Is the God of the Old Testament a Merciless Monster?

[GordZilla]

You still cant answer, but you're still sure of yourself, that is what I've pointed out. To show others (what most already know about you) that you are a hypocrite and anything further you have to say should always be regarded in this light.  Its a simple question Yo Moma, and untill you can address that, what makes you think you know anything about any God? You have how many threads on your hate of God, and all things of faith? Many threads started by you about faith - of all things -yet you fail to answer the most simple and the most fundamental question of all.  And all these threads are posted as if you're some kind of authority on the subject, well then answer the simple question put to you directly or perhaps stop questioning other's beliefs untill you can solidify your own. Hypocrite.

[Yo Mama]

GordZilla, what is your level of education?  Did you successfully graduate from high school?

If you want to debate the existence of the Platonic "God" of philosophy(an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent transcendent being), then you should start your own thread on this subject.

[GordZilla]

College level, but that's neither here nor there, especially when one is wise to the fact the post-secondary education is more about programming than it is about any sort of enlightenment.  I'd say experience counts for a hell of a lot more than education, so in return I could just ask of you; how old are you?

My problem with you, Yo Moma, and people like you (who are most often Jewish) is that you seek, above all else, to cause discord and divide. Here on a forum where we know our numbers are already few - you put precedent, first and foremost,  on causing even more divide. You, in your numerous approaches to this task, attack Christianity above all else. This is also very suspicious to me as this is one of the very few faiths that has ever caused the Jews any sort of grief, historically. No, I'm not referring to modern day Judeochristianity, but rather the traditional variety that the Jew has long since destroyed (for the most part). You would seek to cause even more destruction to this faith that could, if practiced devoutly and with mass unity, very well (and once again) foil the Jew's plans. Islam also has this potential as  do -arguably- other faiths. Faiths like these help to bring people together under common purpose, which in return can expel the Jew from positions of power. Historically we've seen this unfold many times. However NEVER threw secularism nor atheism have the Jew's ever felt any gentile wraith -again; historically.

So here you are, thread after thread, doing the Jew's work. Promoting atheism while dismissing all other faiths, and going further to even attack the faithful personally. To what end Yo Moma? I know it's not because you know there's no creator, as no one can know that for sure (as previously pointed out for you). So what then, what is your game? I have only one conclusion myself, and I've seen it time and time again, usually in mainstream venues, not anti-Zionist/Jew forums, but none-the-less the modus operandi is the same. Destroy faiths in all peoples anywhere you can. It's even one of their fricken protocols, to destroy faith in the gentiles. However  the Jew on average is wiser than you - they at least know there's a God, and the honest ones know they have long since lost favour with Him. You however, willingly or unwillingly, play right into their hands and go about doing their work for them.

So to recap; You don't know for sure there's no creator. You do however spend vast amounts of time attacking the faithful on a forum that's frankly anti-Jew - totally missing the target and instead attacking the very people whom have historically proven to be the Jew's biggest and most successful enemies.  Just review your posts, it is certainly your biggest concern; that concern being no unity appears here, what-so-ever. Especially any forming under the banner of faith. All the pieces fall into line, and to the more discerning of us, it paints you in your true colours. Hypocrite, or troll , but either way useless human being when it comes to our collective struggle - you offer nothing but doubt, discord and divide.


P.S. If this is once again too many words for you  just consider it a complement.  I know there are quite a few here that have a lot less words for you, and some none at all as they are simply tired of you. The mere fact I try to explain myself to you is simply to cause, if I could be so bold, even more unity through understanding.  Our enemy is not each other, and it's not the faithful nor secular - it is the Jew, period.


P.S.S. Just learned you were banned, though I'm sure you will be back one day, hopefully you will read this reply then - we don't need to be enemies.

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

CSR, Gordo, thoughts?

[youtube:1fn6ppu3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPZI99cTyio[/youtube]1fn6ppu3]

[youtube:1fn6ppu3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8RC3PDOF_c[/youtube]1fn6ppu3]

[youtube:1fn6ppu3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du4OdJ45aU0[/youtube]1fn6ppu3]

[GordZilla]

Hi Tim, I watched them but frankly thru the bad audio and terms used that I'm not too familiar with I sort of lost the message. I can tell you that I don't see a problem with evolution fitting in with God's creation,  I've stated that before on occasion.  The section of the ancient science as opposed to today's science however totally lost me. I'm sorry. If you have an synopsis of that, a summary in your own words that may help. Overall, and I'm sorry to say,  I didn't find it too earth moving or revealing on any front, but again I may need a dictionary with me when viewing it again.


