Re: Did Jews invent the "punk" culture?

[kolnidre]

To point out that there were many Jewish punks is akin to pointing out that there were many Jewish Communists; while true, it ignores the fact of the newer identity essentially canceling out the older.

Of course that is total crap. Neither punk nor communism would exist without the Jewish impetus. Both are outgrowths of the Jewish revolutionary mindset that seeks to destroy and reshape everything but "Israel," not the country but the body of Jews worldwide. In Talmudic terms, this is known as tikkun olam.

I'm sure a little digging will find similar "culture creation" behind disco, as a sort of antidote to the music of the sixties associated with social radicalism. More of the dialectic played out in the cultural realm, and further proof that culture can be and is most often created and shepherded, not organically developed.

[Rory27]

Well,I would decidedly argue that "punk" did NOT solely "start" in the USA anyway...I think the UK has a longer history with overly aggressive rawkers...   ...And besides that,i would argue FULLY that punk does NOT "seeks to destroy and reshape everything but "Israel," "...I have not met a punk rawker yet that was not 101% apposed to Zionism...

[kolnidre]

Well,I would decidedly argue that "punk" did NOT solely "start" in the USA anyway...I think the UK has a longer history with overly aggressive rawkers...   ...And besides that,i would argue FULLY that punk does NOT "seeks to destroy and reshape everything but "Israel," "...I have not met a punk rawker yet that was not 101% apposed to Zionism...

You're missing the point of how "revolutionary movements" work. The punk on the street doesn't have to support Zionism, but s/he acts as a change agent. Without the support of the record companies, station owners and managers, talent agents, and concert promoters would punk ever have gotten off the ground and crossed oceans?

Hey, I love jazz more than any other music, but I understand that jazz was an "anti-establishment" force in its day. The Jewish role in promoting jazz is well documented, from the owners of the clubs to the record company owners, producers, agents, and promoters. People like Louis Armstrong and Billie Holliday were completely under the thumb of Jewish interests throughout their careers, and Miles Davis wrote in his autobiography that he gave up using goyishe agents and promoters because it was such a kosher club out there that only Jews could get the job done.

The promotion of punk worked in exactly the same way.

[Anonymous]

whether or not jews are involved, lightly or heavily, in "anti-establishment activities" does little to nothing to diminish the contributions of those who feel a need to change the status quo to better favor recognition of their contributions and mentality.  when you quote jazz as a similar jewish controlled "movement" that does little to explain or lessen the influence of the Jazz Messengers lead by Art Blakey (Abdullah ibn Buhaina) for example.  Anti-, bureaucracy, establishment, old order, top-down promotion of the dominant culture/paradigm, etc should be the norm or the default in every society on earth at this time, in my view.  Whether or not jews decide to join in the fray and impose their own agenda, as if a uniform, monolithic one, truly and perfectly exists, is largely irrelevant.  Men like Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Yusef Lateef, Gillespie, Dakota Staton, and Ahmad Jamal would still be as dope and original with or without the jews.

[kolnidre]

Dude, I listened to Ahmad Jamal just this morning before ever seeing your post. I don't think we have a difference of opinion here. What I was trying to point out is that Jewish forces will always get behind any movements to disrupt the existing order. Whether or not that is a good thing is not the point; from the Jewish perspective, knocking it all down and refashioning the order of things in their own image, Tikkun Olem, is the issue.

I suggest listening to Peter Shaenck's interview with E. Michael Jones for some insight into the "Jewish Revolutionary Spirit." I came to similar conclusions independently, mostly through observance and reading the Talmud and writings by rabbis and other prominent Jewish figures, but Jones articulates the model better than I ever could.

If you're into Jamal and Lateef, send me a PM and I can hip you on to some incredible sources for classic stuff.

[Anonymous]

Tikkun Olam is "fixing the world"

A jewish lady came to our interfaith conference once and spoke about it too... (In the Q/A session, I asked her about ernst zundel and david irving and if she agreed with thought crime and she started crying, literally, about the callousness of holocaust 'denial')

I know we tend to see everything about jews in a conspiracy angle but even those whom we could convince about our ideas would scratch their head with that one because "Tikkun Olam" is the concept of jewish charity and help of the less fortunate and its certainly not understood by the mass scores of jews as a diabolical plan to conquer the globe and destroy all order, whether or not, some jews have understood that from it and are trying to act on their erroneous interpretation.

There is even a "progressive" jewish magazine called Tikkun which naturally is quite "anti-war" and for a "two-state solution" and withdrawal from the west bank like many many many liberal jews.  Sadly they don't know (or try to hide) that it is their same american 'hawkish' jewish brethren who are responsible for war and the PROLONGED occupation