.308 or a .223? A difficult question....

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

For the life of the rifle and current conditions... which is the better pick?  I'm leaning towards an Armalite .308 AR-10AC, FAL or CETME.

Looking for something more robust... and deer friendly...

http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/tac ... _1668.html

 :up:

[MikeWB]

AR-10 is quite expenisive, .308 is fairly expensive, kicks a lot more and it's heavy to lug around. Price and availability could be an issue because it's good to stock up at least 5K rounds of whatever you're shooting. I'd look into Remington 700 in .308 instead of AR-10... much more precise for hunting and cheaper. Rem700 + AK-47 or AR-15 is a good combo for WROL. I'd also invest into a good shotgun, say Rem870, and a handgun.

PS: .223 kills a deer just fine... laws are behind the times. I think the laws's there to prevent fools from hunting deer with .22.  :lol:

[Wimpy]

For the life of the rifle and current conditions... which is the better pick?  I'm leaning towards an Armalite .308 AR-10AC, FAL or CETME.

Looking for something more robust... and deer friendly...

http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/tac ... _1668.html

 :up:

If this Armalite FAL is anything like the FN-LAR (Springfield Armory, I believe), it would be a pleasure shooting.  These newer mil style 308's recoil straight back with little to no barrel rise, particularly with the heavy match barrel.  In other words one could quickly & easily unload all twenty rounds without fear of missing your target.  Great for moving targets and with much more firepower than a .223.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

You know MikeWB and Wimpy, I've been looking at the Remington 700(p) tactical , even used since the prices are excellent.  Good prices all around. The scope question comes in to the question. I'm thinking gun first, scope later but it often is harder at that point to decide.  

The Model 10 has also gotten interesting. I'm looking at that too.  I'm in for something just over a $1000 with longer range.  I've got shotguns, .223, 7.62x39 but now want to get into the longer ranges.   The 700 for the price is pretty good. I'm looking for gear to dress it up with as well and the AR-10s, look pretty sweet.   :think:

This Browning 270 also has my eye...

http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/bro ... 26134.html

[Wimpy]

Quite familiar with the Browning BAR but in 30-06, outfitted w/ a Leopold.  The BAR's claim to fame is accuracy comparable to a fine bolt action.

[jai_mann]

For the life of the rifle and current conditions... which is the better pick?  I'm leaning towards an Armalite .308 AR-10AC, FAL or CETME.

Looking for something more robust... and deer friendly...

http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/tac ... _1668.html

 :up:

Stick with the .30 caliber. It's got more distance and knock down power. If you don't have a 10/22 rifle, GET ONE. The cheapest .30 cal ammo I know of is for the Mosin-Nagant rifle. You can get 440 rounds for about $85. The 10/22 (.22LR) has 500 rounds for ~16-19 bucks. The 10/22 is perfect for training. The .223 or .30 cal is much more expensive for training.

I can't speak to the rifles you're asking about, but I can speak to the caliber.

[jai_mann]

You know MikeWB and Wimpy, I've been looking at the Remington 700(p) tactical , even used since the prices are excellent.  Good prices all around. The scope question comes in to the question. I'm thinking gun first, scope later but it often is harder at that point to decide.  

After getting a 10/22 I started looking into the longer range guns too. I actually spent a good bit of time looking into them and the Remington 700 was one I really thought about getting. My only beef with it was the bolt. That's great for hunting and the accuracy is always going to be better than a semi-auto, but if you need a big gun for a potential war down the road a semi-auto is a better choice imho. I settled on an M1 garand. You can reach out to 400 yards easily with practice on this gun. There's no stinking plastic and it proved itself for decades. You can hunt just as easily with it. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll fall in love with one if you decide to get one. The civilian marksmanship program (CMP) website lists them and prices.

The discovery channel has tried to downplay this gun with propaganda by making an issue out of the noise the clip makes when it ejects. It's a total superficial, nonsense argument.

[jai_mann]

One more thing, you can drastically cut the cost for ammunition by reloading. You can literally cut it in half for a caliber like .30-06. You can also improve upon the accuracy due to consistency between loads.

[o1OpTiMuS1o]

Mosin-Nagant 91/30 Hex Receiver Laminated Stock, 7.62x54R
Price: $139.95
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php ... ts_id/3919




7.62x54R Comm-Bloc Light Ball FMJ ammo, steel case, 440 rd tins.

7.62x54R Comm-bloc ammo, steel case, Light Ball 148 grain FMJ bullet, with LPS steel core. Comes in sealed 440 round tin. 2 tins may come in a cardboard box or wood crate depending on supply. Berdan primed and corrosive. Most likely Russian production.

