Lying in Islam - Taqiyya

[mastermg]

If your going to attack Islam, attack the foundations of the religion i.e the Holy Quran, since the Quran is the main source of these "elitists".

Thank you that's exactly where I want to go and was the reason for starting this thread. All these silly ad hominem attacks are a innocent and childish distraction at best and intentionally applied Al-Taqiyya at worst.

My original challenge thus still stands.

Allah practices deceit is thus not a genuine god. The Koran's morals are corrupt as it promotes the practice of lying.

Phil, have you ever read the Quran? Please pick up the book and read a few verses before calling it corrupt. Your arguement is not valid because you did not base it in the Quran, you based it on an unknown hadith (saying of the Prophet).

Therefore you have no where to stand on now.

[high_treason]

This is all you can come up with?

Do you even know the whole verse or which sorah it comes from? or even the occassion of the verse?
Didn't think so, now let me school you as you seem to be a real sheep.

And (O beloved Prophet)! Remember, when the infidels were plotting against you, to confine you or to slay you or to drive you forth. And they were plotting their own and Allah was devising His Own and Allah's devise is the best.
Surat Al Anfal, Ayah 30

http://www.ahadees.com/english-surah-8.html

The Ayah is in response to the attack by the Mushrekeen in the time of Prophet Muhammed (SAW) when they wanted to assasinate him and he escaped them attempt. The meaning of Makr is devise and not deciet.

So Dutch idiot, are you still going to say the same crap again? cause obviously you have no understanding of the Quran or Islam to be speaking about it. Now if you have any other 'mistranslations' show them so I can prove you wrong again.

[Anonymous]

To deny that Islam does not have an elite is tantamount to saying that it has no leadership, a contention that is patently absurd as it is in sharp contradistinction with actuality as well as common sense.

Actually goofball, there is no preisthood or religious hierarchy... and Minus a spiritual Khalifa (like the first 4) Islam IS essentially without leadership.

Incidentally this is why the muslims are gettin beat down by your beloved West.

And to clarify,

a GLOBAL CALIPHATE DOES EXIST, and has for 100 years as of 2008!

(NO, I'm SERIOUS.  It REALLY HAS existed for 100 years is gaining momentum RAPIDLY! Be very afraid!)

but the majority of muslims are rejecting it (so far), and Europe and the WEST love it because it doesn't raise a finger against anyone, yet its goals are to spread Islam and consequently peace and justice throughout the entire world.  And it has millions of people following ONE MAN! Oh NO!?!!?!

I just gave you a lesson, now go read and stop lying & typing.

[DutchPhil]

Thank you my dear Muslim friends for showing such a kind and warm responses for an ignorant Kufar like me. I am overjoyed to learn that the hearts and minds of Muslims are indeed very much filled with peace and especially tolerance.  

Speaking of which, if Islam is all about peace and tolerance then why did the Muslims in general and the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini in particular aid the Nazis so fervently?

The Arabs took the side of the Axis, either overtly like Iraq or indirectly by withholding support for the Allies. Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini issued a fatwa- "summons to a holy war against Britain" in May 1941. The Mufti's widely heralded proclamation against Britain was declared in Iraq, where he was instrumental in "the pro-Nazi" Iraqi revolt of 1941.

In the 1930s, the fascist regimes that arose in Italy and Germany sought greater stakes in the Middle East, and began courting Arab leaders to revolt against their British and French custodians. Among their many willing accomplices was Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini, who fled Palestine after agitating against the British during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. He found refuge in Iraq – another British mandate – where he again topped the British most wanted list after helping pull the strings behind the Iraqi coup of 1941. The revolt in Baghdad was orchestrated by Hitler as part of a strategy to squeeze the region between the pincers of Rommel's troops in North Africa, German forces in the Caucuses and pro-Nazi forces in Iraq. However, in June 1941 British troops put down the rebellion and the Mufti escaped via Tehran to Italy and eventually to Berlin.

