Khazar Empire, Illuminati and The New World Order

[Rockclimber]

I haven't watched this yet...it was recommended to me.

http://vodpod.com/watch/1464309-khazar- ... rder-eng-1

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately the whole Khazar myth is hogwosh that was created at the time after ww1 to justify "creating a homeland for the jewish people" but It just doesn't hold any water. The intended purpose of creating a British controlled homeland for the Jews was to prevent any of the remnants of the ottoman empire becoming dominant in the region, and to that extent it has served it's purpose well.

Now interestingly the DNA results of various jews places their origin in Turkey, which places them around Jerusalem = Constantinople = Istanbul. Their real Homeland since they were the Byzantine [Roman] Tax collectors for the empires territories.

Jack Otto is means well, but he has bought hook line and sinker to the propaganda created for a different purpose.

The only evidence of such a claim is some late medieval arabic papers that claim that someone else 200 years before them claimed that this was true and a letter and response from a rabbi auspiciously discovered around the end of ww1.

One could say that it was almost as convenient as discovering the dead sea scrolls the year before Israel was recognized by the UN.    

As demonstrated in my shows.

If you have any other evidence that shows me to be wrong I will gladly reconsider my position.

So anyone claiming that Khazars are responsible is ignoring the evidence or ignorant of the evidence that dispels this myth.

That includes Jack Otto, Ben Freedman, Myron Fagan etc....

[Rockclimber]

Do you post at prison planet? There is a jonthesavage over there and I believe he said something similar and is a supporter of AJ.

Btw, I'm still working this one out. Most of the researchers who say that the khazarian theory doesn't hold water are typically zionists. So I don't trust the info, sorry.

Meanwhile I will make this a work in progress.

[Rockclimber]

Also, John, the debate is far from over. I don't think it is quite time to celebrate a victory or denounce Otto, Freedman, Fagan or others. To say that you can dispel this "myth" is a bit short of arrogance as there is plenty of research still being done.

Have you heard of this guy? From what I can tell he will freely debate anyone on this topic. I have not bought this book yet, but I plan to as soon as I have the funds.

The Jews of Khazaria
by Kevin Alan Brook

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 The Jews of Khazaria recounts the eventful history of the Turkic kingdom of Khazaria, which was located in eastern Europe and flourished as an independent state from about 650 to 1016. As a major world power, Khazaria enjoyed diplomatic and trade relations with many peoples and nations (including the Byzantines, Alans, Magyars, and Slavs) and changed the course of medieval history in many ways. Did you know that if not for the Khazars, much of eastern Europe would have been overrun by the Arabs and become Islamic? In the same way as Charles Martel and his Franks stopped the advance of Muslims at the Battle of Poitiers in the West, the Khazars blunted the northward advance of the Arabs that was surging across the Caucasus in the 8th century.
The Khazar people belonged to a grouping of Turks who wrote in a runic script that originated in Mongolia. The royalty of the Khazar kingdom was descended from the Ashina Turkic dynasty. In the ninth century, the Khazarian royalty and nobility as well as a significant portion of the Khazarian Turkic population embraced the Jewish religion. After their conversion, the Khazars were ruled by a succession of Jewish kings and began to adopt the hallmarks of Jewish civilization, including the Torah and Talmud, the Hebrew script, and the observance of Jewish holidays. A portion of the empire's population adopted Christianity and Islam.

This volume traces the development of the Khazars from their early beginnings as a tribe to the decline and fall of their kingdom. It demonstrates that Khazaria had manufacturing industries, trade routes, an organized judicial system, and a diverse population. It also examines the many migrations of the Khazar people into Hungary, Ukraine, and other areas of Europe and their subsequent assimilation, providing the most comprehensive treatment of this complex issue to date. The final chapter enumerates the Jewish communities of eastern Europe which sprung up after the fall of Khazaria and proposes that the Jews from the former Russian Empire are descended from a mixture of Khazar Jews, German Jews, Greek Jews, and Slavs.

The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, genetic, and archaeological discoveries. The weaponry, agriculture, horticulture, fishing, burial practices, architecture, and religions of the peoples of Khazaria are among the many findings revealed here.

The book also includes a map of the Khazar kingdom; a map of Khazarian-ruled Crimea; tables illustrating royal genealogies, the Turkic language family, and Turkic Khazarian personal names; a glossary of Khazarian words and other important terms which may be unfamiliar to readers; and an extensive bibliography listing hundreds of books and articles.


Students and other people interested in history who desire a thorough yet easy-to-read account of the Khazar kingdom will gain in their understanding of this important but previously obscure topic.
Ashkenazic Jews who wish to explore their distant ancestry in eastern Europe will greatly benefit from reading this book, particularly Chapter 10, which traces migrations across Europe in medieval times.
Hungarians, Ukrainians, Turks, Arabs, and Ossetians will find a wealth of information concerning the historical interactions between their peoples and the Khazars.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIRST EDITION:
English original published by Jason Aronson Publishers, Inc. of Northvale, New Jersey, U.S.A. (an imprint of Rowman and Littlefield Publishers since December 2003)
1st printing: April 1999, cloth/hardcover, 352 pages, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0, 1500 copies
2nd printing: October 1999, cloth/hardcover, 352 pages, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0, 1500 copies
3rd printing: September 2002, paperback/softcover, 354 pages, ISBN 0-7657-6212-9, 500 copies
4th printing: April 2004, paperback/softcover, 354 pages, ISBN 0-7657-6212-9, 525 copies
5th printing: beginning circa June 2004, hardcover, 354 pages, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0, 112 copies by print-on-demand 2004-2006
6th printing: beginning early 2005, paperback/softcover, 354 pages, ISBN 0-7657-6212-9, 773 copies by print-on-demand 2005-2006