Price: $84.92
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php ... ts_id/4431

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

I looked at jgsales.org o1OpTiMuS1o  but after looking around I found something a little disturbing... but they have great prices. Must be the underground J-Tribe gun sales networks from Russia and Eastern Europe...  :down:

I heard Aaron Zellman of the JPFO on the radio the other day and went to his website to find out more(www.jpfo.org). On the site I discovered a really interesting section called "Ask the Rabbi". It is a write in question and answer forum for 2nd Amendment and culture related questions directed to Rabbi R. Mermelstein. There is a wealth of info on the site: the url is www.jpfo.org/askrabbi/

    -- Rags (www.jfpo.org/askrabbi.htm

    -- Rags (www.jpfo.org/askrabbi.htm

    -- Rags (bisquit@here.com), July 15, 2001.

    You have the "p" and "f" transposed in the URL on your second post. The correct address is http://www.jpfo.org/askrabbi.htm

[Fester]

Ammo question.  Is there any advantage in owning a particular caliber in terms of availability of ammo?  The garande I'm guessing is a versatile, multi-purpose option.  Are there major issues in storing ammo (besides avoiding unintentional combustion)?  How long does it keep?  What recommendations (besides as much as possible) regarding quantity?

Don't own anything and not sure I've got the stomach for warfare, but feel like an idiot ignoring the boyscouts' dictum.  Thanks.

[Wimpy]

WTF

[Wimpy]

WTF

[Wimpy]

Just a quick rule of thumb Fester.

1)   Purchase at least 1000 Rounds of Ammunition for each weapon you own.

2)   I know it's cheaper to buy the 7.62 X 39 and the 7.62 X 54 ammo and weapons but BEWARE of "Corrosive" Ammunition (don't know, ask).  Using corrosive ammo requires rather immediate gun cleaning after firing.  Sometimes that's not always feasible or possible and when left in the barrel and on mechanisms it will cause corrosion.

3)   Jai_Mann mentioned getting a .22 cal (as a secondary weapon) and I fully agree.  .22 Ammo is cheap, small and popular.  Use it for barter, use it for hunting small game, and use it for added firepower.  More people are homicided each year with the .22 cal than any other cartridge.  Keep 2,000 to 5,000 rounds on hand; its cheap.

4)   Purchasing ammo in quantities is less painful financially if stretched out over time.

5)   My choice was the 30-06 cartridge for various reasons.  .308 (7.62 NATO) is quite suitable (and obtainable) and so is .223 (relatively cheap and sporadically abundant).

6)  Get a hand gun 9mm or .45 cal.  Ammo is available and it allows you to have a back-up while reloading or other uses.  If you have a wife get her a revolver and tell her to point and keep pulling the trigger.

[Fester]

Thanks, Wimpy.

[o1OpTiMuS1o]

I looked at jgsales.org o1OpTiMuS1o  but after looking around I found something a little disturbing... but they have great prices. Must be the underground J-Tribe gun sales networks from Russia and Eastern Europe...  :down:

I heard Aaron Zellman of the JPFO on the radio the other day and went to his website to find out more(http://www.jpfo.org). On the site I discovered a really interesting section called "Ask the Rabbi". It is a write in question and answer forum for 2nd Amendment and culture related questions directed to Rabbi R. Mermelstein. There is a wealth of info on the site: the url is http://www.jpfo.org/askrabbi/

    -- Rags (http://www.jfpo.org/askrabbi.htm

    -- Rags (http://www.jpfo.org/askrabbi.htm

    -- Rags (bisquit@here.com), July 15, 2001.

    You have the "p" and "f" transposed in the URL on your second post. The correct address is http://www.jpfo.org/askrabbi.htm

was just the first site i pulled up when searching for them either way the gun itself would be a good cheap backup for low budget people im sure their available on USA suppliers sites good researching  :up:

[Wimpy]

Well, I finally broke down and purchased a Windham Weapons M4/M16 (.223).  My reasoning is twofold, I didn't want to support Freedom Arms-Cerebus Financial Group-because they're a pile of scamming jew pricks (please read the NY Times Article and a Review from the Windham Weaponry website) and I wanted a light, accurate, well designed weapon and affordable ammo.  I look forward to picking it up and going through a few boxes of ammo.  The only problem now is the scope I want costs nearly twice that of the weapon!--Wimpy




Cerbus (Feinberg) bankrupted Chrysler and we paid for it.--(Wimpy)
Feinberg, a Princeton graduate who began his Wall Street career at Drexel Burnham Lambert, the junk bond powerhouse of Michael Milken fame, got into private equity in 1992.  "Another jew scammer.............(Wimpy)"
 
 

Mystery company buying up U.S. gun manufacturers.

Natasha Singer, New York Times

Sunday, December 4, 2011


Gretchen Ertl / The New York Times

Randy Miller examines a Remington shotgun with salesman Bob Cabral at Cabela's sporting goods store in Scarborough, Maine.