Once in Berlin, the Mufti received an enthusiastic reception by the "Islamische Zentralinstitut" and the whole Islamic community of Germany, which welcomed him as the "Führer of the Arabic world." In an introductory speech, he called the Jews the "most fierce enemies of the Muslims" and an "ever corruptive element" in the world.
Mufti Husseini Inspects Bosnian-Muslim SS 1943

Husseini soon became an honored guest of the Nazi leadership and met on several occasions with Hitler. He personally lobbied the Führer against the plan to let Jews leave Hungary, fearing they would immigrate to Palestine. He also strongly intervened when Adolf Eichman tried to cut a deal with the British government to exchange German POWs for 5000 Jewish children who also could have fled to Palestine. The Mufti's protests with the SS were successful, as the children were sent to death camps in Poland instead. One German officer noted in his journals that the Mufti would liked to have seen the Jews "preferably all killed." On a visit to Auschwitz, he reportedly admonished the guards running the gas chambers to work more diligently. Throughout the war, he appeared regularly on German radio broadcasts to the Middle East, preaching his pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic message to the Arab masses back home.

During the Second World War in Yugoslavia, many Muslim clerics in Bosnia and Kosovo were willing accomplices in the genocide of the nation's Serbian, Jewish and Roma population. From 1941 until 1945, the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust, killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, they were helped by Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia and Kosovo who were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini. Husseini openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division.

Husseini represents the prevalent pro-Nazi posture among the Arab/Muslim world before, during and even after the Holocaust. The Nazi-Arab connection existed even when Adolf Hitler first seized power in Germany in 1933. News of the Nazi takeover was welcomed by the Arab masses with great enthusiasm, as the first congratulatory telegrams Hitler received upon being appointed Chancellor came from the German Consul in Jerusalem, followed by those from several Arab capitals. Soon afterwards, parties that imitated the National Socialists were founded in many Arab lands, like the "Hisb-el-qaumi-el-suri" (PPS) or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Its leader, Anton Sa'ada, styled himself the Führer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS – which still receives its orders from Damascus – was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel.

The most influential party that emulated the Nazis was "Young Egypt," which was founded in October 1933. They had storm troopers, torch processions, and literal translations of Nazi slogans – like "One folk, One party, One leader." Nazi anti-Semitism was replicated, with calls to boycott Jewish businesses and physical attacks on Jews. Britain had a bitter experience with this pro-German mood in Egypt, when the official Egyptian government failed to declare war on the Wehrmacht as German troops were about to conquer Alexandria.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php

Pardon me for my infidel ignorance but surely one would expect that if Islam truly is in favor of peace and tolerance then the last thing one would expect is for Muslims to support something as deplorable as Nazi ideology. Please accept my humble request to indicate where the shoe don't fit.

Or would you say that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance towards all infidels with the exception of the Jews. And that moreover all Jews, including women and children, are worthy of death in the eyes of Muslims?

Surely, if true, this would be the most lopsided, if not downright hypocritical, of definitions of "peace and tolerance" I've ever come across until this moment in my life.

[DutchPhil]

So Allah is a type of god who favors the people that believe in him and follow him obediently while he curses and incites hatred towards those who don't, the so-called infidels or Kufar. Is that notion about right? Oh yeah before I forget, Allah also does not plot or scheme but rather he merely devises plans, without using deceit mind you, against the infidels. Correct?

I just gave you a lesson, now go read and stop lying & typing.

Speaking of which, does the Koran condone lying, albeit under certain circumstances, or does the Koran prohibit or at least not condone lying under any circumstances?

Does it or does it not?