Turkish edition Bir Türk ?mparatorlu?u: Hazar Yahudileri, translated by ?smail Tulçali, published by Nokta Kitap (Nokta Yay?nlar?) of Istanbul, Turkey
1st printing: February 2005, softcover, 474 pages, ISBN 975-8823-73-6, 2000 copies

SECOND EDITION:

English original published by Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, Inc. of Lanham, Maryland, U.S.A.
1st printing: beginning September 2006, hardcover, 317 pages, ISBN 0-7425-4981-X, 978-0-7425-4981-4, print-on-demand 2006-present


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This second, revised edition... integrates important new data culled from ongoing archaeological digs in southern Russia and the Crimea, genetic results of DNA processing, examination of formerly unknown or ignored coin hordes, and the continuing research of scholars around the world. It succeeds in elucidating controversial issues, while contextualizing the Khazar polity within the competitive 9th-11th-century world of Byzantium, the Arab Caliphate, and two regional upstarts: the Dnepr-based aggregate of Nordic, Slavic, and Turkic peoples known as Rus', and the Turkic-Islamic kaganate of Bulgar flourishing in the middle and upper Volga territory. As a full exploration in English of the history and culture of the Khazars, this volume is without equal..." - Edward J. Lazzerini, Visiting Professor of Central Eurasian History, Indiana University Bloomington

"King Joseph's reply appears along with a host of other fascinating documents in Kevin Alan Brooks' scholarly account. ...Brooks [is] ever sober and even-handed in his approach..." - Mark Glanville, in Jewish Quarterly No. 208 (Winter 2007 issue)

"...fans of Michael Chabon's Gentlemen of the Road... might also enjoy... Kevin Alan Brook's The Jews of Khazaria, which lends some context to Chabon's history." - sidebar in Neal Wyatt's article "Take the RA Talk Online: In person and via web tools, readers' advisory is all about how well we talk to patrons" in Library Journal (February 15, 2008 issue)

"Kevin Alan Brook, thirty years on, strives, with considerable success, to satisfy the appetite for information about the Khazars which Koestler generated. The Jews of Khazaria is, in essence, a compendium of information gathered from every available source... He has provided a useful reference work for all those intrigued by the most striking single case of successful Jewish proselytism, as well as for those interested in the affairs of one of the four great powers of western Eurasia in the early middle ages." - James Howard-Johnston, University Lecturer in Byzantine Studies, Corpus Christi College, Oxford, in Shofar: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Jewish Studies 27:2 (Winter 2009 issue)

Below are some reviews of the 1st edition:

"It makes skillful use of the vast literature, in many different languages, related to the Khazars. It will be a very helpful guide for the general reader who wishes to discover the truth about this legendary people." - John D. Klier, Professor of Modern Jewish History, University College, London

"Kevin Alan Brook has put together an absorbing account of their history based on this wide array of sources, supplemented by archaeological, ethnographic and linguistic data dealing with Khazar Jewry and their legacy. This is a most useful introduction to this at times enigmatic, but always fascinating people." - Peter B. Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University

"...[a] very valuable publication..." - Timur Kocaoglu, Associate Professor of Central Asian Studies, Koç University, Istanbul

"...it is a magnificent piece of work and fills many gaps in my knowledge of the Khazars..." - Rabbi Shlomo Yaffe, Director, Institute for Jewish Literacy at Chabad House, West Hartford, CT

"My general impression is very good: the volume of information collected from various sources is very important and this info is presented in a systematic manner. The book is also interesting to read... [T]his [is an] important erudite contribution to the domain in which any theory is questionable and as a result any attempt to shed more light is welcome." - Alexander Beider, author, A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Russian Empire

" am impressed with the scope of [the] research and the fascinating possibilities it presents regarding the nature and origins of the Ashkenazic Jewish community.... The Khazars are an important and a neglected area of research." - Hollace Weiner, author, Jewish Stars in Texas

"Brook has synthesized information from hundreds of sources to give us a picture of this lost medieval Jewish empire. Not only is Brook's book interesting for its information about Central Asian and European history, it also holds great importance for its facts and conjecture about the origins of Eastern European Jewry... Aside from its well-organized text, The Jews of Khazaria has an excellent chronology, glossary, and an extensive bibliography... Anyone who cares about world history or Jewish history would do well to read Brook's amazing book." - Lynda Ritterman, in Inside Your Town (Evesham-Medford-Mt. Laurel-Cherry Hill-Voorhees-Haddonfield-Moorestown, NJ, March 2001 issue)

"Kevin Alan Brook presents the findings of an impressive array of scholarship, referencing primary sources and secondary scholarship written in Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, Armenian, Russian, Hungarian, Swedish and other languages.... A highly useful, comprehensive chronology is given as an appendix.... Far from being [merely] a romantic interlude whose brief existence sparked the imagination of generations, Brook's volume shows that the Khazar experience is intrinsic to the narrative of Jewish history." - Seth Ward, Assistant Professor of Judaic Studies and History, University of Denver, in The Jewish Quarterly Review 91:3-4 (January-April 2001 issue)

"I very much enjoyed reading [this] book on the Khazars." - Ken Blady, author of Jewish Communities in Exotic Places

"...the true great step forward in the study of Khazaria... It is a very complete work, based on broad documentation from multiple sources (Hebraic, Arab, Russian)...." - Claude-Gérard Marcus, in L'Arche: le mensuel du judaïsme français No. 535 (September 2002 issue)

"...a new recapitulatory work... which summarizes all the current research well and which might thus become the standard work for all those who are interested in the early history of East European Judaism." - Thomas Schmidinger, in Context XXI (Vienna, Austria, July 2002) No. 7

Additional reviews and more extensive comments from the above reviews



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TABLE OF CONTENTS for the 2nd Edition
Acknowledgments
Introduction

