Judaism v.s Zionism

[shZ]

Here's a great article that should clear up any confsion of terminology and also to stress why I believe it's very important to never use them interchangeably. Plus I thought it was a good read worth posting.

Judaism And Zionism

A broadcast by one of our members over Station WBAI-FM, New York (8/27/69)

I am a member of the Friends of Jerusalem, an American affiliate of the world wide Jewish Neturei Karta movement, the leadership of which is in Jerusalem. In commenting on Jewish affairs, there is no topic more vital today than a clarification on the differences between Judaism and Zionism. All too many Americans are still under the impression that these terms are more or less synonymous - that being a Jew means automatically to be a Zionist and that this also implies a certain loyalty to the State of Israel. Let me there state right at the beginning that Judaism and Zionism are completely incompatible and are mutually exclusive. If you are a good Jew, you cannot be a Zionist. If you are a Zionist, you cannot be a good Jew. The reason for this is fairly simple to explain. The Jews are not a race, such as Caucausians or Negroes, as Hitler contended. The Jews are not a nation, like France, Great Britain, the United States, or any other of the nations. And they are not just a religion, like Catholicism, Buddhism, or any of the Protestant denominations. They are, rather, a unique combination, unlike any other. It is true that Jews are, according to the Bible and their own belief, the Chosen People. But they are not chosen for domination; they are not elected to rule over other people; but they are chosen for one purpose only: for service - to serve the Creator of the Universe and the Father of us all in a very special way, and thereby to serve all mankind.

While, according to the Jewish faith, there are only seven laws that are automatically binding and valid for each human being and while there are the Ten Commandments which have been accepted by the civilized world and particularly by the monotheistic faiths as appropriate basic rules for human behavior, the Jews are subject to 613 commandments which are in one way or another mentioned in the Five Books of Moses. These laws, which have been codified and spelled out and commented on throughout the centuries in an immense number of books, constituting the Rabbinic and Halachic literature, are obligatory for everyone born of a Jewish mother or one who has voluntarily accepted the Jewish faith.

Political Zionism started in Europe more then seventy years ago under the impact of anti-semitism. It is a complete departure from this ancient and holy tradition. The leading figures in Zionism from the very beginning have always been men and women who rejceted the obligatory nature of these Jewish religious laws, who have never lived by this code and who indeed deny categoricallyeven that the Bible is of divine origin, there by reducing the Five Books of Moses, the writing of the Prophets, and the other books which together make up the Tenach - the Hebrew Bible - to mere foklore and ancient sagas and tales [heaven forfend].

The aims of Zionism are: to give the Jewish people a country of their own, to revive Hebrew as its everyday language, to give it a government of its own, a plariament, an army, navy and air force - and all the other paraphernalia and characteristics of a nation like all others. The Jews, who in the words of the Bible are to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, are supposed to lose their special character.

Zionists consider it a great day when they declared the State of Israel to be in existence and again when the flag of their state was raised on a flagstaff in front of the United Nations among the banners of all other countries.

This creation of a secular, so-called Jewish state is treason to the Jewish people, as constituted on Mount Sinai. It is not only a crass degradation from a lofty and singular level, but in thus changing the character and mission of the Jewish people, it would also do the following:

   1. Free the Jews as a people from their religious obligation as outlined above.
   2. Subject the Jewish people to the ordinary laws of national existence, thus ending the unique and extraordinary qualities that let the Jews, as a people, survive through the milennia, and make these people (G-d forbid) vanish like all the other nations that have apperared on the surface of the earth and long since have been relegated to history.
   3. It would automatically and inevitably - the State of Israel now being a nation like the others, but claiming a special relationship to Jews everywhere - force these Jews, in case of conflict, to face and decide questions of their primary loyalty. It is hardly necessary to add that this problem of loyalty has already been posed in a number of countries during the past twenty years.

In this short presentation, it is impossible to deal with the impact of Zionism on the United States, although this would be a very interesting topic, or with the danger that it creates for other countries. We are tonight concerned only with the difference between Zionists - and Jews who are loyal to their faith.

It might be mentioned that there are minority groups and parties in Israel and elsewhere who try to combine the traditional practice of Jewish faith with Zionist activity, but by its very nature, this is a hopeless cause. By accepting the leadership of irreligious or anti-religious Jews, who under Jewish law are not qualified to exercise any leadership or occupy a position of trust within the Jewish community, and also by subjecting matters of faith and religious law to parliamentary and other majority votes, they actually admit the priority of the secular national Jewish state over the divinely instituted special nationhood of the Jewish people.