[joeblow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Hu ... opposition

Political opposition

Although no Palestinians supported Zionism, not all Palestinians supported al-Husayni. A local leader, Abu Shair, meeting an emissary from the rebel headquarters in Damascus, who bore a list of people to be assassinated during the uprising, told Da'ud al-Husayni:

    'I don't work for Husayniya (''Husayni-ism") but for wataniya (nationalism)'[90]

In his review of Hillel Cohen's Army of Shadows, Palestinian Collaboration with Zionism, 1917-1948, Neve Gordon writes that al-Husayni

    defined all competing nationalist views and actions as treasonous. [...] Patronizing a Jewish doctor, employing a Jewish worker or being employed by a Jew—all became illegitimate. Thus, Husseini's uncompromising maximalist positions, alongside his camp's unwillingness to tolerate the views of its opponents, paradoxically ended up expanding the definition of traitor and collaborator.[91]

This resulted in opposition to al-Husayni from the 1930's and continuing up to 1948. According to a member of the Darwash family, considered traitors by al-Husayni,

    The mufti and his men said that my father was a traitor. But my father tried to prevent the war. He said to the mufti (al-Husayni): The war you are declaring will lead to the loss of Palestine. We need to negotiate. The mufti said idha takalam al-seif, uskut ya kalam – 'when the sword talks, there is no place for talking'. They say that my father sold land and that makes him a traitor. He didn't sell. But tell me this, if a man who sold 400 dunams to the Jews is a traitor, what would one say of a man whose policies led to the loss of Palestine? Isn't he the biggest of traitors?[92]

Many Palestinian Arabs refused to fight in 1948 because of their hatred for al-Husayni.[93]

One recounted that

    when Abd al-Qader appeared in the village of Surif, in the Hebron district, to speak before the village elders, there were some who said to him: 'You murdered eighty mukhtars and you should be fought before we kill the Jews'. Abd al-Qadar replied that he killed traitors. He was told: 'You are a criminal and you uncle (Hajj Amin) is a criminal and you are all an assembly of traitors'.[94]

[joeblow]

Phil, everybody now knows your problem is with me, because I tear down your Golden Idol, otherwise known as The Zagami Monster. Why are you avoiding addressing me? Are you scared of me, the Temporal Coadjutor?

I know you are Dutch and your English sucks, that is why you keep posting these nonsense articles from Talmudic Jews and Intelligence Agencies which have been debunked/refuted hundred of times.

What it looks like is that everyone politely answers your stupid questions, then you try run away to copy/paste a new article. Guess what? I am going to do the same thing to you, you dumbass Black-Poper.

[Ognir]

Nothing wrong with Phil's English Joe

[Shiksa Rage]

Nothing wrong with Phil's English Joe

Agreed. His English is fine. It's his opinions that suck.

[DutchPhil]

Phil, everybody now knows your problem is with me, because I tear down your Golden Idol, otherwise known as The Zagami Monster. Why are you avoiding addressing me? Are you scared of me, the Temporal Coadjutor?

No I am not. I just see it as irrelevant to answer to your childish and deluded ad hominem attacks and other distractions that take away the focus of the topic at hand.

I know you are Dutch and your English sucks, that is why you keep posting these nonsense articles from Talmudic Jews and Intelligence Agencies which have been debunked/refuted hundred of times.

Pictures from before the Photoshop era do not lie Joe. Do you deny that Muslims collaborated with the Nazis?

What it looks like is that everyone politely answers your stupid questions, then you try run away to copy/paste a new article. Guess what? I am going to do the same thing to you, you dumbass Black-Poper.

If only everybody would be polite like for instance mastermg and Noel. I don't know maybe I misread but think I've been insulted quite a few number of times already. If you call that politely answering then you and I differ on that count also.
 
If insults rather than bringing counter-arguments is all you can muster Joe then I pity you as you only disgrace yourself and the 'truth' principle put up on a banner of this forum.

Love me or hate me, my challenge still stands though. Does Islam condone and even encourage lying?

[Travis]

Dutch said

Speaking of which, does the Koran condone lying, albeit under certain circumstances, or does the Koran prohibit or at least not condone lying under any circumstances?

Does it or does it not?

