so.

Yes. As DBS has noted on his site, Roosevelt comes from the Rosecampo family that emigrated from Spain to Holland after the Jews were kicked out of Spain.  FDR's mother's name Delano is also Jewish. FDR got the US into WWII to fight for the Jewish bankers, and there were many Jews and communists in FDR's administration.

Quote from: "uroko"So, you folks aren't going to convince me that the non-Jewish Hebrew elite in America aren't relevant or aren't connected to the Jewish elite.

I'm not trying to convince you of that. I agree with you on that. I would only object to someone who, Alex Joneslike, will talk a blue streak about NWO and Illuminati, and yet never mention israel and zionists and Jews.
Those other groups are hard to put your finger on and require a kind of belief or faith.  They are nebulous.  Whereas the links to israel and Jews are much easier to see. e.g. 9/11 and israel; Rabbis and illegal organ trades; Banking & Jews; Hollywood/MSM & Jews; Porn & Jews; etc...

Quote from: "uroko"I've done too much homework on it and won't let go of that view very easily.   Whether it's relevant or not is a different question.    I think it is, to a point, but really I look into this stuff simply because it interests me and it's an angle no one else is focused on.

I would just put it this way: is it more relevant that all of these people just happen to be Jewish and involved in secret criminal activity; or that some people can trace their roots back to the Norman invasion?

I can't tell you what to do. You're obviously a smart guy who knows how to do research. Only you can decide what you should do.  

Quote from: "uroko"I have Michael Rivero's 'What Really Happened' site bookmarked, I check it probably everyday to get my news - I probably visit WRH more regularly than any other site.

I have two small problems with Rivero - but his dogged attention to crimes of Jewish Zionists and Israel is not one of them.   My first problem with Rivero is that he insists that AA flight 77 hit the Pentagon.   I am intimate with the 'Pilots for 9/11 Truth' site and I have read all of their research - there's no way flight 77 hit the Pentagon, and government released evidence says so unequivocally.

Yes. I used to be right there with you. I used to get all my news from WRH. I felt the same way about flight 77 and wondered why Rivero stuck with that. Also Apollo is complete horsesh*t and Rivero won't look into that.  

Another thing that turned me off was that he was always coming down hard on Catholic priests, but seldom talked about Rabbis who were molesters and pastors-of-other-faiths molesters and  School teacher molesters.  That last group is statistically much more significant than the Priest group, but the media always gives it a pass.

And referring to priests as "pedophiles" instead of "pederasts" is another glaring error.  If one considers the statistical relationship of homosexuality to molestation/pederasty, that would be off the charts. But the MSM and Rivero insist on talking about the Catholic Church. Rivero's prejudice drove me away from the site and I rarely ever visit, except when the occasional search engine result sends me.  

Quote from: "uroko"But with the recent attack on the Gaza flotilla, even I am reluctant to discuss this esoteric stuff.  Israel has showed the world in no uncertain terms the depths of it's dark nature.   So far America is "waiting for the facts".   LoL ... America is between a rock and a hard place and is hoping this will blow over.

If I said the time was long overdue for International war-crimes trials for Israel it probably wouldn't be received  here so well, some of you would think I was pandering.   So I'm going to just quit worrying about what you people think of me - and say what I think.

I don't think you would be pandering if you said that. I can understand if you are all self-conscious because people on this site might seem to have been trying to tear you a new one. I can understand the conflict that you feel in confronting the criminal zionists. I think everyone has been there.

But you have been very rational and honest with me.  I don't need to try to control you. If you continue to be honest and brave, you will will find the truth and you will speak the truth.

Quote from: "Christopher Marlowe"I would just put it this way: is it more relevant that all of these people just happen to be Jewish and involved in secret criminal activity; or that some people can trace their roots back to the Norman invasion?

That's the best question to date.

Oh and by the way, Conrad Black is a typical flunky Shabbos Goy. The real Paper Mogul Robert Maxwell is the real ripoff-Mossad-Dealing Traitor Jew:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11017&p=41587&hilit=Robert+Maxwell#p41542 (http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11017&p=41587&hilit=Robert+Maxwell#p41542)

QuoteVoltaXebec:

You might take a look at this link-- covers Maxwell's support of Beria's plans:

It's the Nazis Stupid!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8872&p=33819

    http://books.google.com/books?id=trU7nY (http://books.google.com/books?id=trU7nY) ... #PPA197,M1

    The Secret War Against the Jews
    By John Loftus, Mark Aarons
    (These guys are apologist Zionists)
    -----------------
    See Chapter 9: Robert Maxwell's Czech Guns

    Maxwell was a Czech Crypto Jew named Lev Hoch that supplied Czech weapons to Israel in 1947. Certainly he knew the US Gangsters like Meyer Lansky.
    He was also a double agent for Israel as a British Spy. Same story as Angleton. An insider intelligence officer that used Israeli intelligence and Jew gangsters to do dirty work while controlling reports and outcomes. Robert Maxwell was always a traitor to Britian. He was an Israeli Firster as a refugee that stole Nazi scientific documents in post WWII Germany.


    Maxwell as Mossad
    viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1743&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p10328

I'm seeing a lot of uroko's work in this site by Brit-Am... except he is trying to tie more recent European and American history....to the Khazars.

http://www.britam.org/KhazarChapters.html (http://www.britam.org/KhazarChapters.html)

Apparently a Jew wrote a book connecting European "Picts" with Jews.

http://www.britam.org/khazars.html#Crimean (http://www.britam.org/khazars.html#Crimean)

Book:
(http://britam.org/pics/khazarsAd.jpg)

Picts tatooed themselves head to toe and this is prohibited in Leviticus:


http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... 19#comm/28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Lev&c=19#comm/28)

QuoteLev 19:26    ¶    Ye shall not eat [any thing] with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
Lev 19:28         Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD.
Lev 19:29    ¶    Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"Apparently a Jew wrote a book connecting European "Picts" with Jews.

