Water Fuel

[mgt23]

2d50rz59]

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Careful there Mgt23 this could open up a whole slew of Waterfuel posts...  

I've got a little catalog going back to 2001.

[MikeWB]

Genepax is a hoax.  They use metal hydride as the fuel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_hydride

So yeah, they are adding water but the cost of metal hydride is quite something else! It's much, much more expensive than gasoline.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl? ... 14/1737231

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07 ... estion.php

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06 ... unking.php

Water-Powered Car Saga
Last month, we wrote about the Genepax 'Water Car' and were surprised by how many people were ready to believe that it truly worked with water as the only fuel without special explanation or evidence from those who make the claim. Right now the post has 124 comments, which is higher than average for TreeHugger, and a significant portion of those talk about rewriting the laws of physics and such.

A Question for 'Water Car' True Believers
But there's a question we'd like to ask those who are so certain that 'water cars' (with water as the only fuel, and not as an energy carrier via hydrogen) already work and are somehow kept hidden: If some people had that technology, why would cars be the first thing they try to make? That's hard, with huge supply chains and massive capital investments, lots of regulations and red tape, etc. Why not make power plants right next to rivers (or just use tap water) and sell the power?

They could start very small (less than 1 megawatt) to show that it works. That would be much more profitable, no? Or even sell the technology to makers of portable electronics, which don't have vested interests in oil and cars.

So why aren't we hearing about 'water power plants' (other than hydro), or 'water powered laptops'? It's always 'water cars', and mostly when gas prices are up. Could it be that it's just a really nice story that strikes the imagination (the image of pouring water in a fuel tank is powerful), the way many urban legends do?



Conclusion on Water Cars
We'll conclude this post the same way we concluded the Genepax post: "As Carl Sagan used to say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The next time you hear about a water car, remember that and don't get your hopes up too quickly."

We'd be the first to be overjoyed if it really worked (we're not against the idea), but before we jump around, we'll need some serious evidence and not just PR stunts that don't really explain anything (and that are probably designed to lure investors).

[mgt23]

I too thought the science was dodgy as a water car does rely on separating oxygen and hydrogen-but combusts both(presumably in two different chambers). the question is does it take more energy to separate water, than the combustion process gives. I have yet to see a working experimental model in front of me to take it apart so i dont have enough data to form an opinion.

[jai_mann]

I too thought the science was dodgy as a water car does rely on separating oxygen and hydrogen-but combusts both(presumably in two different chambers). the question is does it take more energy to separate water, than the combustion process gives. I have yet to see a working experimental model in front of me to take it apart so i dont have enough data to form an opinion.

I've been researching this and working on some projects of my own over the last 3 years. Conventional electrolysis can be used in conjunction w/ standard fuel to get a more complete burn which improves fuel efficiency. The time and labor doesn't justify the minor gain IMHO. On the other hand non-conventional water splitting via Tesla based high frequency currents (neutrinolysis) will do the trick.

http://www.intalek.com/Papers/zaev1.pdf

That's a good paper giving the experimental results of research upon energy transformation. One form of energy is converted to another via an inductive circuit which under goes rapid contact breaks on the order of 10KhZ and up. The more rapid the switching the more energy converted. The rate of change of the voltage over time is an asymptote which travels down to the level that the battery or source is rated for. So the more confined the window of switching the higher the pressure. Zaev reports the effect of heat conversion to electrical energy via this effect discovered by Tesla around 1895(?).

Like I said, very few people are working on this but it has even been proposed years ago by Professor Constantine Meyl. Those of us that read heavily haven't wasted much time on the brute force electrolyzers that seem to be a fad amongst the general tinkerers.  

[hurensohn]

One thing is sure, if you publically invent a free energy device, you'll commit suicide with 10 bullets in your head.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

This site is pretty good but the owner is a Jewish former Wallstreet investor. It seems like the "Chosen" are seeing this a potential cash cow:

http://my.opera.com/H2earth/blog/index. ... uel%20cell


Lord Kelvin's Water Dropper is always interesting:



http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/kelvin.html

"Kelvin's Thunderstorm"
Lord Kelvin's water-drop electrostatic generator
Bill Beaty, 1995

    NOTE: avoid using wood to support metal parts! See "debugging" notes at the end. See FURTHER INFO at end too.