Chapter 1 -- THE ORIGINS OF THE KHAZARS:
The Turkic Heritage, Legends about the Beginnings of the Jewish Khazars, The Khazars and the Huns, The Western Turkish Empire, The Formation of an Independent Khazar Kingdom, The Effects of Khazar Expansion on the Bulgars

Chapter 2 -- THE CITIES AND TOWNS OF THE KHAZARS:
The Capital Cities of Khazaria, Atil and Khazaran, Balanjar, Chernigov, Cherson, Chufut-Kale, Doros, Feodosia, Kerch (Bospor), Kiev, Kordon-Oba, Mayaki, Samandar (Tamatarkha), Sarkel, Semikarakorskaya, Sudak, Tepsen (Phullai), Upper Saltov (Verkhneye Saltovo), Other Khazar Settlements and Fortresses, The Peoples of the Khazar Empire

Chapter 3 -- THE STRUCTURE OF THE KHAZAR GOVERNMENT:
The Kagan, The Bek (King) and His Army, The Kender and the Javshighar, The Tarkhan, The Court Panel, The Local Governors, Taxation, Tributary Peoples

Chapter 4 -- THE KHAZAR WAY OF LIFE:
Khazar Arts and Crafts, Khazar Agriculture and Food Gathering, The Structure of Khazar Homes, Khazar Costume and Hairstyle, Khazar Graves, Languages Spoken by the Khazars

Chapter 5 -- KHAZARIAN TRADE:
Khazaria as a Great Medieval Trading Center, The Jewish Radhanites, Rus' Traders in Khazaria, Arab Traders in Khazaria, Chinese Traders in Khazaria, Coinage

Chapter 6 -- THE KHAZARS' CONVERSION TO JUDAISM:
The First Jews of Eastern Europe, Khazaria as a Refuge for Persecuted Jews, Tengri Shamanism, the Indigenous Religion of the Khazars, King Bulan's Conversion to Judaism, The Schechter Letter, The Khazar Correspondence, Saint Cyril's Mission to the Khazars, The Kievan Letter, The Date and Depth of the Khazar Conversion to Judaism, Archaeological Evidence, Conclusions

Chapter 7 -- RELATIONS BETWEEN THE KHAZARS AND OTHER PEOPLES:
The Arab-Khazar Wars and Relations with Leaders of the South Caucasus, Relations with the Byzantine Empire, Relations with the Alans, Relations with Other Turkic Tribes, Relations with the Hungarians, Relations with the Rus'

Chapter 8 -- THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE KHAZAR EMPIRE:
The Beginning of the End, The Rus'ian Conquest of the Khazars, The Passing of the Khazar Empire, Reasons for Khazaria's Destruction

Chapter 9 -- THE DIASPORA OF THE KHAZARS:
Khazars in Hungary, Khazars in Transylvania (Romania), Khazars in Moldova, Khazars in Lithuania and Belarus, Khazars in Poland, Khazars in Kievan Rus' (Ukraine), Khazars in the Byzantine Empire, Khazars in Spain, Khazars in Azerbaijan, Khazars in the North Caucasus, Khazars in Russia, Khazars in Kazakhstan, Khazars in Other Parts of the World

Chapter 10 -- EASTERN AND CENTRAL EUROPEAN JEWS AFTER THE TENTH CENTURY:
The East Slavic-Speaking Jews of Eastern Europe: Remnants of the Khazars?, The Migration of Czech Jews into Eastern Europe, The Migration of German Jews into Eastern Europe, How Yiddish Became the Mother Tongue of Eastern European Jews, Are There Khazarian Words in Yiddish?, The Migration of Sephardic Jews into Eastern Europe, The Migration of Mizrakhi ("Eastern") Jews and Romaniote ("Greek") Jews into Eastern Europe, Jews in Medieval Ukraine, Other Early Traces of Jews in Poland, Jews in Lithuania and Belarus, Jews in Hungary: A Special Case?, Jews in Historic Romania, What Genetic Data Demonstrates about Ashkenazic Origins, Do Ashkenazic Jews Descend from Khazars?, Do Krymchaks Descend from Khazars?, Do Crimean and Lithuanian Karaites Descend from Khazars?, Do Mountain Jews of the Caucasus Descend from Khazars?, Do Georgian Jews Descend from Khazars?, Conclusions

Appendix A: Timeline of Khazar History
Appendix B: Glossary
Appendix C: Native Khazarian Personal Names
Appendix D: Other Instances of Conversion to Judaism in History
Bibliography
Index
About the Author

[Anonymous]

Do you post at prison planet? There is a jonthesavage over there and I believe he said something similar and is a supporter of AJ.

Btw, I'm still working this one out. Most of the researchers who say that the khazarian theory doesn't hold water are typically zionists. So I don't trust the info, sorry.

Meanwhile I will make this a work in progress.

Nope I only post at tiu

Like I said unless there is new evidence, the case is closed. This whole story rests of the 2  late medieval sources that just don't hold up. Have you read the sources? all books on these subjects use the same scraps of paper as proof. I don't doubt that the Cosacks or the tarter horde was in that area, but weather or not they converted to jews is only a political tool that has been used for several purposes. Most recently used by the spurned delusional British Israelite movement after their split in 1920's. I am sure you are aware that it was the British Israelite movement that started this whole mess about returning every Hebrew to Palestine in the 1800's. And remember that the Palestine expedition fund mapped out the region prior to ww1 and those maps were used  by the British during war against the ottoman's

You are a smart guy, you will be able to figure it out.

[Anonymous]

Also, John, the debate is far from over. I don't think it is quite time to celebrate a victory or denounce Otto, Freedman, Fagan or others. To say that you can dispel this "myth" is a bit short of arrogance as there is plenty of research still being done.