Images
 
 
Scarborough, Maine --

Lined up in a gun rack beneath mounted deer heads is a Bushmaster Carbon 15, a matte-black semiautomatic rifle that looks as if it belongs to a SWAT team. On another rack rests a Teflon-coated Prairie Panther from DPMS Firearms, a supplier to the U.S. Border Patrol and security agencies in Iraq. On a third is a Remington 750 Woodsmaster, a popular hunting rifle.

The variety of rifles and shotguns on sale here at Cabela's, the national sporting goods chain, is a testament to America's enduring gun culture. But, to a surprising degree, it is also a testament to something else: Wall Street deal-making.

In recent years, many top-selling brands - including the 195-year-old Remington Arms, as well as Bushmaster Firearms and DPMS, leading makers of military-style semiautomatics - have quietly passed into the hands of a single private company. It is called the Freedom Group - and it is the most powerful and mysterious force in the U.S. commercial gun industry today.

Never heard of it?

You're not alone. Even within gun circles, the Freedom Group is something of an enigma. Its rise has been so swift that it has become the subject of wild speculation and grassy-knoll conspiracy theories. In the realm of consumer rifles and shotguns - long guns, in the trade - it is unrivaled in its size and reach. By its own count, the Freedom Group sold 1.2 million long guns and 2.6 billion rounds of ammunition in the 12 months ended March 2010, the most recent year for which figures are publicly available.

Behind this giant is Cerberus Capital Management, the private investment company that first came to widespread attention when it acquired Chrysler in 2007. (Chrysler later had to be rescued by taxpayers). With far less fanfare, Cerberus, through the Freedom Group, has been buying big names in guns and ammo.

From its headquarters in Manhattan, Cerberus has assembled a remarkable arsenal. It began with Bushmaster, which until recently was based here in Maine. Unlike military counterparts like automatic M-16s, rifles like those from Bushmaster don't spray bullets with one trigger pull. But, with gas-powered mechanisms, semiautomatics can fire rapid follow-up shots as fast as the trigger can be squeezed. They are often called "black guns" because of their color. The police tied a Bushmaster XM15 rifle to shootings in the Washington sniper case in 2002.

After Bushmaster, the Freedom Group moved in on Remington, which traces its history to the days of flintlocks and today is supplying M24 sniper rifles to the government of Afghanistan and making handguns for the first time in decades. The group has also acquired Marlin Firearms, which turned out a special model for Annie Oakley, as well as Dakota Arms, a maker of high-end big-game rifles. It has bought DPMS Firearms, another maker of semiautomatic, military-style rifles, as well as manufacturers of ammunition and tactical clothing.

"We believe our scale and product breadth are unmatched within the industry," the Freedom Group said in a filing last year with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Some gun enthusiasts have claimed that the power behind the company is actually George Soros, the hedge-fund billionaire and liberal activist. Soros, these people have warned, is buying U.S. gun companies so he can dismantle the industry, Second Amendment be damned.

The chatter grew so loud that the National Rifle Association issued a statement in October denying the rumors.

"NRA has had contact with officials from Cerberus and Freedom Group for some time," the NRA assured its members. "The owners and investors involved are strong supporters of the Second Amendment and are avid hunters and shooters."

Soros isn't behind the Freedom Group, but, ultimately, another financier is: Stephen Feinberg, the chief executive of Cerberus.

Cerberus is part of one of the signature Wall Street businesses of the past decade: private equity. Buyout kings like Feinberg, 51, try to acquire undervalued companies, often with borrowed money, fix them up and either take them public or sell at a profit to someone else.

Before the financial crisis of 2008, scores of well-known U.S. companies, from Chrysler down, passed into the hands of private-equity firms. For the financiers, the rewards were often enormous. But some companies that they acquired later ran into trouble, in part because they were burdened with debt from the takeovers.

 That year, he and William Richter founded Cerberus, which takes its name from the three-headed dog in Greek mythology that guards the gates of Hades.

Today, Feinberg presides over a private empire that rivals some of the mightiest public companies in the land. Cerberus manages more than $20 billion in capital. Together, the companies it owns generate annual revenue of about $40 billion - more than either Amazon or Coca-Cola last year.

Why Cerberus went after gun companies isn't clear. Many private investment firms shy away from such industries to avoid scaring off big investors like pension funds.

Yet, in many ways, the move is classic Cerberus. Feinberg has a history of investing in companies that other people may not want, but that Cerberus believes it can turn around. When Cerberus embarked on its acquisition spree in guns, it essentially had the field to itself.

"There's much less competition for buying these companies," says Steven N. Kaplan, a professor at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and a private equity expert. "They must have decided there is an opportunity to make money by investing in the firearms industry and trying to build a big company."

Whatever the reason, Cerberus, through the Freedom Group, is now a major player.

It has sold weapons to the governments of Afghanistan, Thailand, Mexico and Malaysia, among others, and obtained new business from the U.S. Army, including a contract worth up to $28.2 million to upgrade the M24 sniper weapon system.