According To Islam lying is forbidden.  Allah says in the Quran 'Cursed be the liars' (51:10). Also the Prophet Muhammad said, peace be upon him, 'Lying leads one to wickedness and wickedness leads one to hell. A man keeps lying until Allah records that he is an inveterate liar'. Also the Prophet Muhammad said, peace be upon him, ' A believer's natural disposition might comprise any trait other than treachery and untruthfulness'.  However, there are occasions in Islam that lying may be permitted, the below scholarly discussion explains these exceptions. The text is from classical scholars Imam Nawawi and Imam Ghazali quoted from the book Reliance of the traveler pg 744-746.

[high_treason]

Travis its obvious Dutchphill is not interested in the truth, as I have given him the verse with the tafseer (explaination). He just decides to ignore it and then move on to a political topic, so by his standards all athiests are Nazis, since Nazism is an athiest movement so therefore all Athiests are Nazis.

First of all many people stood with the Nazis. 100,000 Jews in Hitler's army, Russians, Finns, Albanians, Romanians, Africans, Moroccans, Muslims, Christians, as I said before even Jews. The Nazis were a superpower back then which many people allied with or against according to their own agendas, don't forget that while Hitler was dealing the Palestinian Mufti, he was also sending Ships full of Jews with Nazi flags to Palestine.

The most influential party that emulated the Nazis was "Young Egypt," which was founded in October 1933. They had storm troopers, torch processions, and literal translations of Nazi slogans – like "One folk, One party, One leader." Nazi anti-Semitism was replicated, with calls to boycott Jewish businesses and physical attacks on Jews. Britain had a bitter experience with this pro-German mood in Egypt, when the official Egyptian government failed to declare war on the Wehrmacht as German troops were about to conquer Alexandria.

Egypt was a colony of Britian until 1954, We did not have a standing army and were not allowed a standing army and anyone sympethatic to the Nazis was imprisoned, Saddat who tried to contact the Germans in al Alamain was imprisoned and tortured by the British Army which was occupying Egypt at the time. So wherever you got that bullshit from you better check it again. Young Egypt or Misr Al Fatah, was a political party that called for Women's liberation it was made by French educated Egyptians, hear that FRENCH not German, as I am sure you don't know France was not on good terms with Germany until after WW2, The Egyptian, people, government and King were oppossed to British occupation which is natural for anyone with ounce of patriotism, No Jews were not attacked back then and they controlled the movie and media in Egypt until 1950's with the Levon affair and they were kicked out. Get your facts straight!

Secondly as I said before and you choose to avoid answering me that WE DON'T HAVE A LEADERSHIP. So if a Mufti joins an athiest movement it is his choice, if he sees alliances with certain nations its HIS CHOICE. Does not reflect what religion he belongs to.

Thirdly, I am not insulting you when I call you an idiot or a sheep, as what you say reflects just that. You slander and lie about my religion and when I offer you an explaination you ignore it. So what does that make you, you tell me! Unlike you when you insult my religion without any evidence you just say what you've been brainwashed to say.

Now again I am putting my challange to you, if your aim is to insult my religion then make it clear so we would know and deal with it. If your aim is to critisize with facts from the Quran and Sunnah then lets do it, lets debate and I will be as civil as possible and I would expect the same from you. So grow a pair and say what you really want.

[Travis]

High_treason I hear you, but this is a public forum; even though Dutch may have an agenda other than finding the truth I am sure others with sincere hearts can benefit from honest and truthful information.

The entire Nazi thing is ridiculous. WWII was a war thought predominantly by Christian capitalist Europeans with the addition of communist Russians, to attempt to use it to attack Muslims and Islam is foolish and is a tactic often used by Jews. Furthermore, there is a difference between the actions of those who claim Islam and the actual religion.Similar to Naser of Egypt Saddam claimed Islam but in reality was a non-Muslim and an open enemy of Islam. I am sure Dutch is aware that not every action committed by those who claim Islam is actually from the Religion.

I have answered his question in an academic manner and I wait for an academic response.

[high_treason]

I doubt you will get an academic response from him, but I agree with you in the benefit of this topic, I just don't like someone talking out of their ass without any proof or evidence to back their claims and just being insulting and rude, cause that would be trolling which is not acceptable in public forums.