It is possible to build a very simple high-voltage generator which has no moving parts and is powered by the energy of falling water. By dribbling water through some old soup cans, several thousand volts magically appear. The magic lies in the fact that water (as well as everything else!) is made of vast quantities of positive and negative electric charge in perfect balance. It's not too hard to cause an imbalance. Water normally has zero net electrical charge because it contains equal and opposite charges. "Kelvin's Thunderstorm" is a gravity-powered charge un-canceller.

Fig 1. WATER DROPLETS BEING ELECTRIFIED BY "INDUCTION"


THE BASIC THEORY

Even though water has no overall electric charge, it is full of movable electric charges (called ions). Half of the water's charges are positive and half are negative. It is not hard to separate these charges; simply hold an electrified object near the water. The electrified object will attract the "unlike" charges to the water's surface. It will also repel the "alike" charges away deeper into the water.

In the above diagram, the positive object attracts the water's negative ions and repels the positive ions. This draws an excess of negative ions into the tip of the water dripper, while repelling an equal amount of positive ions off to the other end of the dripper. When the water drop detaches from the tip of the dripper, an overall negative electric charge is still trapped in the droplet. The falling water droplet carries away negative charge, leaving the dripper slightly positive. If we catch the falling droplets in a container, the container will become negatively charged.

In the above diagram, negative water droplets will be continuously created forever as long as the water flows. However, this process does not exhaust the imbalanced charge on the positive object. Sounds like perpetual motion, eh? Actually no. The electrical energy is being created by the work that gravity does in pulling the negative droplet away from the grounded dripper, and away against the attraction of the positive object. The electrical attraction force from the positively-charged object keeps the tip of the dripper charged negatively, but the positively charged object does not supply energy. YOU supply the energy, since you LIFT the water to a height to fill the dripper. It's like the generator in a hydroelectric dam, but without the turbine or the spinning coils or magnets. The water itself becomes the moving parts of an electric generator.

(Note: the charge polarities can easily be reversed. If the above "object" is made negative, the droplets would come out positive.)
   
BUILDING A GENERATOR
If we can make a positively-charged object somehow, then we can make negative water droplets. But where can we get a positive object? If there was some way to CHANGE the negative charge on the water into a positive charge, then we could use the water to charge up it's own "positive object". We would then have a a self-sustaining generator. There's a simple way to do this: build TWO water-drop devices like the one in figure one! See the trick? The device in figure one uses a positive object to create negative water. It uses positive to create negative. If we build a second device, we could use the negative to create positive. We could hook the two devices in a loop. The first one would create an imbalance of negative charge, which could be fed to the second one which would create an imbalance of positive charge, which would be fed back to the first one again. It might sound crazy, but it really works.

We will build two of the drippers in Fig. 1, set them side by side, then collect the electrified water droplets from one side and use them to electrify the "charged object" on the other side, and vice versa. We'll cross-connect the lower and upper parts with wires. One side will have a positive "object" and will make negative droplets, while the other side will have a negative "object" and will make positive droplets. We'll also connect the drippers together so they remain neutral. Then we will have a self-sustaining electrical reaction.

How is it possible?

It is has been reported that certain specific types of bubble production are associated with effective
Cells. This in itself may give a valuable clue as to the cause of the energy. It is highly likely that the
Joe Cell utilises a principle known as Cavity Quantum Electrodynamics