A group of jews sit around thinking "Hmmm, let's see, what can we write about, get published, and fleece the non-jews with next?"

 :roll:

Quote from: "VoltaXebec"

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"Apparently a Jew wrote a book connecting European "Picts" with Jews.

A group of jews sit around thinking "Hmmm, let's see, what can we write about, get published, and fleece the non-jews with next?"

 :roll:

:lol:  Yeah VoltaXebec, next thing you know some Jew will write a book on how "Golf" was invented by "Jews" in Scotland and taught to the Picts after they created a "crude" club from temple candelabras after Hannakuh and hit an old dreidel into a hole.... or some nonsense like that --- and they'll put Tiger Woods on the cover with a yarmulke next to an ancient castle. A coffee table book for the "unknown chosen"... :lol:

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"

Quote from: "VoltaXebec"

Quote from: "CrackSmokeRepublican"Apparently a Jew wrote a book connecting European "Picts" with Jews.

A group of jews sit around thinking "Hmmm, let's see, what can we write about, get published, and fleece the non-jews with next?"

 :roll:

:lol:  Yeah VoltaXebec, next thing you know some Jew will write a book on how "Golf" was invented by "Jews" in Scotland and taught to the Picts after they created a "crude" club from temple candelabras after Hannakuh and hit an old dreidel into hole.... or some nonsense like that --- and they'll put Tiger Woods on the cover with a yarmulke next to ancient castle. A coffee table book for the "unknown chosen"... :lol:

 :lol:  That should be framed on your wall  :up:

.

Quoteuroko wrote:
I've done too much homework on it and won't let go of that view very easily. Whether it's relevant or not is a different question. I think it is, to a point, but really I look into this stuff simply because it interests me and it's an angle no one else is focused on.

QuoteChristopher Marlowe wrote:
I would just put it this way: is it more relevant that all of these people just happen to be Jewish and involved in secret criminal activity; or that some people can trace their roots back to the Norman invasion?

I think the world's history, and even this part of the conspiracy by the real Empire than you Uroko are investigating is important to been researched, it is very good you are doing that, other parts are also very important and there will be and are been researched by those who have the inclination to do that. We all are doing our part in one way or another. Don't let anyone tell you the opposite, but we know that it is difficult already research hidden acts of history, but maybe the Mason / Kabbalah traditional way of leaving Symbols In Plain Sight are helping you to discover the dots in this part of their actions and make the connections, but, once again, the Art is in been able differencing the smoke from the fire.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jS9Iv4g2muI/SSQsH5iK_UI/AAAAAAAABvk/C8KN-z6o-0E/s400/Smoke+Or+Fire+-+This+Sinking+Ship.jpg)

Some observations on my own here. The empire's brain, those Kabbalah Rabbis Baal worshiping MAGI Alchemists works usually behind the scenes, and by concept use to create PROXIES/GOLEM/PUPPETS in order to be able to string-control those marionettes from the [hidden] shadows, and preferably and as standard by several level of [distance]abstraction, this abstractions begin often by the name of HOUSE OF

I e when they secretly controlling the BIS (Bank for International Settlements) acting like the main "Money Lender Bank" to ALL the Central Banks of the world, all this in coordination with this other abstraction, The Federal Reserve System[US's own Central Bank] who "prints" the Money and later it goes to the World's Bank/IMF[UN] to the digital accounts in i e Switzerland and then to slavish several[all] countries of the world, by their[not own by the nations themselves] central banks who  tears apart the nations[real people]. So, you see, the chain of destruction is very long, hidden and notherless deadly.

The House of Sforza and the House of Medici are very interesting examples of this very same concept when this operating/Modus operandi (MO) from behind the scenes was taking place by then in Venedi. This above procedure is most of the rule in most cases when researching  any particular person/peoples/group/regions/states/empires acting like puppets of this same force through history.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/medici.html

Another key concept to really understand in all its depth in all this "historical deception" is the variable represent in this equation[Josephus] is the notion of Crypto/Anusim/Dönmeh/Marranos. This can be drawn as a parallel example to the role a Joker have in a card game. The Hidden hand of the Canaanite lineages are using the construction called "The Jews" even in another level of abstraction[hidden deception] in the form of Crypto-Judaism.

Example of a Crypto-Jew :  Vladimir Lenin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank_family

So, it was those 2 concepts direct from the kabbalah: Their proxy Golem and then the hiden mental control slaves jews/crypto jews, all part really of the same coin:

(http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/thumb/f/f7/Shabbatai1.jpg/180px-Shabbatai1.jpg)
Sabbatai Zevi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi

(http://s4.hubimg.com/u/1390439_f260.jpg)

See also

Crypto-Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism
Armenian Holocaust and Crypto Jews
bolshevik Revolution and Crypto Jews
Doctrine of mental reservation
History of the Jews in Latin America
History of the Jews in the Netherlands
Marrano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano
Anusim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anusim
Dönmeh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh
Jewish ethnic divisions
Jewish history
Limpieza de sangre


(http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200907/Josephus.gif)

Josephus problem visualization - against all odds, always on top

.
.

Something fishy here, towards the end of the video all I kept thinking was..."Teutonic Zionism"