You should also add Jews to the WWII equation since the funding was done by them to Germany and the Allies, even Japan!....WWII was a successful operation by the bankers. They managed to get Palestine, turn Soviet Russia in to a huge empire and silence any opposition to Jewish genocide and control over goys.

I wonder why he doesn't mention the Jews who refused to take German Jews unless they are going to Palestine. Or the ones who forced the US government to deny Jewish refugees from entering the US....is it because of Jewish tolerance?

Or hold on why don't we discuss The Bolshvik revolution?
What are your thoughts on it Dutchphill? Do you think the black pope asked a bunch of Jews to take control over Christian Russia and kill 25 million? Did he tell them to ban all forms of religion? What did salami tell you? come on out with it

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

http://www.wolfmanproductions.com/shaheen.html

His book is a good read.

[DutchPhil]

Dutch said

Speaking of which, does the Koran condone lying, albeit under certain circumstances, or does the Koran prohibit or at least not condone lying under any circumstances?

Does it or does it not?

According To Islam lying is forbidden.  Allah says in the Quran 'Cursed be the liars' (51:10). Also the Prophet Muhammad said, peace be upon him, 'Lying leads one to wickedness and wickedness leads one to hell. A man keeps lying until Allah records that he is an inveterate liar'. Also the Prophet Muhammad said, peace be upon him, ' A believer's natural disposition might comprise any trait other than treachery and untruthfulness'.  However, there are occasions in Islam that lying may be permitted, the below scholarly discussion explains these exceptions. The text is from classical scholars Imam Nawawi and Imam Ghazali quoted from the book Reliance of the traveler pg 744-746.

Thank you Travis for your effort and sincerity as well as your willingness to stay on topic. Please accept my respect as well as appreciation.

From what I gather, the Quran does permit lying under certain conditions after all. The document you provide states unequivocally that it is permissible for Muslims to lie under conditions of war. I want to focus on this particular aspect of lying, at least for the time being.

Is it anywhere defined in the Quran what war is to a Muslim? Does the definition of war include conflicts between one Muslim group and another? Does the definition of war extend to conflicts between Muslim groups and non-Muslim groups, i.e. infidels or Kufar? If the latter goes (too) then basically Muslims find religious support in the acts of deceiving the infidel enemy (deception is fostered by permission to lie). How far does the concept of war stretch? Can it be that as long as there are Kufar, Islam can be said to be in a state of war? If so, then as long as there are infidels, Muslims have enemies, as such they are in a state of war, and thus are permitted to use lying and deception to further their goals (regarding winning the war). Is this train of thought plausible or not? If not, then please point out its holes.

Let it be known that I have no particular agenda whatsoever other than getting at the truth. If you think my questions are to be interpreted as attacks, then this says more about you regarding self-confidence and self-comfort than I. I don't believe in "Holy Cows" (taboo subjects) as well as gagging orders/censorship.

[mastermg]

Thats not the Quran you have there, thats scanned from a book of Quranic interpretations. Every scholar has their own interpretation, hence whats true for someone is false for someone else. Thats not solid proof, point to me where in the Quran, which Sura and Ayah number and also point out a few verses before and after the text, so you dont take it out of context.

[mastermg]

Believe it or not, did you know European Muslims used to hide Jews in their homes from the Nazis? If you have balls Phil, read this http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/919523.html

[high_treason]

Well if you look at your previous posts you will know why I was being hostile to you, that is because you were not being civil in addressing your concerns and you were insulting our beliefs with uninformed opinions. Now that you have improved your  tone I will answer your questions with civility, the concept of war in Islam, there is no such thing as a constant war or whatever, its not the bolshvik revolution. War is only permissible when someone transgresses on us then we are allowed to fight back. For Allah hates the transgressors this is something accepted by all Muslims worldwide.

Here is what the Noble Quran have to say about war:

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Here is what the Noble Quran have to say about relations with non-Muslims in times of peace, war and breaking of treaties

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[22:38] GOD defends those who believe. GOD does not love any betrayer, unappreciative.