Cerberus brings connections to the table. The longtime chairman of its global investments group is Dan Quayle, the former vice president. The Freedom Group, meantime, has added two retired generals to its board. One is George Joulwan, who retired from the Army after serving as Supreme Allied Commander of Europe. The other is Michael Hagee, formerly commandant of the Marine Corps.

Jessica Kallam, a spokeswoman at the Freedom Group, said executives there declined to comment for this article. Timothy Price, a managing director of Cerberus, also declined to comment.

The old Bushmaster factory in Windham, Maine, doesn't look like much. With a facade of brick and gray aluminum siding, it squats in an unassuming office park on the Roosevelt Trail.

But Cerberus representatives who arrived here in 2005 clearly saw potential. Inside, several dozen gunsmiths, working by hand, were fitting together 6,000 to 7,000 weapons a month. At the time, Bushmaster was thriving, although it had been stung by bad publicity stemming from the Beltway sniper shootings. (In a 2004 settlement with victims of the shootings and their families, Bull's Eye Shooter Supply, the store where the gun was acquired, agreed to pay $2 million, and Bushmaster agreed to pay $568,000, but they did not admit liability.)

Richard Dyke, then the principal owner and chairman of Bushmaster, welcomed the visitors from New York. A blunt-spoken Korean War veteran and Republican fundraiser, he had made a fortune himself by buying companies in trouble, including one that made poker chips. In 1976, he bought a bankrupt gun-maker in Bangor, Maine, for $241,000, moved it to Windham and later changed its name to Bushmaster. The company that Dyke bought had patents on semiautomatic weapons designed for the military and police. But he was drawn to the nascent market in military-style firearms for civilians. He saw as his customers precision target shooters, including current and former military personnel, police officers and, well, military wannabes, he says.

A Bushmaster Carbon 15 .223 semiautomatic is about 3 feet long. But, weighing in at just under 6 pounds, it is surprisingly easy to maneuver, even for a novice. It doesn't have to be recocked after it's fired: You just squeeze the trigger over and over.

"At 25 meters, if you are a decent shot," Dyke says, "you can put it into a bull's-eye that is the size of a quarter."

The Bushmaster brand began to grow in the 1980s after the company started supplying its semiautomatics to police departments. It won a much larger consumer following in the 1990s, after it landed several small military contracts.

Bushmaster was among the first to sell ordinary people on weapons that look and feel like the ones carried by soldiers. Today many gunmakers have embraced military-style weapons, a major but controversial source of growth for the commercial gun market, says Tom Diaz, a senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, a research group that backs gun control.

"It's clear that the militarized stuff is the stuff that sells and is defining the industry," Diaz says.

Dyke says he's not sure why Bushmaster caught the eye of Cerberus. Whatever the case, when Cerberus came calling, Dyke, then past 70, was ready to sell. At the time, Bushmaster had $85 million in annual sales and several million dollars in debt, he says. In April 2006, he sold the company to Cerberus for about $76 million, he says, and Cerberus rented the Bushmaster plant here for five years.

The next year, Cerberus formed the Freedom Group.

Now Bushmaster is gone from Maine. Earlier this year, Dyke says, the Freedom Group notified him it was closing Bushmaster's operation in the state and moving it to a bigger plant owned by Remington, a typical consolidation play for a private investment firm looking to cut costs and increase efficiency. Remington, for its part, announced earlier this year that it was expanding its manufacturing capacity and hiring new employees to make Bushmasters.

Several months ago, Dyke started a new company, Windham Weaponry, at the old Bushmaster site and has rehired most of his former employees. But he's not planning to go head-to-head with the Freedom Group.

"It's the big gorilla in the room," he says, adding: "We don't have to do $100 million. We'd have hopes of doing $20 million."

Remington has been producing guns since 1816, when, according to lore, a young man named Eliphalet Remington made a flintlock rifle in his father's forge in Ilion Gulch, in upstate New York. By the 1870s, the brand was so popular that the company diversified into typewriters. In 2007, the Freedom Group swooped in and bought Remington for $370 million, including $252 million in assumed debt. In one stroke, the Freedom Group gained one of the most famous names in U.S. firearms, the largest domestic maker of shotguns and rifles and a major manufacturer of ammunition.

"That caused a lot of stir in the industry," says Dean J. Lockwood, a weapons systems analyst at Forecast International, a market research firm.

Next, the Freedom Group in rapid succession went after other firearms companies: DPMS; Marlin Firearms, a classic maker that came with two niche shotgun brands, Harrington & Richardson and L.C. Smith; and Dakota Arms. The Freedom Group also bought S&K industries, which supplies wood and laminate for gun stocks, as well as the Advanced Armament Corp., which makes silencers. It acquired Barnes Bullets, which makes copper-jacketed bullets popular with precision shooters and police departments.