Have you heard of this guy? From what I can tell he will freely debate anyone on this topic. I have not bought this book yet, but I plan to as soon as I have the funds.

The Jews of Khazaria
by Kevin Alan Brook

I am not celebrating anything, the evidence is what it is.

I recommend you check his sources

cheers

[sullivan]

Unfortunately the whole Khazar myth is hogwosh that was created at the time after ww1 to justify "creating a homeland for the jewish people" but It just doesn't hold any water. The intended purpose of creating a British controlled homeland for the Jews was to prevent any of the remnants of the ottoman empire becoming dominant in the region, and to that extent it has served it's purpose well.

Now interestingly the DNA results of various jews places their origin in Turkey, which places them around Jerusalem = Constantinople = Istanbul. Their real Homeland since they were the Byzantine [Roman] Tax collectors for the empires territories.

There is about as much proof that they were Byzantine Tax collectors as there is that they were a Mongol-Turkic people who converted in 800AD.

Jack Otto is means well, but he has bought hook line and sinker to the propaganda created for a different purpose.

Its all very well saying that, but it is also based on conjecture.

So anyone claiming that Khazars are responsible is ignoring the evidence or ignorant of the evidence that dispels this myth.

Given that the alternatives are pretty scant on evidence too, I can't say I'd blame them.

[LatinAmericanview]

There is about as much proof that they were Byzantine Tax collectors as there is that they were a Mongol-Turkic people who converted in 800AD.

Actually very little is known about this time period. The Church destroyed most of antiquity in the 1300s. The reason for this was that they were imposing there own historical time line on the world. Benedictine Monks simply computed history using numerology and astrology. The Khazarian angle developed after WWI when the British Monarchy which had given the Jews a homeland (against the interests of the Holy See and Attaman/Ottoman empire) via the Balfour Declaration. The Khazar angle was anti-Semitic  tool  to pressure the Jews into being good collaborators. Basically the British Empire (BE) hijacked Christianity mid 1500s. It was decided that Christianity was not going away but that BE had to control it more than the Vatican so they created a breakaway sect. There are lot of breakway sects. It is good business and takes away power from the Holy Roman Empire.  The Sect became the Church of England or the Anglican Church.  Using mysticism the Church of England rewrote religious dogma and created various mythologies. One of the Mythologies was repatriation of Jews to Palestine.  Various interpretations of the bible suggested that the Jews would eventually return to homeland when it was God's will. Since the Jews are clearly in Palestine the questions remains whether is was divine intervention or some other cause. If it were God's will then who could argue with this?  This was a brilliant move- colonization with a religious imperial face lift! The British get a military outpost to safe guard oil and the trade routes and the Jews secure a homeland and become the apple of God's eye.  The Vatican had been dealt a death blow! The Vatican was not going to lose power and do nothing about it. The Holy See said that it was a sign of the anti-Christ! After all the King of the Jews Rothschild had tried in the past to buy Palestine from Sultan and had failed.  Clearly nothing divine about this. Unfortunately, the Jews were becoming dangerously powerful and these faithful administrators had to be reigned in. Another brilliant plan was hatched to befuddle the true believer! The Jew flocking to Palestine are not REAL Jews. They are imposters! They are Khazars! If the Jews currently squatting in Palestine are not real Jews then the covenant between God and God's and Chosen people is null and void. Jews would not have a mandate from God to steal somebody's land. The British Monarchy used this angle to pressure the Jews to do there bidding. The Military and strategic value of Israel can not be understated. The British intelligence officer and future Knight wrote a book about it- The 13th Tribe the Khazar angle. Unfortunately, the evidence is no more than letter from some Rabbi talking with the King about the glorious kingdom of Khazaria. I forget the details. I take personal pride in not remembering somebody's bullshit. It think the letter is dated late 1500s. The Khazars became the synagogue of Satan. Anti-Antisemitism is a great tool. Anybody can use it. Speaking of anybody, do you guys remember Father Charles Edward Coughlin?

Here is a little blurb from wiki:

Father Charles Edward Coughlin (October 25, 1891 – October 27, 1979) was a Canadian-born Roman Catholic priest at Royal Oak, Michigan's National Shrine of the Little Flower Church. He was one of the first political leaders to use radio to reach a mass audience, as more than forty million tuned to his weekly broadcasts during the 1930s. Coughlin used his radio program to promote Franklin D. Roosevelt and his early New Deal proposals, to issue antisemitic commentary, and later to rationalize some of the policies of National Socialist Adolf Hitler and Fascist Benito Mussolini.[1] The broadcasts have been called "a variation of the Fascist agenda applied to American culture".[2] His chief topics were political and economic rather than religious, with his slogan being Social Justice, first with, and later against, the New Deal.

It turns out that he was a fascist working for the Vatican. Fascism was a competing ideology to rival communism. When the tactic failed to incite good Christians to take back America from the "money changers" – the Joos the Vatican disowned his ass. Just as an interesting foot note the good Father is tied into Father Denis Fahey. Yeah the same guy that wrote "Waters Flowing Eastward" the definitive word on the protocols.

All I am saying is there are a lot of angles to this Jew business! Hell, the Joo shit has more angles then the diamonds they peddle.

[Anonymous]

nice one Latin

I would just add that after the after the fascist movement and the Anti-Communist movements failed to produce, The Vatican disowned  and distanced itself  - It then appears that the Vatican tried to gain power via adopting the Liberation Theology. Liberation Theology developed out of the Spanish Civil war and has reeked havoc in South America. Today it seems that the Vatican is trying back away from Liberation Theology.

Also of note is the Suez War - where the joint operations of France, England and Israel placed the smack down of the balance of power in the region.

and of coarse the no win wars in 3rd world  theaters - the grand chess matches.