 :oops:

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

I'm not sure what to think. New to me. The reason this is all coming up for me is because of Kevin MacDonald. His views on evolutionary biology seem to support theism and appear to contradict the theory of evolution itself. But if what the above professor says is true then there are at least two radically different streams of evolutionary theory.

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

Evolutionary Creation:

A Christian Approach to Evolution

Denis O. Lamoureux
St. Joseph's College, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Evolutionary creation claims that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit created the universe and
life through an ordained, sustained, and design-reflecting evolutionary process. This view of origins
fully embraces both the religious beliefs of biblical Christianity and the scientific theories of
cosmological, geological, and biological evolution. It contends that the Creator established and
maintains the laws of nature, including the mechanisms of a teleological evolution. In other words,
evolution is a planned and purpose driven natural process. This position also argues that humans
evolved from pre-human ancestors, and over a period of time the Image of God and human sin were
gradually and mysteriously manifested. Evolutionary creationists experience the Father's love and
presence in their lives. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, they drink deeply from the Bible and
enjoy an everlasting source of spiritual nourishment for their soul. And these Christian evolutionists
meet the Lord Jesus in a personal relationship, which at times involves both dramatic and subtle
answers to prayer as well as miraculous signs and wonders.
To be sure, the category of evolutionary creation seems like a contradiction in terms. This
would indeed be the case if the words "evolution" and "creation" were restricted to their popular
meanings. That is, if the former is fused to an atheistic worldview, and if the latter refers exclusively
to creation in six literal days about six thousand years ago. But evolutionary creationists reject the
black-and-white categorization of origins and move beyond the so-called "evolution vs. creation
debate." Regrettably, this common approach traps individuals into a dichotomy, leaving them with
only two options, and limiting their ability to make informed choices. The either/or view of origins
has led many both inside and outside of the church to assume that there is a conflict or warfare
between scientific discoveries and Christian faith. Evolutionary creation rejects this simplistic
understanding of the relationship between science and religion, and underlines that the origins
dichotomy is a false dichotomy.
The most important word in the term evolutionary creation is the noun "creation." These
Christian evolutionists are first and foremost thoroughly committed and unapologetic creationists.
They believe that the world is a creation that is absolutely dependent for every instant of its existence
on the will and grace of the Creator. The qualifying word in this category is the adjective
"evolutionary," indicating simply the method through which the Lord made the cosmos and living
organisms. This view of origins is often referred to as "theistic evolution." However, such a word
arrangement places the process of evolution as the primary term, and makes the Creator secondary
as merely a qualifying adjective. Such an inversion in priority is unacceptable to me and other
evolutionary creationists.
Another reason for the category of evolutionary creation is that the word "theistic" carries
such a wide variety of meanings today. Derived from the common Greek word for god (theos), the
proper definition of theism refers to belief in a personal god, like the God of Christianity. But as
everyone knows, there are many different gods, and consequently, countless uses of this word.
Therefore, the term evolutionary creation distinguishes conservative Christians who love Jesus and

the reality of these spiritual characteristics, but recognize that comprehending their origin completely
is beyond our creaturely capacity to know.
Intelligent Design in Nature
To explain their view of origins further, evolutionary creationists are also quick to point out
to fellow Bible-believing Christians that their approach offers an expanded and more robust
understanding of intelligent design in nature.1 This version of the design argument for God's
existence appeals to more physical evidence than that proposed by young earth creation (divine
interventions created the entire world in six literal days six thousand years ago; e.g., Henry Morris,
Ken Ham) or progressive creation (divine interventions introduced origin of living organisms at
different times through six geological periods over 4.5 billion years of earth history; e.g., Hugh
Ross). At one level, evolutionary creation is in full agreement with these anti-evolutionary positions
in that design is evident in nature's current structures and operations. For example, consider the most
complex structure known—the human brain. This organ is an electrical circuitry marvel with trillions
of synaptic connections, and incredibly much of it develops in the womb beginning from only one
fertilized egg. The structure, function, and embryological development of the brain offer a breath-
taking level of elegant complexity that few deny reflects the work of an Intelligent Designer.
At another level, evolutionary creation moves beyond the anti-evolutionary positions to argue
that intelligent design is also expressed in the processes and mechanisms of evolution. The
evolutionary intelligent design argument underlines the majesty, foresight, and rationality mirrored
in the natural processes that created the universe and life across the eons of time. According to this
position, the declaration of God's glory in the creation extends beyond the manifestations seen today
to include the incredible self-assembling character of the natural world during the distant past. More
specifically, design is evident in the finely-tuned physical laws and initial conditions necessary for
the evolution of the cosmos through the Big Bang, and design is also apparent in the biological
processes necessary for life to evolve, including humans with their incredibly complex brains.
Therefore, evolutionary creation offers a wider and stronger design argument than the traditional
formulation presented in young earth creation and progressive creation by having an evolutionary
component. This position also predicts that as the evolutionary sciences advance, research will reveal
a Creator with unimaginably more power, planning, and splendour than previously believed in earlier
generations. To the surprise of many, evolutionary creationists enjoy a greater and more complete
intelligent design argument for God's existence than their anti-evolutionist Christian brothers and
sisters.