However before we discuss Cavity QED, we first need to examine history.  In 1840, Lord Armstrong
observed that when steam escaped from boilers an electrical charge was produced. This
phenomenon was termed steam electricity. Faraday conducted extensive research into the
phenomenon at the time. That was that for about 120 years, then in 1969, interest in steam electricity
was renewed because of explosions caused by the ignition of vapors during the washing of oiler
tankers with steam jets. Steam electricity is supposedly explained by the bubbles nucleated in the
boiling of water droplets, behaving like resonant quantum electrodynamic (QED) cavities. During
bubble growth as the bubble cavity resonance coincides with vacuum ultraviolet frequencies, the
water molecules on the bubble walls dissociate by cavity QED into hydronium H3O+ and hydroxyl OH-
ions. Available hydronium ions are repulsed from the positive charged bubble surface and tend to the
center of the bubble forming a positive charged vapor; whereas, the available hydroxyl ions are
attracted to the bubble surface. Bursting of the bubbles at the surface of the droplet produces
positive charge steam and negative charged droplets. Scientists at the time figured out that the
explosions only occurred when pure water was used in the steam jets. By adding a little olive oil to
the water, they altered the PH and the steam could no longer hold a charge, so the explosions
stopped occurring. In theory, if it's good enough for blowing up ships, it should be good enough for
running an engine. Steam electrification caused by the separation of hydronium and hydroxyl ions in
bubbles is commonly observed in atmospheric electricity, thundercloud electrification, waterfall
electricity and the Leidenfrost phenomenon.

When two opposing charges build in a Joe Cell, H30+  is produced at the cathode and OH-  is
produced at the anode. Coincidence? Probably not. Because electrons remain trapped within the
static field of the anode, any vapour that is drawn into the engine will have an excess of H+ atoms,
creating a powerful space charge within the cylinder. Add a stream of electrons from the spark plug
and you get a powerful electrically induced discharge. The same type of effect that was blowing up
ships in 1969. While it may be hard for some to comprehend, what Joe and Peter had actually
discovered was a way to power a car on lightning. Exactly the same powerful energy force you see
exhibited by nature during a thunderstorm. The Joe Cell does not defy any laws of physics. It simply
harnesses them with great efficiency.

Cavity QED is a scientific phenomenon that deals with the behavior of excited atoms within a metallic /
dielectric space. Cavity QED was traditionally viewed as a problem in many industries.  Besides being
responsible for blowing up ships, it has also been linked with exploding gas pipelines and the rapid
destruction of ship propellers. Recently however, it has been put to good use in a number of
applications, the most significant being commercial water purification devices - cavitation based
purification systems are effective in removing a large range of organic and inorganic impurities from
water. It is no coincidence the Joe Cell can also be used as a water purification device.

Cavity QED can produce a loud sonic boom, caused by bubbles collapsing faster than the speed of
sound. Generally speaking cavitation is implosion on a microscopic level. There are in fact a number
of different forms of cavitation. Some forms of cavitation can actually produce light - a phenomenon
known as sonoluminesence.
   
      
   
Cavitation events can create very hot plasmas. The term plasma refers to a system of charged
particles large enough to behave as one. A plasma can be formed by high temperature, or by
application of an electric field, such as that provided by the coil and spark plugs of the engine . Even
a partially ionized gas in which as little as 1% of the particles are ionized can form the characteristics
of a plasma.

During the cavitation event inside the cylinder, the plasma collapses on itself. This implosion stoke
generating heat in the process. This ball of hot electrical energy superheats the air in the cylinder.
The superheated air expands rapidly driving the piston down. The net result of the process is a large
amount of energy produced, much more than would be possible through burning conventional fossil
fuels. Cavitation helps to explain the advanced timing observed in Joe Cell powered engines.

One of the popular misconceptions about Joe Cells has always been related to the concept of
implosion. A lot of people seem to believe that gases do not implode, therefore what is occurring
within the Joe Cell has to be from some kind of mysterious as yet unidentified form of energy. The
reality is that plasmas, unlike pure gases, can and do implode. They can implode because strictly
speaking they are not a gas. Plasma's are often referred to as the fourth state of matter because they
don't always behave like gases, even though there are similarities. Plasma's implode all the time in
nature and physicists regularly create them in labs. If you do a goggle search for "plasma implosion"
you'll find hundreds of thousands of reference to this phenomenon. A large body of this research
relates to the phenomenon Nuclear Fusion experiements.