After these basic considerations, the remaining minutes will be used to answer some obvious questions, such as:

   1. Isn't it very beneficial for the self-respect of the Jews that they now have a country of their own and a highly efficient and dependable army?
   2. If Zionism is so absolutely contrary to Judaism, how is that so many Jews are sympathetic toward Zionism?
   3. If there were no State of Israel, where would persecuted Jews find a place of refuge?
   4. Who is going to speak in the name of those Jews who are helpless and who is going to defend them?

Let us answer these questions in order:

   1. The Holy Land is and always has been beloved by religious Jews and that land, and the city of Jerusalem, are mentioned innumerable times every single day in prayers said by Jews everywhere. These prayers have been said for thousands of years, but they have nothing to do with the atheists who founded the State of Israel or with their state. On the contrary, these prayers also state [that] the Jews' exile from Eretz Yisroel is willed by the Ruler and Father of us all; and as to self-respect because of victitious army and bombers, the Bible states that the Jews have been chosen because they are the most humble and self-demeaning of all nations, not because of their worldly or military power. And the fact, that during the past twenty years more Jews have been killed in the Israeli wars than anywhere else on earth and that more non-Jews have been killed there by Jews than anywhere else, is not a source of pride, but one of the deepest regret to all Jews who have not been infected by the poison of Zionism.
   2. It is not all suprising that so many Jews have been swayed by Zionism. Anyone who is suprised by this fact reveals an abysmal ignorance of Jewish history. Right from the start of Jewish peoplehood - and it is significant that the Bible tells us that the Jews became a nation in the wilderness, not in the land of Israel - it happened all too often that the vast majority of Jews were misled and followed false prophets and false gods - from the Golden Calf and the Baal, to the fake messianic movements of all ages down to today's Zionism. But any student of Jewish history knows that in the long run, all these movements failed and that only that Judaism and those Jews survived as Jews who accepted the primacy and totality of the Jewish Written and Oral Law.
   3. As to the State of Israel as a place of refuge, this is perhaps the greatest fallacy of them all. Anyone who has read such books as Min Hametzar by the late Rabbi Weissmandl or Perfidy by the late Ben Hecht is aware of Zionist treachery during the most critical time of the Nazi persecution. In fact, Zionism is most interested in undermining the position of Jews in other countries so as to make them emigrate to the State of Israel and this plan has already been systematically carried out in a number of countries. One prime example is the burning of the synagogues in Iraq sixteen years ago, not by anti-Jewish enemies but admittedly by Zionist emissaries, who actually succeeded thereby in uprooting a Jewish community that had endured literally for thousands of years. The Zionist giant ghetto, far from being able to support Jewish communities elsewhere, has its hands full and needs support from abroad just to defend itself!

And finally, as to the Zionists as the legitimate spokesmen for all Jews, they have been neither appointed nor elected by a majority of Jews to speak or act for them.* From a religious point of view, they are completely and utterly disqualified from exercising any function, even within a local Jewish community, let alone being authorized to act on a national or international basis, except, of course, for Zionist party members.

Let me sum up by repeating what I said initially. A good Jew cannot be a Zionist. A Zionist cannot be a good Jew.

*Note: During the convention of the Zionist Organization of America in August 1969 it was announced that their membership decreased from 250,000 members to 100,000.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/broadcast.html

Along with this:

Jewish Like Me
by Jesse Rosenfeld

January 21, 2007


Like most kids growing up Jewish, I loved Israel. I identified with the country and saw my Jewish identity expressed in it.

Maybe it was because I found inspiration in an Israeli culture that seemed to focus on youth. I liked how David Ben-Gurion, Israel

[shZ]

I guess I also wanted to add that I think it's important to be objective with respect to choice of terminology to be professional about your research.

[shZ]

Something the mainstream corporate media will never show; Anti-Zionist Jews and Muslims against Zionism:
[youtube:lznfcrga]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOX6R1Nst04[/youtube]lznfcrga]

[Anonymous]

Not that there isn't good info, and that this can't be used to convince people that Zionism is bad and Israel should not exist according to the Jewish faith.

But the person making the broadcast admits themselves that Judaism today is based on the Talmud (Oral Law) as well as the Tanakh:

But any student of Jewish history knows that in the long run, all these movements failed and that only that  Judaism and those  Jews survived as Jews who accepted the primacy and totality of the Jewish Written and Oral Law.

And earlier makes mention of the need of any Jew to follow written and Rabbinic and Halachic law of commentaries (Talmud) on the original law:

These laws, which have been codified and spelled out and commented on throughout the centuries in an immense number of books, constituting the Rabbinic and Halachic literature, are obligatory for everyone born of a Jewish mother or one who has voluntarily accepted the Jewish faith.

Food for thought as to how honest these fellows are about their philosophy...