The more the company diversifies its portfolio, analysts say, the more it has to offer to firearms distributors and leading retailers like Wal-Mart and Cabela's.

This article appeared on page D - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/default.asp

November 7 2011

Since Windham Weaponry is a brand new manufacturer that has risen from the ashes of what was the manufacturing facility of Bushmaster Firearms, it seems only logical to begin by telling this story that fortunately has a happy ending.

In the beginning, Bushmaster Firearms International made their name as a well known maker of quality AR-15 type rifles owned by Richard Dyke. In 2006 he sold the company to Cerberus Capital Management, which in turn owned Freedom Group, which became Bushmaster's parent company that also owned other firearms manufacturer's including Remington and Marlin. Bushmaster production continued in Windham, Maine until March of 2011 when it was moved to Ilion, New York, to consolidate operations with other Freedom Group manufacturing. The facility in Windham was closed and the employees were laid off. Soon afterward Richard Dyke stepped back into the picture. He still owned the facility as he had been leasing it to Freedom Group since selling Bushmaster in 2006. He also had a 5 year non-compete agreement that was expiring soon. He must have felt as I do, that no one can make these rifles better than the folks in Windham, Maine so he decided to put another company together and put the workers back in business making these fine rifles. The new company was named Windham Weaponry and commenced manufacturing operations over the summer of 2011.


FIRST IMPRESSIONS:

So here we are just a few months later with the subject of this review the new Windham Weaponry, Model # R16M4A4T, an semi-automatic M-4 clone otherwise known as the MPC. Since Windham Weaponry has firm roots in Bushmaster I assumed that the new rifles would be basically exact copies with a new logo. I've always been a fan of the Bushmaster rifles and wouldn't have objected to this in any way, but I did find there are some improvements to this new Windham Weaponry rifle. The first thing I noticed is the finish. It is a deeper black than my Bushmaster. In fact it's really a nicer, blacker look that you'll notice when comparing to the older Bushmasters. After a closer and more thorough examination I noticed that the trigger guard seemed to be different. The more recent Bushmasters used a polymer part and I was pretty sure this one was metal, (aluminum?). When shooting the rifle I also noticed that the trigger was nicer than the old Bushmasters, (more on that later). The fit and finish looks nice for an AR rifle with no stray tool marks or scratches. The hand guard and 6 position telescoping stock are nicely made parts and are fitted well to the rifle. All the controls and action are well made, as well as fit and function perfectly.

After discovering these improvements and wanting to know more, I sent off an email to Mark Eliason, Vice President of Sales and Marketing at Windham Weaponry. In his reply he said, "...The Windham Weaponry rifle is similar to the BFI rifles, but we used our own specifications on many key details. The advantage of having a wealth of experience in building rifles eliminates a fair amount of trial and error in manufacturing and allowed us to make a number of improvements. We tightened the tolerances on specifications such as fit and finish and went to aluminum trigger guards, I never liked those plastic ones. Yes, the trigger is improved by using an additional process to make as smooth as possible and the darker black finish looks better than what I've seen. Attention to detail is what will help set us apart from other AR suppliers out there and our customer service will set a new standard in how to back up a product line."

Needless to say I have noticed those improvements as did many of the folks that I have seen and fired the MPC with me at the shooting ranges I have visited. The trigger improvement mentioned earlier was universally appreciated by the couple of dozen people I allowed to shoot it while visiting the ranges. It's a cleaner, very crisp, break that feels to me more like a nice bolt action than an AR.

Technical Specifications:

Model: R16M4A4T
Type: Semi-Auto M-4 / AR clone
Caliber: .223 Rem. / 5.56mm NATO
Capacity: 30+1 Standard AR type magazine
Action: Gas Impingement Semi-Automatic
Receiver: Forged 7075 T6 Aircraft Aluminum
Receiver Finish: Hardcoat Black Anodize Finish
Barrel: 16" M4 Profile, Chrome Lined
Barrel Material: 4150 Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel
Rifling: 1 Turn in 9" - Right Hand Twist
Stock: 6-Position Telescoping Buttstock
Rear Sight: A4 Dual Aperture Adjustable
Front Sight: Elevation Adjustable A2 type
Weight: 6.9 lbs.
MSRP: $1,086.00

SHOOTING:

As soon as I took the MPC out of the box I stripped it down and cleaned it thoroughly before shooting. It looked pretty clean but I think this a good practice with any new gun as well as go over the owner's manual. After it was cleaned we started shooting it, A LOT! We put over 1200 rounds through it in just a few days. It fed, fired and ejected everything we put through it from economy steel cased ammo to premium loads. I even mixed up one thirty round magazine with 6 different loads, cheap stuff, good stuff, both .223 Remington and 5.56 MM NATO, and fired all thirty rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger. I figured that if I was going to have trouble this would cause it, but everything worked flawlessly. All of the shooting was done with the battle sights and it wasn't hard to keep all the rounds on a paper plate target at 100 yards after tweaking the sights just a tad. I visited two shooting ranges over those few days and always allowed everyone I met to try this rifle. Everyone agreed that shooting the new Windham Weaponry MPC rifle is just plain fun! So much fun, in fact, that the biggest problem you'll have is paying for all the ammo you want to shoot.