I have also read that the last Rothschild in financing was eliminated in Paris in the 70's, but I do not have enough info on this. This might be an area to investigate.

[LatinAmericanview]

nice one Latin

I would just add that after the after the fascist movement and the Anti-Communist movements failed to produce, The Vatican disowned  and distanced itself  - It then appears that the Vatican tried to gain power via adopting the Liberation Theology. Liberation Theology developed out of the Spanish Civil war and has reeked havoc in South America. Today it seems that the Vatican is trying back away from Liberation Theology.

Also of note is the Suez War - where the joint operations of France, England and Israel placed the smack down of the balance of power in the region.

and of coarse the no win wars in 3rd world  theaters - the grand chess matches.

I have also read that the last Rothschild in financing was eliminated in Paris in the 70's, but I do not have enough info on this. This might be an area to investigate.

I would add to things. Firstly, the Khazarian letter was written late in the 15th century. The second thing is Jesuit Liberation Theology (today it is call Social Justice Movement) may have not been backed by the Vatican. JLT has reeked havoc on the undeveloped countries of the Americas. The cost of blood and treasure is immeasurable but  the nearly 100% Roman Catholic states have let in communist Ideology and Anti- religion factions into the various countries and now only about 80% of the population is Catholic. According to some the Jewish inspired or create Jehovah Witnesses are gaining a strong foothold in the America's.

[Alek]

There is about as much proof that they were Byzantine Tax collectors as there is that they were a Mongol-Turkic people who converted in 800AD.

Actually very little is known about this time period. The Church destroyed most of antiquity in the 1300s. The reason for this was that they were imposing there own historical time line on the world. Benedictine Monks simply computed history using numerology and astrology. The Khazarian angle developed after WWI when the British Monarchy which had given the Jews a homeland (against the interests of the Holy See and Attaman/Ottoman empire) via the Balfour Declaration. The Khazar angle was anti-Semitic  tool  to pressure the Jews into being good collaborators.

Hmm...it is very little known about any time period, before you start digging and connecting the dots.
There was no recorded "antiquity" as we know it today, so the church couldn't destroy it. And they weren't "imposing their own time line on the world" - they invented that time line.
Now, If these Benedictine monks were using numerology and astrology (and they were) to compute history, it makes you wonder what type of church is that - Cabalistic?

The "Khazarian angle" didn't develop after WWI, it was always there (to many sources to quote).

I have great difficulties understanding this:

"The Khazarian angle developed after WWI when the British Monarchy which had given the Jews a homeland (against the interests of the Holy See and Attaman/Ottoman empire) via the Balfour Declaration. The Khazar angle was anti-Semitic tool to pressure the Jews into being good collaborators."

Could you elaborate more?

[LatinAmericanview]

Listen to the show. You need a basic understanding of our argument. It is not about this subject but rather an overview of the historical model.

Hmm...it is very little known about any time period, before you start digging and connecting the dots.

Well there is very little know about the "Real Past" because all we have is a human conceptualization of the past. This model that we collectively call history may or may not be accurate. The thing we call the past comes to us in the form of artifacts from the past. The Church destroyed those artifacts in order to project their primacy into the past by thousand years. Furthermore, various groups then forged or doctored evidence to support their position or view of history.

There was no recorded "antiquity" as we know it today, so the church couldn't destroy it. And they weren't "imposing their own time line on the world" - they invented that time line.

I don't think you have a understanding of history. Things happened in the past and if things happened then there is physical evidence that things happened. Foot prints in the sand. The Church was not the only power in play therefore there were competing timeliness.

Now, If these Benedictine monks were using numerology and astrology (and they were) to compute history, it makes you wonder what type of church is that - Cabalistic?

Cabalism was merely the science of the time. Since there were no disciplines to speak of everything was mixed to together. Additionally, since there was no real science- Cabalism was a pseudo-science that involved a lot of hit or miss practices.  Alchemy is one such discipline. Alchemy did have some major discoveries namely geo-polymerization concrete. Now that was a nifty little trick.

"The Khazarian angle developed after WWI when the British Monarchy which had given the Jews a homeland (against the interests of the Holy See and Attaman/Ottoman empire) via the Balfour Declaration. The Khazar angle was anti-Semitic tool to pressure the Jews into being good collaborators."

 We believe that the Jews are really no more than a close caste of administrators. At the top of the Jewish caste the Jews know what they are but at the bottom they are just as lost all religious folk. The upper echelon of Jewish power fulfilled prophesy with the creation of the Jewish state. But who actually made to promise of Land to the Jews? It was a promise made on behalf of the British Monarchy! Balfour was British Israelist and he believed in a specific interpretation of the bible that required the return of the Jews to the Homeland. However, the funny thing is that British Israelite movement was a British intelligence operation. Basically the Crown needed access to Middle eastern oil for it naval ships. Additionally the Crown needed to control the trade in that area (Suez canal). The bottom line is history( historical model) and religion are subject to manipulation for political purposes. The sad truth is that you can't argue this positions with a believer. The masses know that they are being screwed over but can let go of their deeply seated beliefs long enough to get a clear picture of the deception. Anyway listen to the shows and you will begin to get picture of our position. By the way, Fomenko is not completely reliable.

[Alek]

Listen to the show. You need a basic understanding of our argument. It is not about this subject but rather an overview of the historical model.

Hmm...it is very little known about any time period, before you start digging and connecting the dots.

Well there is very little know about the "Real Past" because all we have is a human conceptualization of the past. This model that we collectively call history may or may not be accurate. The thing we call the past comes to us in the form of artifacts from the past. The Church destroyed those artifacts in order to project their primacy into the past by thousand years. Furthermore, various groups then forged or doctored evidence to support their position or view of history.