[shZ]

I don't really think there's anything short of being affected personally in a very tangible way would make most people snap out of their slumber regarding any issues, let alone Zionism. As far as I know, the Talmud is not a part of 'authentic' Judaism, but rather a record of rabbinical ideas. Here's another clip I thought was interesting:
[youtube:2zhrxuzf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo[/youtube]2zhrxuzf]

[sullivan]

Not that there isn't good info, and that this can't be used to convince people that Zionism is bad and Israel should not exist according to the Jewish faith.

But the person making the broadcast admits themselves that Judaism today is based on the Talmud (Oral Law) as well as the Tanakh:

The author also fails to mention that the vast majority of world Jewry has no lineage that can be traced back to the Middle East.  The Ashkenazim are descendents of Mongol-Turks (Attila the Hun and pals), the European Sephardim descend primarily from converted Moors and Berbers. Only the Mizrahi Sephardim have any connection with the lands of the Middle East.

[joeblow]

Not that there isn't good info, and that this can't be used to convince people that Zionism is bad and Israel should not exist according to the Jewish faith.

But the person making the broadcast admits themselves that Judaism today is based on the Talmud (Oral Law) as well as the Tanakh:

The author also fails to mention that the vast majority of world Jewry has no lineage that can be traced back to the Middle East.  The Ashkenazim are descendents of Mongol-Turks (Attila the Hun and pals), the European Sephardim descend primarily from converted Moors and Berbers. Only the Mizrahi Sephardim have any connection with the lands of the Middle East.

Mr. sullivan, I have to thank you for clearing and unequivocally stating the absolute truth concerning the lineage of Modern Jewry. Most people just do not fathom that the true divisions of among the Talmuds (because all those groups listed still follow that Hate Book).

[shZ]

Not that there isn't good info, and that this can't be used to convince people that Zionism is bad and Israel should not exist according to the Jewish faith.

But the person making the broadcast admits themselves that Judaism today is based on the Talmud (Oral Law) as well as the Tanakh:

The author also fails to mention that the vast majority of world Jewry has no lineage that can be traced back to the Middle East.  The Ashkenazim are descendents of Mongol-Turks (Attila the Hun and pals), the European Sephardim descend primarily from converted Moors and Berbers. Only the Mizrahi Sephardim have any connection with the lands of the Middle East.

Yeah, I know. Most people also don't know the 'holocaust' figures are totally blown out of proportion and exaggerated. That much is to be expected from the left or radical left. Even if they're aware of it, they're not going to touch it with a 10ft poll.

[shZ]

Israeli Soldiers Refusing To Serve In Palestine

[youtube:27ce7rfa]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA2PsnNGGl0[/youtube]27ce7rfa]
[youtube:27ce7rfa]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLqqNZW2O50[/youtube]27ce7rfa]

[Anonymous]

http://judicial-inc.biz/Sayanim.htm

"What Is A Sayanim ?

The Sayanim is a Jewish person, that can be called on to assist another Jew in any cause. Since birth, the Jewish people have been taught of their superiority and need for cohesion. The Sephardic Jews are the upper level of the network, and the Ashkenazim, which constitute 95% of all Jews, are the worker ants. Since the Sephardics first converted the Ashkenazim, they brainwashed them into the idea that the world is their enemy, but their fellow Jew is a "Quiet Guardian". "

[Anonymous]

There's no such thing as a good jew.  Never will be either.  Judaism was responsible for how many genocides before zionism came along?  Right.  I'll keep the two one and the same in my mind.  

There is a MAJOR push right now, or for the past year even to separate zionists from the rest of the jews.  No go.  This is a bunch of bs, imho.  The jews have realized that they are being exposed at an exponential rate now, and they are trying to save their asses, or the asses of at least a few to be left behind when it's all said and done.  This way jews can start the subversion process all over again.  The torah and talmud are BOTH evil supremacist doctrines that my research has shown jews view as ONE AND THE SAME.  The talmud is simply a verbal extension of the torah.  

You could scream how wrong I am until the end of time, but leave ONE JEW behind, and our children and grand children will suffer the same fate of usury, subversion, blood rituals, murder, genocide, pedophilia, rape, murder, etc that we are seeing now.  When there's a problem that jews want to confront ALL jews are ONE, but when a problem confronts THEM, oh, they're different little groups of jews...some good some bad.....pff.

[Anonymous]

There's no such thing as a good jew.

Wrong, you are oversimplifying the identification term "Jew" when it has several definition in our present time.  Many use that label who are not "true" "Jews" in the religious sense, but nonetheless call themselves by such an identifier.  To blindly associate the sheeple "Jews" who are not Talmudic, who are not religious - even though their choice for identification with that tribal cultural term is a fallacy - is incorrect.