An interesting patent:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/53599 ... ption.html
US Patent 5359966 - Energy converter using imploding plasma vortex heating
US Patent Issued on November 1, 1994
Estimated Patent Expiration Date: Icon_subject June 10, 2012

BACKGROUND AND PRIOR ART

The invention relates to a method and apparatus for converting energy through combustion of fuel by means of so-called sustained imploding vortex technology in the form of a super-heated, high velocity rotating gas mass. It was discovered by applicant that when such a system is properly understood and utilized it provides a unique method of maximizing the conversion efficiency of energy from various fuels in forms of gas, liquid, powders and even in solid form. According to the invention the fuel is preheated to very high temperature so as to make it chemically and molecularly highly active to enclose the preheated fuel so that it forms an insulated ionizing energy ball, containing large numbers of free electrons. From observation on actual prototype tests, the electrons are believed to attach themselves to the activated fuel molecules, causing the fuel to behave as an ionized plasma within a combustion chamber. The plasma form of the gas greatly increases the combustion efficiency which further increases the temperature of the plasma. Diesel oil that normally burns at 1200° F. in conventional systems has been measured at a combustion temperature in excess of 2400° F. in a representative prototype of the invention. The flow patterns within the plasma vortex are of significant importance in the operation of the system in that they create and sustain an implosion within the combustion chamber and a heat collection chamber connected thereto. It is accordingly a primary object of the invention to maximize thermal combustion efficiency by means of imploding vortex technology.

The sustained imploding vortex mentioned above is defined as a system of stratified gas plasma wherein the heavier particles of the gas masses become progressively stratified in parallel with the outer perimeter of the vortex and the lighter particles of the gas masses become progressively stratified around the central core of the vortex. Rotating vortices of gas plasma form a gravitational gradient causing the heavier gas particles to drift to the outer perimeter and the lighter particles to the central core. It is also demonstrable that the temperature of the center of the vortex is relatively cool when compared with the temperature at its periphery. The invention utilizes all of the characteristics of the imploding vortex technology to its advantage so as to increase the combustion efficiency and to greatly reduce and/or eliminate polluting emissions commonly associated with combustion of hydrocarbon and other fuels.

The invention as disclosed can be used for heating an industrial boiler, a domestic or commercial hot water heater, or any heating system using liquid or air or other gas as a heat transfer medium. The system is also in a further development capable of generating electrical current by the known principles of Magneto Hydrodynamics.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/53599 ... ption.html

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

http://www.visi.com/~darus/hilsch/

Get a Plasma system hooked up to a Vortex Tube or Windhexe machine and we are off to the Free-Energy races....  

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD ... tTRDoc.pdf

THE "HILSCH" VORTEX TUBE

With nothing more than a few pieces of plumbing and a source of compressed air, you can build a remarkably simple device for attaining moderately low temperatures. It separates high-energy molecules from those of low energy. George O. Smith, an engineer of Rumson, N. I., discusses its theory and construction

The 19th century British physicist James Clerk Maxwell made many deep contributions to physics, and among the most significant was his law of random distribution. Considering. the case of a closed box containing a gas, Maxwell started off by saying that the temperature of the gas was due to the motion of the individual gas molecules within the box. But since the box was standing still, it stood to reason that the summation of the velocity and direction of the individual gas molecules must come to zero.

In essence Maxwell's law of random distribution says that for every gas molecule headed east at 20 miles per hour, there must be another headed west at the same speed. Furthermore, if the heat of the gas indicates that the average velocity of the molecules is 20 miles per hour, the number of molecules moving slower than this speed must be equaled by the number of molecules moving faster.

After a serious analysis of the consequences of his law, Maxwell permitted himself a touch of humor. He suggested that there was a statistical probability that; at some time in the future, all the molecules in a box of gas or a glass of hot water might be moving in the same direction. This would cause the water to rise out of the glass. Next Maxwell suggested that a system of drawing both hot and cold water out of a single pipe might be devised if we could capture a small demon and train him to open and close a tiny valve. The demon would open the valve only when a fast molecule approached it, and close the valve against slow molecules. The water coming out of the valve would thus be hot. To produce a stream of cold water the demon would open the valve only for slow molecules.

