Workhorse rifle 'failing US troops in Afghanistan'

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Workhorse rifle 'failing US troops in Afghanistan'

By Julius Cavendish In Kabul

Saturday, 22 May 2010

The US military thinks it may have got one of the basics wrong: its guns are not good enough. A US Army study found that the M-4 rifle, the workhorse weapon of America's troops, is ineffective at ranges of more then 300m because bullets lose the velocity necessary to kill an enemy.

Although the dense vegetation and warrens of mud-packed houses in parts of southern Afghanistan lend themselves to close-range fighting, there are also many battles where Taliban fighters make use of the heavier calibre of their AK-47s to ambush Nato and Afghan soldiers from afar.

The AK-47's 7.62 mm round is effective at more than 400m. And the AK-47 is extremely durable, as are most of the other marks of Kalashnikov weapons. "You can dip it in the river, drop it in sand but it still works," an Afghan security contractor said.

In comparison, the M-4 fires a lighter 5.56mm round. "The 5.56mm calibre is more lethal since it can put more rounds on target," Colonel Douglas Tamilio, a programme manager at the US Army's centre for small arms development, told the Associated Press. "But at 500m to 600m the round doesn't have stopping power."

Nato sources said the alliance's soldiers use the M-4 "because it's a close-in weapon, since we anticipate house-to-house fighting in many situations". The M-4 worked well in Iraq, where much of the fighting was close-quarter battles in cities such as Ramadi and Fallujah. But in Afghanistan, some Taliban fighters will open fire at ranges of close to a kilometre. Taliban snipers held up US Marines and their Afghan comrades during Nato's operation to clear the farmlands of Marjah, in central Helmand, this year.

Among the solutions the US Army is proposing, is that nine soldiers in each infantry company carry the new M-110 sniper rifle, which fires a 7.62 mm and is accurate to more than 800m. Infantry companies already include sharpshooters with M-14s, and weapons teams carrying grenade-launchers and light machine-guns.

Another idea is to design a rifle with a heavier calibre than the M-4, trading in some of its high rate of fire for greater range. But some experts argue that the 5.56mm round is maligned by the US Army report. Instead, they say that the M-4's failings are the result of its shorterbarrel, which makes it easier for soldiers to wield as they scramble in and out of vehicles. The M-4 is a compacted version of the M-16 rifle, a more cumbersome weapon. "Unfortunately, weapon engineers shortened the M-16's barrel to irrational lengths," Martin Fackler, a ballistics expert, said. The British Army uses the 5.56mm SA-80, backed by the 7.62mm "gimpy", the general purpose machine-gun with a high rate of lethal fire.

But in the labyrinth of vineyards and orchards in Kandahar province, where much of this summer's fighting is expected, range is unlikely to be an issue. The dense vegetation lets insurgents get within 200m before opening up on Nato troops, well within the M-4's range.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 79987.html

[Leopoldthe1st]

heh, good find. I was told that with my swiss issued fass90 that the 5.56mm 'nato' round that it uses was conceived with the intention to not kill. That the goal was to wound an enemy, wait for the individual to be rescued, then wound the rescuers and so on... when in all practicality the junky old AK 7.62 proves more effective on the battle field. I also found that in moderate wind, the 5.56 is barely accurate at 300m where 7.62 rounds are..

[Anonymous]

Not a big fan of the M4. It has a purpose but its just not a man stopper round.  The AR format in 5.56 is fine I guess at shorter distances when you have a squad containing a SAW gunner and DMR with 7.62x51 but for a guy or family defending themselves the 5.56 is a no go.

I like some aspects of the M4, compact, light etc. but its not a drag through the mud rifle. Sure you can carry more rounds but it takes more rounds to put a target down.  A wounded man can still do a lot of damage to you if the wounds are not vital organ or head shots. Its like knife fighting, most people think stab a guy once and its done. Guess again. You stab until the guy doesn't get up or your gonna get seriously hurt. Guns are not all that different.

Many compare the AK to the AR. Both have about the same effective range of about 300m. The AR is undoubtedly more accurate but after 300 yards doesn't hit hard enough, esp. if you have to shoot through an obstacle like a vehicle, tree or wall. Also, at that distance wind starts to become a big factor on a bullet that light.  The 5.56/.223 was designed as a varmint round for feck sake. The US should have stuck with the M14 (they should not have been at war in the first place but thats another story). The AK starts to seriously lose its accuracy (which is not great to begin with) by 300 yards but hits much harder.

IF I had to choose it would be the AR. Very tough weapon. Heck, an SKS would be a better choice for a family defending itself than an AR imo. Might be better in Iraq as well but again, they should not be there in the first place killing so many civilians. Beyond sick.