Would a person who mistakenly identifies themselves as "Jew" but does not share the above qualifications for an evil "Jew" (blind allegiance, hate, supremacy, etc, etc), still be part of your conception of the enemy?  Please explain.  This is a semantic argument but it is one that needs to be clear.  You cannot act blindly as well and cast every person who identifies, in a false identity, of being the enemy.  Or this not your proper intention?  Are you implying the "Jew" - who is not "Jewish" according to the characteristics we associate them to have - is not a "Jew" and we should therefore call them something else other than what they themselves have chosen to falsely identify with?  Ignorance is an issue in their own identity, it does not make them evil just for doing so.  Please explain you stance regarding the argument I have just made.

Peace.

[Anonymous]

Well, I wrote a nice long reply explaining it, but a "general error" deleted my reply as I posted it.  Wonderful.

This is how I see it.  If one chooses to ignorantly (or not) label themselves as a jew they deserve no quarter what so ever.  Judaism must be wiped from the face of the earth or your grandchildren will be right back in the same boat.  You cool with that on your conscious?  Not me.  Whether it's judaism, the torah, kaballah, whatever.  It's like the saying "those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither".  Well, those who would ignorantly add themselves to the fray should not be shown any mercy.  They are (however miniscule) a part of the problem.  Since there are supposedly so many "good jews", how are you going to ever tell them from the bad ones?  Exactly.....you can't.  It's not for no reason that men like Henry Ford, Ben Franklin, and others warned us not to let ONE jew into our countries because eventually we will be right back where we started with the "jews".

[Anonymous]

About the Franklin quote, I made a post about it here: http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1336&p=6487

I was wondering if anyone had any way to substantiate the quote with some form of evidence.  As it stands, it is not a good quote to use to validate that one of the founders of the USA was against "Jews", even though it may be true.  We need to be careful what evidence we use to back up our claims...

[Anonymous]

You might be right that there's no substantiation for that quote, I haven't looked at it that closely, but my point still stands.  Are you cool with leaving the "good jews" in our countries and risking the future of your children?  I'm not and never will be.

[shZ]

There's no such thing as a good jew.

Wrong, you are oversimplifying the identification term "Jew" when it has several definition in our present time.

Thank you.

[shZ]

You might be right that there's no substantiation for that quote, I haven't looked at it that closely, but my point still stands.  Are you cool with leaving the "good jews" in our countries and risking the future of your children?  I'm not and never will be.

So you're essentially advocating a label specific genocide of an entire people along with the complete extermination of Judaism as faith (indirectly including Christianity, as it cannot exist with out Judaism)?

EDIT: What 'brand' of freedom are you advocating here exactly? It's certainly not the type your masonic founding fathers had in mind (who had their own delusional ideas of supremacy, you know, over native Americans and Africans).

[Anonymous]

I am advocating getting rid of every last jew or person who would label themselves a jew, yes 100%.  They are advocating the same for gentiles.  Good luck figuring it out.  Who you think wrote the christian bible anyway?  Oh...I see.

I am advocating freedom from ALL jews for all gentiles.  Get it?  Are you ok with leaving some of the "good" jews behind?  Maybe just the "true torah" jews?  Or this or that sect of jews?  Let's look at it like this.  The jews were exiled how many times from Britain?  How many times from France?  What about other countries around the world with repeated exiles?  Yup....and what happened to said exiles?  Jews and crypto jews worked their way back in.  They're not worried about time, they've got forever.  They'll get back in one way or another and YOUR CHILDREN and grand children will suffer the SAME FATE AGAIN.  

Are YOU ok with THAT on your conscious?  What is with this place?  Why all the save the jews?  Something VERY fishy around here.

[Anonymous]

Are YOU ok with THAT on your conscious? What is with this place? Why all the save the jews? Something VERY fishy around here.

Get your head out of the gutter.  if someone calls themselves a "Jew", but doesn't adhere to religious faith, doesn't practice any religious days, doesn't follow that tribal culture, doesn't hate others, then they are not a threat, they have no way to propagate the evil they are not part of.  For all intensiona nd purpose they are not even "Jewish", its just an identity label.

[Anonymous]

An evil identity label that someone would purposely don upon themselves at that.  Get your head out of your ass.  If someone chooses to identify themselves with the worst evil and depravity this world has ever seen, supporting them is sealing your own fate.  Why would someone want to be a jew and do nothing a jew does?  Hmm.......this place is very very interesting.  I see more excuses made for jews here than just about anywhere else.  I'll keep my head in the gutter, at least it's not burried in the sand.