Maxwell's demon would circumvent the law of thermodynamics which says in essence: "You can't get something for nothing." That is to say, one cannot separate cold water from hot without doing work. Thus when physicists heard that the Germans had developed a device which could achieve low temperatures by utilizing Maxwell's demon, they were intrigued, though obviously skeptical. One physicist investigated the matter at first hand for the U. S. Navy. He discovered that the device was most ingenious, though not quite as miraculous as had been rumored.

It consists of a T-shaped assembly of pipe joined by a novel fitting, as depicted in Figure 234. when compressed air is admitted to the "leg" of the T, hot air comes out of one arm of the T and cold air out of the other arm! Obviously, however, work must be done to compress the air.

The origin of the device is obscure. The principle is said to have been discovered by a Frenchman who left some early experimental models in the path of the German Army when France was occupied. These were turned over to a German physicist named Rudolf Hilsch, who was working on low temperature refrigerating devices for the German war effort. Hilsch made some improvements on the Frenchman's design, but found that it was no more efficient than conventional methods of refrigeration in achieving fairly low temperatures. Subsequently the device became known as the Hilsch tube.

The Hilsch tube may be constructed from a pair of modified nuts and associated parts as shown in Figure 235. The horizontal arm of the T-shaped fitting contains a specially machined piece, the outside of which fits inside the arm. The inside of the piece, however, has a cross section which is spiral with respect to the outside. In the "step" of the spiral is a small opening which is connected to the leg of the T Thus air admitted to the leg comes out of the opening and spins around the one-turn spiral. The "hot" pipe is about 14 inches long and has an inside diameter of half an inch. The far end of this pipe is fitted with a stopcock which can be used to control the pressure in the system [see Fig. 236].

The "cold" pipe is about four inches long and also has an inside diameter of half an inch. The end of the pipe which butts up against the spiral piece is fitted with a washer, the central hole of which is about a quarter of an inch in diameter. Washers with larger or smaller holes can also be inserted to adjust the system.

Three factors determine the performance of the Hilsch tube; the setting of the stopcock, the pressure at which air is admitted to the nozzle, and the size of the hole in the washer. For each value of air pressure and washer opening there is a setting of the stopcock which results in a maximum difference in the temperature of the hot and cold pipes [see Fig. 237].

When the device is properly adjusted, the hot pipe will deliver air at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit and the cold pipe air at about -70 degrees (a temperature substantially below the freezing point of mercury and approaching that of "dry ice"). When the tube is adjusted for maximum temperature on the hot side, air is delivered at about 350 degrees F. It must be mentioned, however, that few amateurs have succeeded in achieving these performance extremes. Most report minimums on the order of -10 degrees and maximums of about + 140 on the first try. Despite its impressive performance, the efficiency of the Hilsch tube leaves much to be desired. Indeed, there is still disagreement as to how it works. According to one explanation, the compressed air shoots around the spiral and forms a high-velocity vortex of air. Molecules of air at the outside of the vortex are slowed by friction with the wall of the spiral. Because these slow-moving molecules are subject to the rules of centrifugal force, they tend to fall toward the center of the vortex. The fast-moving molecules just inside the outer layer of the vortex transfer some of their energy to this layer by bombarding some of its slow-moving molecules and speeding them up. The net result of this process is the accumulation of slow-moving, low-energy molecules in the center of the whirling mass, and of high-energy, fast-moving molecules around the outside. In the thermodynamics of gases the terms "high energy" and "high velocity" mean "high temperature." So the vortex consists of a core of cold air surrounded by a rim of hot air.

The difference between the temperature of the core and that of the rim is increased by a secondary effect which takes advantage of the fact that the temperature of a given quantity of gas at a given level of thermal energy is higher when the gas is confined in a small space than in a large one; accordingly when gas is allowed to expand, its temperature drops. In the case of the Hilsch tube the action of centrifugal force compresses the hot rim of gas into a compact mass which can escape only by flowing along the inner wall of the "hot" pipe in a compressed state, because its flow into the cold tube is blocked by the rim of the washer.