While the MPC is fun to shoot, it is also quite versatile. First, it would be a really nice rifle to use in the three gun competitions that are springing up at clubs all over the place lately. I'll admit that I've never competed in that game yet, but I have fired the course a few times. This accurate and reliable rifle would be perfect for just such shooting games. In fact, I may just have to conquer my stage fright and try the MPC in a real competition soon. Of course informal target shooting is always a blast too.

Second, the MPC is a perfect home defense weapon. The telescoping butt stock and short 16 inch barrel make it handy for inside the home defensive situations. With a thirty round magazine full of Hornady TAP ammunition you would be very well armed to defend your home and family. In fact, I can't think of anything I would prefer to that combination, although I might also like to have my trusty M1911 with me as well.

Third, this rifle is an adequate hunting arm. This is a statement I intend to prove in time. The A3 flat top design with the removable carry handle sight lends itself well to the use of a scope, and there are Maine legal 5 shot magazines available. I'm a coyote hunter and using this rifle on coyotes is a no brainer. Having 5 quick and accurate shots available may help when more than one coyote comes to the call. That said, the .223 Remington round isn't the first to come to mind when discussing deer rifles but there are factory .223 Remington loads available that are designed for deer sized game. I'm deer hunting and coyote hunting with this rifle this year and will follow up with an article after the season with all the details about that. Hopefully the deer and/or coyotes will co-operate. In any case stay tuned and expect more about that.

STRIP 'ER DOWN AND CLEAN 'ER UP:

This Windham Weaponry MPC field strips exactly like every other AR-15 type rifle you've ever seen and in fact just like the M-16 you carried if you served in the U. S. Armed Forces. (Thank you very much!) As you can see from the pictures the bolt carrier group gets dirty after 1200+ rounds so you can see how important it is to clean your rifles periodically. You will notice that while I did strip the bolt carrier group I did not remove the ejector this time. You can get away with that for a while but you'll need to strip it to clean it eventually. Just keep an eye on it and don't let it get really fouled up. I use a toothbrush, pipe cleaners, patches, rags, wire brush and chamber brush and a fair amount of Hoppe's Number 9 to clean things up nicely. I finish up with Break Free or Rem Oil while I reassemble. When I'm done I always have a rifle that is clean and well lubed. Cleaning the gun is not a chore so much as it's an opportunity to handle and appreciate a fine weapon. So take your time, do a good job and enjoy the experience.

CONCLUSION:

There are plenty of possibilities for the MPC. In fact this rifle would be good choice if for some reason you could only have ONE. I own a whole bunch of firearms and I'm not even considering getting rid of ANY of them, BUT if I had to make a choice of selecting ONE rifle, (like maybe in a bug out type situation), this is the one rifle I would quickly decide to take with me. The 5.56mm NATO round and .223 Remington are cheap and available. In fact they are arguably the cheapest centerfire rifle rounds available. Having several magazines and a stockpile of ammo for this rifle is an affordable option. As noted earlier you be well armed to defend your home and family as well as putting food on the table if the situation forced you to live off the land.

The folks at Windham Weaponry have hit a home run with the MPC. Their recent improvements over the Bushmasters are both noticeable appreciated. It's good to know that the the talented and dedicated gun makers in Windham, Maine are still building high quality, very affordable AR type rifles. For more information on their full product line visit their website at http://www.windhamweaponry.com/, and/or ask about them at your local gun store. Stay tuned for more as I've heard they will be expanding their product line. Maybe you'll see another review here, along with a follow up on my hunting experiences with this rifle.

As always, shoot safely and shoot often and remember to take the kids so they can enjoy the shooting sports!

Grampa

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Thanks Wimpy for introducing Windham. What a story.  I never realized how far "J'ed" the gun business has become.

I actually didn't buy it yet. I have a stock Saiga  7.62x39

My own looks a lot like this with the rails and Tapco-6 add-ons...and several 10 and 30 mags (Pro-Mag).  I haven't converted the trigger group though. Haven't bought lights or scope yet either... probably get a cheaper Red-dot EO Tech (but they aren't cheap..    ). This gun is kind of ongoing project-play thing.  It's fun to shoot though.



This SRC looks pretty sweet. I'd like to get a reach to 400+ meters and Saiga just isn't doing it.  It's a good gun though. This really fits the bill... it's either this or an M-1 Garand at this point.