The term intelligent design is quite controversial today. It is important to distinguish the biblical and traditional
understanding of intelligent design from that promoted by the Intelligent Design Movement...

See full document here: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... JhaeJRKRGA

I don't agree with everything this guy says, like that we evolved from pre-human ancestors, but it is interesting nonetheless. I could accept a "limited evolution" theory.

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

Cosmic evolutionary theories and the origins of the species is highly improbably; however, there are very apparent biological evolutionary processes taking place in our world that the Church has done a terrible job of explaining.

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

I have always wondered why it was that God instituted an animal sacrificial system in the Old Testament. What exactly is it about blood and death that atones for sins. Why does God require it to atone? Is there something about blood that the laws of nature require to justify deviation from the natural order God intended. How could a just God require others to die? Consider the following points, as I am currently doing.

The sacrifice/offering that God required was to ultimately show:

1. There is consequence for sin... DEATH (Leviticus 4:14-15, Genesis 2:16-17 & Romans 6:23)

2. Recognize that we are not holy or not perfect. We are sinners... (Romans 3:23)

4. And recognize our need for a savior... to save us from ourselves in order to be with God.
(Hebrews 10:3-10)

5. Therefore there is punishment and payment required for sin in order to be accepted by a Holy
and Just God. (Hebrews 9:22, Leviticus 16:6-10 & 21-22 & 30, Hebrews 9:14-15)

--------
One can read in Romans 3:23-28 this understanding of God being completely just and the one who
justifies people to himself. God has to bring this justification by some way of payment for the things
we do wrong (sin) or therefore God would not be just and holy. just and holy. The sacrifice of Christ is the way

God can bring this justification for us (sinners) to himself. The sacrifice God setup in the law atones
(pays) for sin and in Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross atones for every sin that one commits (past,
present & future), to those who believe. God is in love with his creation and desires for them to be
reunited with himself. However, there is a gap, which is our unholy and sinful lives.

This paragraph from James Denney gives a good picture of God and why there needs to be a
sacrifice for sin...

"There can be no gospel unless there is such a thing as a righteousness of God for the ungodly. But
just as little can there be any gospel unless the integrity of God's character be maintained. The
problem of the sinful world, the problem of all religion, the problem of God in dealing with a sinful
race, is how to unite these two things. The Christian answer to the problem is given by Paul in the
words: 'Jesus Christ who God set forth a propitiation in His blood'" (J. Denney, The Death of Christ,
Tyndale, 1951, p.98).

Reading Hebrews 9 & 10 in the Bible will help connect the what the law of sacrifice and offerings
was for, stated in the old testament or old covenant to what Jesus Christ has done for us by the work
of the cross in sacrificing himself for us, and bringing the new covenant that cleanse us from all sin if
we believe in Christ's atoning work! This is the good news! God is always coming after us to bring
us to himself. Reconciliation has been done through Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:19-22)!!

As a Christian, I struggle with this concept more than any other in Christianity. However, I am willing to admit my naivety and inferior wisdom compared to that of an omnipresent and infinite God. Perhaps by comparison, I completely understand the basic concept of our Earthly laws, i.e. going to prison for committing crimes. And I think most people, even you at this forum, can understand that. So why is it that we criticize God for carrying out a similar mode of punishment? If we accept the basic common law of crime and punishment but criticize the creator for holding us to the same standards, is that fair?

To me, it seems that the key to this is blood, and life being contained in it. When blood is shed, a life is taken up. Likewise, when someone is sent to prison, their life is taken up in one way or another, whether it is through the death penalty or a lengthy sentence. So, for those on this forum who have been outspoken in criticizing God's handling of our sin, where are your cries of cruelty and barbarism over the common law system of crime and punishment? Furthermore, how is the concept of crime and punishment unjust?