There was no recorded "antiquity" as we know it today, so the church couldn't destroy it. And they weren't "imposing their own time line on the world" - they invented that time line.

I don't think you have a understanding of history. Things happened in the past and if things happened then there is physical evidence that things happened. Foot prints in the sand. The Church was not the only power in play therefore there were competing timeliness.

Now, If these Benedictine monks were using numerology and astrology (and they were) to compute history, it makes you wonder what type of church is that - Cabalistic?

Cabalism was merely the science of the time. Since there were no disciplines to speak of everything was mixed to together. Additionally, since there was no real science- Cabalism was a pseudo-science that involved a lot of hit or miss practices.  Alchemy is one such discipline. Alchemy did have some major discoveries namely geo-polymerization concrete. Now that was a nifty little trick.

"The Khazarian angle developed after WWI when the British Monarchy which had given the Jews a homeland (against the interests of the Holy See and Attaman/Ottoman empire) via the Balfour Declaration. The Khazar angle was anti-Semitic tool to pressure the Jews into being good collaborators."

 We believe that the Jews are really no more than a close caste of administrators. At the top of the Jewish caste the Jews know what they are but at the bottom they are just as lost all religious folk. The upper echelon of Jewish power fulfilled prophesy with the creation of the Jewish state. But who actually made to promise of Land to the Jews? It was a promise made on behalf of the British Monarchy! Balfour was British Israelist and he believed in a specific interpretation of the bible that required the return of the Jews to the Homeland. However, the funny thing is that British Israelite movement was a British intelligence operation. Basically the Crown needed access to Middle eastern oil for it naval ships. Additionally the Crown needed to control the trade in that area (Suez canal). The bottom line is history( historical model) and religion are subject to manipulation for political purposes. The sad truth is that you can't argue this positions with a believer. The masses know that they are being screwed over but can let go of their deeply seated beliefs long enough to get a clear picture of the deception. Anyway listen to the shows and you will begin to get picture of our position. By the way, Fomenko is not completely reliable.

He-he... sir, your (attacking) style looks somewhat familiar.
You say a lot but there is basically no substance, no meaning (which is why I couldn't finish listening to your show), only patronizing (unfounded arrogance), empty lecturing and nonsense - you must be a philosopher.
Oh, and an open apologetic for the "chosen" ones. Yep, it was the British Monarchy & those pesky British Israelists who needed the oil. How could I have missed that "fact" all these years?

"The Khazar angle was anti-Semitic tool to pressure the Jews into being good collaborators" - What!?


Hmm.... A Latino or Ladino? :roll:


P.S. Look, there is a lot of excellent information in Fomenko's and the other History books I've mentioned earlier. Many people are interested in finding out more about History outside official propaganda, so If you are really genuine, stop confusing the interested party with your "philosophical teachings". Just leave it alone, don't lead them nowhere...I'm sure they will be able to figure out what is going on by themselves.

[LatinAmericanview]

You have five posts here. You do not have the history or social credit to attack me. Have you produced anything? Where is your body of work? I at least have tried to provide information. There are many players involved in this. Fomenko's work is questionable on several fronts. However, there is good information but it comes at a cost. MEI book has no citations! This just unacceptable. The Jews certainly have role the current state of affairs. However, we argue a different position. I also find it curious that you could peddle Fomenko and MEI and not see the Jews as Administrators? So what is your position without attacking me? If you could do that. How would you define history?

[Alek]

You have five posts here. You do not have the history or social credit to attack me. Have you produced anything? Where is your body of work? I at least have tried to provide information. There are many players involved in this. Fomenko's work is questionable on several fronts. However, there is good information but it comes at a cost. MEI book has no citations! This just unacceptable. The Jews certainly have role the current state of affairs. However, we argue a different position. I also find it curious that you could peddle Fomenko and MEI and not see the Jews as Administrators? So what is your position without attacking me? If you could do that. How would you define history?

Your reaction (especially regarding the number of posts, history or social credit) is self-explanatory and, how shall I put it....not very Latino, but Ladino.  I'm with Daryl on this one: "I'm not doing this to be popular or likable" (paraphrasing).
I'm not going to turn this into an endless and pointless "debate", because obviously you have read nothing from Fomenko nor from any other book mentioned by me previously (which explains why you didn't react on Edwin Johnson). You offer no credible discussion/debate on Historical sources but only peddle crapola and try to impress people here with that. And in between comes:
"The Jews certainly have role the current state of affairs."    --------   No kidding! Are you sure?
Reminds me of the early Henry Makow's writings...

"How would you define history?"  ----------- Define History?! Do I sound like a philosopher to you?
And who cares how I or you defines History? It either makes sense and can be proved through research or it's bull.

And again, don't confuse the potential researchers of History outside the official propaganda on purpose (which I believe), or otherwise. That's all I want from you.

[LatinAmericanview]

Seven posts and 5 have been in response to me. Mostly negative attacks. The implication is that I am a marrano Jew. Lets try this another way. In the Medieval Empire of the Israelites on what page are the table of contents? Defining history is one the point of Fomenko's books. I am not familiar with Edwin Jackson. So I have no opinion. I have also noticed your name dropping technique to get social credit. Twice you mention DBS. What is up with that? The interesting thing is that you can not read Fomenko's work and still hold steadfast the Khazar angle. Fomenko basically states that history can not be known any earlier that 1300s. That is about 500 years before the Khazar mass conversion. So you have a logical problem. You stated in an earlier thread that you thought Fomenko work flaw from a linguistic angle so you have no problems with the limits of historical knowing. Anyway you win. Please feel free to continue this in PMs.