ZS

[Doc Holliday]

The AR-15 is still a good weapon for urban or close quarters combat, backed by a good old .45Auto.  But I also think that in cases of fighting further distances like across ridges, above deep valleys, or when having to shoot through a wall or vehicle, there is nothing like an M1 Garrand with 150gr Armor piercing rounds.  I have an M1, and it's like a hand held destroyer,
capable of doing plenty of damage to just about anything, including penetrating an 8cyl engine block with ease. It is also known as an anti-tank rifle back in WWII.

I'm also a firm believer in the .45 cal, whether it would be an acp, xtra power long colt, or the good old 45-70 Government round. There is nothing like a heavy piece of lead backed by a good charge!

 

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

I agree with you there Doc on the M1.  A great rifle with a great feel...  :up:

Some interesting notes about the "ping" it gives.



------

The rifle's ability to rapidly fire powerful .30-06 rifle ammunition also proved to be of considerable advantage in combat. In China, Japanese banzai charges had previously met with frequent success against poorly-trained Chinese soldiers armed with bolt-action rifles. Armed with the M1, US infantrymen were able to sustain a much higher rate of fire than their Chinese counterparts. In the short-range jungle fighting, where opposing forces sometimes met each other in column formation on a narrow path, the penetration of the powerful .30-06 M2 cartridge enabled a single U.S. infantryman to kill up to three Japanese soldiers with a single round.[26]

Ejection of an empty clip created a distinctive metallic "pinging" sound.[27] In World War II, reports arose in which German and Japanese infantry were making use of this noise in combat to alert them to an empty M1 rifle in order to 'get the drop' on their American enemies. The information was taken seriously enough that U.S. Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground began experiments with clips made of various plastics in order to soften the sound, though no improved clips were ever adopted.[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand

The M1 Garand was one of the first self-loading rifles to use stainless steel for its gas cylinder, in an effort to prevent corrosion. As the stainless metal could not be parkerized, these gas cylinders were given a stove-blackening that frequently wore off in use. Unless the cylinder could be quickly repainted, the resultant gleaming muzzle could make the M1 Garand and its user more visible to the enemy in combat.[26] The M1 Garand was designed for simple assembly and disassembly to facilitate field maintenance. It can be field stripped (broken down) without tools.[29]

Also, I think the Saiga .308 is a decent semi-auto replacement with decent MOA for the price if you can't step up to an M1. It's the modern M1 replacement IMHO. And you can even start to see them for under $500 in places!  :shock:  That's awesome for a semi-.308.  Of course the ammo cost can hurt...

[Doc Holliday]

I agree with you there Doc on the M1.  A great rifle with a great feel...  :up:

Some interesting notes about the "ping" it gives.



------

The rifle's ability to rapidly fire powerful .30-06 rifle ammunition also proved to be of considerable advantage in combat. In China, Japanese banzai charges had previously met with frequent success against poorly-trained Chinese soldiers armed with bolt-action rifles. Armed with the M1, US infantrymen were able to sustain a much higher rate of fire than their Chinese counterparts. In the short-range jungle fighting, where opposing forces sometimes met each other in column formation on a narrow path, the penetration of the powerful .30-06 M2 cartridge enabled a single U.S. infantryman to kill up to three Japanese soldiers with a single round.[26]

Ejection of an empty clip created a distinctive metallic "pinging" sound.[27] In World War II, reports arose in which German and Japanese infantry were making use of this noise in combat to alert them to an empty M1 rifle in order to 'get the drop' on their American enemies. The information was taken seriously enough that U.S. Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground began experiments with clips made of various plastics in order to soften the sound, though no improved clips were ever adopted.[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand

The M1 Garand was one of the first self-loading rifles to use stainless steel for its gas cylinder, in an effort to prevent corrosion. As the stainless metal could not be parkerized, these gas cylinders were given a stove-blackening that frequently wore off in use. Unless the cylinder could be quickly repainted, the resultant gleaming muzzle could make the M1 Garand and its user more visible to the enemy in combat.[26] The M1 Garand was designed for simple assembly and disassembly to facilitate field maintenance. It can be field stripped (broken down) without tools.[29]

Also, I think the Saiga .308 is a decent semi-auto replacement with decent MOA for the price if you can't step up to an M1. It's the modern M1 replacement IMHO. And you can even start to see them for under $500 in places!  :shock:  That's awesome for a semi-.308.  Of course the ammo cost can hurt...

When the ping alerts the enemy, it's time to pull the pin on a grenade, then pull out the old .45 with the other hand!

Agree on the .308, great round!