Model:         R16M4FTT
Caliber:         .223 Rem. / 5.56mm NATO
Type:         Rifle
Action:         Semi-Automatic, Gas Impingement System
Capacity:         30 + 1- Ships with one 30 Round Magazine (accepts all std. sizes)
Safety:         Manual Lever with Indicator Markings Both Sides of Receiver
Receiver:         M4A4 Type Flat Top Upper Receiver
Receive Material:         Forged 7075 T6 Aircraft Aluminum with Aluminum Trigger Guard
Receiver Finish:         Hardcoat Black Anodize Finish
Barrel:         16" M4 Profile, Chrome Lined with. A2 Flash Suppressor
Barrel Material:         4150 Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel
Rifling:         1 Turn in 9" - Right Hand Twist
Stock:         6-Position Telescoping Buttstock with Windham Weaponry Logo
Forend / Pistol Grip:         M4 Double Heat Shield Handguards / Black Plastic Grip
Rear Sight:         None - Ready for optics or other type accessory sights
Front Sight:         None - Picatinny Rail Gas Block - Ready for accessory sights
Packaging:         Hard Plastic Gun Case with Black Web Sling & Operators Manual
Weight:         6.3 lbs.

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/shopexd.asp?id=95

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Almost forgot... the CETME is still in the mix...

[Anonymous]

it can be a difficult question but I'd go .308.

Reasons are simple.  If your shooting in the 300 meter range WITH NO OBSTRUCTIONS .223 can be a good choice. The platforms are generally lighter (if you don't mount too many toys on your weapon), the ammo is lighter allowing you to carry more and the round creates a large wound channel when used in its intended range. The AR platform can also be pretty accurate for a semi-auto.

However, it just doesn't have the knock down power of .308. If your in say a forest you might be lucky to have a 50m clear shot but you can blow throw an 8" tree no problem and tag your target behind it, not so with a .223. Point being you can breech cover far better with a .308 and the fact is when shot at people take cover.

Even though you can carry way more .223 the fact is you need way more of it as well.  .223 is good for room clearing and shorter distances. Its a 300m round at best in reality when it comes to fighting, maybe less. The AR platform is not a SHTF platform imo. I dig em a lot but I'd rather trust a rig I can drag in the mud (make sure barrel is not obstructed) like an M14 or AK.

If you want to go with a lighter platform (compared to .308) I'd consider a good AK over the AR. Granted the AK is much less accurate but when you compare the realistic useful range of the two rounds the AK is (generally) accurate enough but has more knock down power. The smaller/lighter 7.62 x 39 round (compared to the .308) puts you back into the ability to carry more rounds.

Some will argue the point of higher recoil with a .308. Bottom line is you must learn how to use firearms properly. .308 recoil is more than manageable.

In an SHTF situation you should be evading instead of engaging. Go .308.

ZS

[Michael K.]

ZS-

I agree on .308 for would-be combat shooters and trained marksmen.   I got into a DPMS 7.62x51 NATO Sportical, which is essentially a flat top AR-10 clone in a 16" heavy barrel version.   .308 and 7.62 x 51 NATO are nearly the same ammunition, and can interchange in most cases.



One important difference is that the 7.62 x 51 NATO chamber is .004" longer than the .308, facilitating extraction of military ammunition, which tends to vary from one country to the next in terms of head space.  A .308 chamber may be too tight for some mil-surplus ammo to readily extract, but .308 ammo will cycle through a 7.62 x 51 NATO chamber with ease.

As far as the AR-15 / 5.56 platform, I sincerely believe that if you have no gun skills and no training in firearms, that the lighter caliber AP-4 short barrel carbine with collapsible stock version would be a much better choice than either a handgun of any variety or a heavier caliber weapon, for self defense.

Note: the same issues apply to 5.56 NATO vs. .223, so be sure to get the 5.56 chamber unless you are building a long-range varmint rifle.

Carbines are easier to point and shoot than pistols (which actually require a high level of skill to use effectively beyond point blank range -5m), and the AR-15 variants are light enough to dangle off the shoulder on a tactical sling all day without significant fatigue, as opposed to a much heavier .308 main battle rifle, which all but the hardiest will be tempted to take off and put down whenever possible.

Also, the overall firepower is several times greater for the money invested, compared to a high capacity auto pistol or quality revolver.  And parts are universal for AR type clones, making them a more practical survival choice than a pistol.   Also, the pointed, narrow full metal jacket bullet of the AR-15 will go through soft body armor like a hot knife through butter, where a blunt handgun bullet would be stopped by it.

In conclusion, the benefits of a heavier caliber are outweighed by the disadvantages in terms of initial cost and encumbrance if you do not have the skill to shoot beyond 100m, or the guts to attack with it.

[Anonymous]

Michael K,

Agreed on all points.

I'm well aware of the differences between NATO spec. and civilian spec ammo and often forget others may not.