[Alek]

Seven posts and 5 have been in response to me. Mostly negative attacks. The implication is that I am a marrano Jew. Lets try this another way. In the Medieval Empire of the Israelites on what page are the table of contents? Defining history is one the point of Fomenko's books. I am not familiar with Edwin Jackson. So I have no opinion. I have also noticed your name dropping technique to get social credit. Twice you mention DBS. What is up with that? The interesting thing is that you can not read Fomenko's work and still hold steadfast the Khazar angle. Fomenko basically states that history can not be known any earlier that 1300s. That is about 500 years before the Khazar mass conversion. So you have a logical problem. You stated in an earlier thread that you thought Fomenko work flaw from a linguistic angle so you have no problems with the limits of historical knowing. Anyway you win. Please feel free to continue this in PMs.

Well, are you a marrano?

The table of contents are of course on the last page (but I didn't had to own the book to know that because I know that in Russia they put the table of contents in the end).

Its not Jackson but Johnson, been mentioned twice. He predates Morozov....oh, it doesn't matter.

I don't use techniques and never drop names on purpose. Actually, there are a number of things I disagree with Daryl, but that's another subject altogether.

No, I don't have a logical problem - you have! Fomenko most probably correctly states that history can not be known any earlier than 1300s because it's impossible to follow any trays further back (I had more or less similar view before knowing about him). And then you state:
"That is about 500 years before the Khazar mass conversion."
Do you see your fault? You deal with two completely different chronology's simultaneously, the official and the revised.

You said:
"You stated in an earlier thread that you thought Fomenko work flaw from a linguistic angle so you have no problems with the limits of historical knowing."
There you go again with a nonsensical sentence. - "....work flaw from a linguistic angle...limits of historical knowing."

[sullivan]

Fomenko most probably correctly states that history can not be known any earlier than 1300s because it's impossible to follow any trays further back

I'll nail my colours to the mast here by saying I have little time for Fomenko's theories of history. Even if I didn't regard these theories as based on pathological science, I'd be very suspicious of anyone who has  Gary Kasparov as a fanboy. Fomenko's work appears to have been constructed to lead to one particular conclusion - that the Russians are the successors to the Byzantines.

Fomenko's theories are built on a highly selective and fundamentally unscientific usage of historical sources, he massages the data he uses (historical events, astronomical phenomena) to ensure the results fit with his theories, mainly by selectively matching data from the historical record that supports his new chronology, while at the same time blithely ignoring those that do not fit.  That someone whose academic specialisation is Mathematics is so apparently reckless with statistical method is beyond comprehension.

Fomenko cites the results of radiometric dating as inaccurate, but that inaccuracy is widely known, as is the margin of error. He also ignores the fact that when different dating methods are used on material from the same layer at a dig site, the results usually indicate similar ages.

The icing on the cake of his fundamentally flawed and ad-hoc work has to be his coalescing of the characters of Pope Gregory Hildebrand and Jesus Christ, purely on the basis that both began their 'ministries' with baptism, again ignoring the many dissimilar aspects in their lives.

[LatinAmericanview]

You deal with two completely different chronology's simultaneously, the official and the revised.

 The Chronologies the consensual chronology developed by Scaliger and Fomenko's Chronology can not bee reconciled. The Khazar conversion belongs to the Scaligerian Chronology. If your only contention with Fomenko is his linguistic analysis then you would have no problem disregarding the Khazar information since it does not work  within the Fomenko Chronology. Again the Khazar conversion exceeds what Fomenko thinks is knowable history by 500 years. So here we have a problem. How do we explain the Khazars? I believe that Khazars are a rather recent development in history maybe as late as middle 17th century. Lastly, there are several version of history being peddle today. There is the old Scaligerin Chronology, accepted revisionism, Fomenko's version, and what Orwell described as such:

George Orwell
Arthur Koestler

One striking fact about English literature during the present century is the extent to which it has been dominated by foreigners — for example, Conrad, Henry James, Shaw, Joyce, Yeats, Pound and Eliot. Still, if you chose to make this a matter of national prestige and examine our achievement in the various branches of literature, you would find that England made a fairly good showing until you came to what may be roughly described as political writing, or pamphleteering.

and this

Some of the outstanding figures in this school of writers are Silone, Malraux, Salvemini, Borkenau, Victor Serge and Koestler himself. Some of these are imaginative writers, some not, but they are all alike in that they are trying to write contemporary history, but unofficial history, the kind that is ignored in the text-books and lied about in the newspapers.

Hmm.... A Latino or Ladino? :roll:

Jews are Khazars you can tell because none of them look Arabic or Semitic in the least, except for the Sephardim who were North African Berber Troglodyte cave dwellers converted around the year 700 AD who migrated to Spain. Actually, many "Latinos" are crypto-Sephardi, the term "Latino" comes from "Ladino" which mean "Spanish Jew" the ADL even has a specific program to help "Latinos" Untold millions of them came here when Queen Isabelle kicked them out of Spain.

Alex

I am fairly certain that word Latino comes from the word origin Latinuis. I would be curious to see your supporting documentation.

This interesting stuff. But really how many freaking Jews were in Spain? You say Millions but how many Jews were in the world population?

This Jew by innuendo is bullshit! Provide proof for your claims. Support your arguments. By the way, I did not know that Russia books put there Table of contents in the back. Sadly Medieval Empire of Israelites provides no citations.

Lastly, maybe you could provide links to E. Johnson material. I know not of his work.


Finally, of your total 8 posts 7 have all been related to responses to me. So what is the deal buddy?

[LatinAmericanview]

Fomenko most probably correctly states that history can not be known any earlier than 1300s because it's impossible to follow any trays further back

I'll nail my colours to the mast here by saying I have little time for Fomenko's theories of history. Even if I didn't regard these theories as based on pathological science, I'd be very suspicious of anyone who has  Gary Kasparov as a fanboy. Fomenko's work appears to have been constructed to lead to one particular conclusion - that the Russians are the successors to the Byzantines.