The amount of the compression is determined by the adjustment of the stopcock at the end of the hot pipe. In contrast, the relatively cold inner core of the vortex, which is also considerably above atmospheric pressure, flows through the hole in the washer and drops to still lower temperature as it expands to atmospheric pressure obtaining inside the cold pipe.

Apparently the inefficiency of the Hilsch tube as a refrigerating device has barred its commercial application. Nonetheless amateurs who would like to have a means of attaining relatively low temperatures, and who do not have access to a supply of dry ice, may find the tube useful. when properly made it will deliver a blast of air 20 times colder than air which has been chilled by permitting it simply to expand through a Venturi tube from a high-pressure source. Thus the Hilsch tube could be used to quick- freeze tissues for microscopy, or to chill photomultiplier tubes. But quite apart from the tube's potential application, what could be more fun than to trap Maxwell's demon and make him explain in detail how he manages to blow hot and cold at the same time?

Incidentally, this is not a project for the person who goes in for commercially made apparatus. So far as I can discover Hilsch tubes are not to be found on the market. You must make your own. Nor is it a project for the experimenter who makes a speciality of building apparatus from detailed specifications and drawings. The dimensions shown in the accompanying figures are only approximate. Certainly they are not optimum values. But if you enjoy exploration, the device poses many questions. What would be the effect, for example, of substituting a divergent nozzle for the straight one used by Hilsch? Why not create the vortex by impeller vanes, such as those employed in the stator of turbines? Would a spiral chamber in the shape of a torus improve the efficiency? What ratio should the diameter of the pipes bear to the vortex chamber and to each other? Why not make the spiral of plastic, or even plastic wood? One can also imagine a spiral bent of a strip of brass and soldered into a conventional pipe coupling. Doubtless other and far more clever alternatives will occur to the dyed-in-the-wool tinkerer.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

This kind of get's me thinking of a way to combine a Joe Cell and Hirsch Tube?  The Hirsch Tube could greatly accelerate the disassociation of the ions by the vortex... perhaps with tremendous OH- ions created?

Steam electricity is supposedly explained by the bubbles nucleated in the
boiling of water droplets, behaving like resonant quantum electrodynamic (QED) cavities. During
bubble growth as the bubble cavity resonance coincides with vacuum ultraviolet frequencies, the
water molecules on the bubble walls dissociate by cavity QED into hydronium H3O+ and hydroxyl OH-
ions

Remember, you heard this idea here first...    So if you get a patent, sign me up as well.

[jai_mann]

This kind of get's me thinking of a way to combine a Joe Cell and Hirsch Tube?  The Hirsch Tube could greatly accelerate the disassociation of the ions by the vortex... perhaps with tremendous OH- ions created?

Steam electricity is supposedly explained by the bubbles nucleated in the
boiling of water droplets, behaving like resonant quantum electrodynamic (QED) cavities. During
bubble growth as the bubble cavity resonance coincides with vacuum ultraviolet frequencies, the
water molecules on the bubble walls dissociate by cavity QED into hydronium H3O+ and hydroxyl OH-
ions

Remember, you heard this idea here first...    So if you get a patent, sign me up as well.

I have yet to see a single Joe cell powering any thing. If you have some sources demonstrating this I wouldn't mind seeing it. I have on the other hand seen and posted on here demonstrations of Tesla's high frequency current hairpin circuit. Has any one even checked out the links? The guy demonstrating it even touches the portion of the circuit which is solely energized by longitudinal waves/radiant energy (there's at least three video replications on youtube last i checked months ago..). He puts a lit bulb under water and he touches the bare leads with his hands. The circuit is powered by a 11KV gas igniter which would kill any one touching the portion of the circuit prior to the energy transformation stage. Do a youtube search for the replications of Tesla's work.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXLnAtBqMzY

Pretty cool and recent vid on the Tesla "Hairpin" Circuit...