Yes, I do agree a 5.56/.223 is much easier to handle for someone with little to no training and you offer good advice there. Often have to remind myself not everyone knows how to do this. Even if a person does not have much shooting skills I do recommend they learn how to keep the AR running because it is more work than some other platforms.

One gun I recommend EVERYONE own is an SKS. Its cheap (for now), ammo is somewhat cheap (for now) and its reasonably accurate. Its one of the most rugged semi-auto's out there. There is no cheaper way to get yourself a man stopper battle rifle (within its useful range). Its not real heavy (although its front heavy instead of evenly balanced) and its built like a tank.

Two key things people really don't realize when first getting into firearms and stocking up for SHTF is #1, the real cost is in ammo. Way more than the gun to get real numbers piled up. And #2, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT skimp on optics. There's some real improvement in more reasonably priced lines but generally if you not spending AT LEAST $1000 on a scope your buying questionable stuff.

If your new to this game, realize time is short and have little to spend on this stuff go out and get yourself a Russian SKS and as much surplus ammo as you can afford. Buy some soft point and ballistic tip stuff as well if you can.

Learn how it works but most importantly learn its limitations. Don't trick the damn thing out because your wasting your money (although there are 2 or 3 inexpensive things you can do to it to make it more user friendly).

At least you will have SOMETHING. A really rugged simple fairly low'ish recoil semi-auto battle rifle with a lot of ammo.

If you can afford a good AR or whatever (and ammo and ....) after that than great. Get something.

And Michael K gives good advice on handguns. Forget em if you don't have the real time and money to learn the skills necessary. They really are difficult to learn to shoot well.

I'll say it again to people out there today who are unarmed:  GET AND SKS AND LOTS OF AMMO NOW. (don't forget the cleaning kit to maintain it, thats not expensive). Also, if you don't have the money for a full on chest rig get an inexpensive Chinese issue SKS chest rig to hold 10 round stripper clips of 7.62 x 39.
Almost all new shooters give no thought about how to carry ammo in an accessible manner. You can get these rigs for as little as  $10 - $15. They are simple but basically work.

I have SKS's as a back up for my backups or to hand to others if need be but everyone of them has a chest rig and cleaning kit to go with it as well as bullet drop info on the side of it for surplus and hunting ammo.

Get moving you unarmed forum members, your gonna need it.

ZS

[Wimpy]

Final, for now, version of my Windham Weaponry Inc., AR-15.  Sorry about the dark photos but the camera flash stopped working.

The fore-grip handle has a spring loaded bi-pod, the scope is an illuminated 1 X 4 w/ .223 reticle graduations and the flashlight is just a flashlight.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Looks real nice Wimpy!

Thanks for showing the pics.  Windham is a first choice for an AR above all, IMHO.  Looks like they are doing everything right. The fore-grip looks pretty handy for transitions. Very cool.  Does it sight up as well? :up:

[Wimpy]

With bi-pod extended and resting on the bench, grouping is within 1" of the 1 MOA Red Center Dot (1 MOA= 1" at 100 yards) at 100 Yards.  Better than average .223 NATO ammo used.  The open sight, which is still fully functional with this set-up, is pretty close to the above accuracy and good enough for me.  The carry handle mount with picatinny has a see through 'tunnel' for the open sights.

The addition of the options turned into a snow ball effect.  A quad picatinny rail fore-stock was required to mount the fore-grip (Pod Grip Co.-USA made, the only other grip like it is Israeli-screw that).  Since I had to add the quad fore stock I can now mount the flashlight or laser/sight if I choose...or any other 'combat fairy' item. :lol:

I reviewed many accessory options, ammo and sights before the overall decision was made.  I ended up with an equivalent GI configuration for thousands $ less and I don't believe that I sacrificed durability, accuracy or functionality.  The entire set-up  including shipping and some tax (less ammo) $ 1,650.00.

[Michael K.]

Sweet rifle, Wimpy. :up:

Don't forget to get a tactical sling and a chest harness to carry the magazines.

Speaking of magazines, I assume that you are aware that most jams in AR-15/M-16 rifles are due to faulty or worn out magazines.  Spare no expense on the mags, it's your life we're talking about.

[Wimpy]

Windham Weaponry offers their own line of magazines and I purchased several.  They are Teflon coated aircraft aluminum with a stainless steel spring.  Since they are only 10 round capacity (Californication law) there is probably less of a jamming issue as with larger capacity?

Funny you should mention a tactical sling, Michael.  Probably the least expensive accessory of all yet I'm having a difficult time choosing.  Any suggestions?

[Michael K.]

As far as a tactical sling, I use a three-point, but there appears to be a better alternative now for users with a quad picatinny forestock:  the two-point.  The one point doesn't suck, but it is not hands-free.

[Wimpy]

Thank you for the suggestion!