I think that Gary Wienstein have hijacked the research to push a particular agenda that being a one world superstate. Fomenko does not push this idea but it is clear the revisionisthistory.org does.

Fomenko's theories are built on a highly selective and fundamentally unscientific usage of historical sources, he massages the data he uses (historical events, astronomical phenomena) to ensure the results fit with his theories, mainly by selectively matching data from the historical record that supports his new chronology, while at the same time blithely ignoring those that do not fit.  That someone whose academic specialisation is Mathematics is so apparently reckless with statistical method is beyond comprehension.

I disagree with this position but I still have some issues with his methodology.

Fomenko cites the results of radiometric dating as inaccurate, but that inaccuracy is widely known, as is the margin of error. He also ignores the fact that when different dating methods are used on material from the same layer at a dig site, the results usually indicate similar ages.

The problem here is the margin of error within the Radiocarbon dating exceeds the time period we are investigating. It is like saying event X happened in 3,000 years ago plus or minus 4,000 year margin of error.

The icing on the cake of his fundamentally flawed and ad-hoc work has to be his coalescing of the characters of Pope Gregory Hildebrand and Jesus Christ, purely on the basis that both began their 'ministries' with baptism, again ignoring the many dissimilar aspects in their lives.

This part of a larger argument suggesting that many events were phantom projection of medieval history projected in the past. I find this research thought provoking. The thing that I get from Fomenko is that History has been fabricated for political purposes. Beyond this modest point we are unable to verify many claims made by traditional Chronologist and Fomenko and his followers.

[Alek]

Fomenko most probably correctly states that history can not be known any earlier than 1300s because it's impossible to follow any trays further back

I'll nail my colours to the mast here by saying I have little time for Fomenko's theories of history. Even if I didn't regard these theories as based on pathological science, I'd be very suspicious of anyone who has  Gary Kasparov as a fanboy. Fomenko's work appears to have been constructed to lead to one particular conclusion - that the Russians are the successors to the Byzantines.

Fomenko's theories are built on a highly selective and fundamentally unscientific usage of historical sources, he massages the data he uses (historical events, astronomical phenomena) to ensure the results fit with his theories, mainly by selectively matching data from the historical record that supports his new chronology, while at the same time blithely ignoring those that do not fit.  That someone whose academic specialisation is Mathematics is so apparently reckless with statistical method is beyond comprehension.

Fomenko cites the results of radiometric dating as inaccurate, but that inaccuracy is widely known, as is the margin of error. He also ignores the fact that when different dating methods are used on material from the same layer at a dig site, the results usually indicate similar ages.

The icing on the cake of his fundamentally flawed and ad-hoc work has to be his coalescing of the characters of Pope Gregory Hildebrand and Jesus Christ, purely on the basis that both began their 'ministries' with baptism, again ignoring the many dissimilar aspects in their lives.

I said in another post that nothing is 100% reliable and I'm not defending Fomenko. He states, for instance, that the inhabitants of my country of origin were known by a different name (after a country which just happens to have better historical ties with Russia), which is an obviously political bull and nonsense. But I had found conformation from original sources in other areas about doubts a had regarding chronology, and especially historical events as duplicates or triplicates.
He is just a starting point for what is coming. Think about the global awareness of jewish domination ten or fifty years ago.
What Kasparov has contributed holds water - did you read his paper? I know what he is and what he stands for, but that is irrelevant here:
http://www.revisedhistory.org/view-garry-kasparov.htm

This is a huge subject and I'm too tired to go on right now.

[LatinAmericanview]

This the philosophical position of www.revisedhistory.org

The traditional national oppositions and prejudices that are caused by modern education and culture are a most convenient instrument of politics - of the politics of war and repression. "Divide and dominate," while not forgetting to renovate the national combat capability which decays with time. An attendant army of ideologues is always at the ready. He who is in an easy, and he who is in an incomparably harsher and more severe form advocates, lucidly explains, and "scientifically" proves national goals. If there is a national order, then it doesn't take long to find an executor.

Unite all people by destroying their local myths.

Human life is represented as a mythical victim in the name of the nation. The national bosom gives rise to the soldier.
We no longer want to be soldiers. We no longer want to fight with each other. We no longer want to bow down to this idol.

In other words no more nations just one big world.

The supranational worldview is the result of overcoming the traditional - the national. Rising above the convention of the modern national and political map of the world, we break loose into the wide expanse of life common to all mankind. From this height all "national ideas" and their basis look like easy and absurd pretensions, which hinder the movement to a unified world. From within, everything has been constructed logically and, above all, substantiated historically.

 Where will the leaders come from?
What intersts will they represent?

What do these traditional "national histories" mean? What will help us to discredit these myths? What are we receiving in exchange?

We will now accept the new myths created by the new historical experts.

Mission
We are creating an intellectual and political space for the formation of a community of individuals who are making steps toward a new, supranational world.

The researcher, who is overcoming the narrow-mindedness of the national approach to the study and exposition of history, is making the results of his work accessible to the community at large. The world, gradually finding its real history, will find itself young and, above all, UNITED.

The businessman, who by the logic itself of his own business already is brought to the need to perceive the world as UNIFIED and SUPRANATIONAL, supports historic, sociologic and political science research, freed from national dictates.
The creative personality, anticipating the onset of a NEW UNIFIED SUPRANATIONAL WORLD, reflects this movement in all of its complexity and varieties.

Everyone, for whom the limits of the national are too tight, has the opportunity to participate in the collective creation of NEW TRADITION.

However they have very interesting information. Some of their information certianly creates huge problems for the Scaligerian Chronology.