[22:39] Permission is granted to those who are being persecuted, since injustice has befallen them, and GOD is certainly able to support them.

[8:55] The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are those who disbelieved; they cannot believe.

[8:56] You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.

[8:57] Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

Furthermore Islam set human rights for times of war 1400 years ago that were later adapted in to the so called "Geneva convention". It defined how to treat prisoners, enemies, civilians, soldiers and even animal rights.

Here is a related article regarding treatment of prisoners in Islam

http://www.islamonline.net/english/intr ... le05.shtml

By IOL Team
 06/05/2004
   
"Treat the prisoners of war kindly."

 
No, this is not a statement in the Geneva Conventions summarizing the rights of POWs. This is the Prophet Muhammad's instruction to his Companions more than 1400 years ago. Islam has set down rules for warfare, detailing when Muslims should fight, whom they should fight, and how they should fight.

In the time of the Prophet Muhammad, the Muslims set an unprecedented standard for the ethics of dealing with captured enemies. They treated prisoners of war in a manner that has yet to be imitated in history. Islam set the basic rule that the captive is protected by his captivity and the wounded by his injury.

Islam instructs Muslims either to free captives who cannot offer ransom (in the form of money or an equivalent number of Muslim captives) or to ransom prisoners of war.[1]

Prisoners of war are not to be humiliated or degraded in any way. They have the right to their human dignity and the right to be protected from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. Sufficient health care should be provided for prisoners who need it. Proper food and clothing should also be provided, as well as sanitary facilities. The Prophet also instructed his Companions to shelter their prisoners from the summer sun and to provide them with water to drink.

Captives are invited to learn about Islam, but they are under no pressure whatsoever to convert.  [There is no compulsion in religion] (Al-Baqarah 2:256) means that sincerity is an essential requirement of one's faith, so, therefore, no one can be coerced to become a Muslim nor should anyone convert to seek some worldly benefit.

The Qur'an describes the righteous:

[And they, though they hold it dear, give sustenance to the indigent, the orphan and the captive. (Saying) we feed you for the sake of God alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.] (Al-Insan 76:8-9)

Relating how the Companions complied strictly with the Prophet's instructions on treating POWs, one of the prisoners of the Battle of Badr[2], Huzayr ibn Humayr, said: "I was with one of the Ansari families, after being taken as captive. Whenever they had lunch or dinner, they used to give me preference by providing me with bread while they'd eat only dates, in compliance with the Prophet's order to treat prisoners well."

Another, Thamama ibn Athal, was taken prisoner and brought to the Prophet, who said, "Be good to him in his captivity." When the Prophet went home, he asked that any food in his house be collected and sent to Thamama.

Each human being has inherent value and distinction as God's creation.
 
Later, the Prophet approached him respectfully and inquired whether Thamama could ransom himself: "What have you, Thamama?" He replied, "Actually I have a lot going for me. If you kill me, you kill a man whose blood will surely be avenged. If you are generous, then you are generous to a man who knows how to be grateful. If you are after money, then ask of me whatever amount you like."

The Prophet left him and on the second day when he approached him, Thamama said basically the same thing. On the third day, the Prophet said, "Let Thamama go."

They unbound him and let him go. He went on his way, quickly took a bath and returned, declaring, "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that you are the Messenger of Allah. O Muhammad! I swear to Allah that there was no man on the face of the Earth whom I hated more than you. Now you have become to me the dearest of men. And I swear by Allah that there was no religion on earth more loathsome to me than your religion, but now it is the most beloved to me of all religions. There was no country on earth more despised by me than your country, yet now I love it more than any other country in the world."[3]

The Islamic ethics of treating prisoners of war is part of the whole system of Islamic ethics, which places utmost importance on the preservation of human dignity and rights. This principle extends from the rights of the unborn child to the rights of women, the elderly, non-Muslims living in a Muslim country, to aggressive enemies captured as prisoners of war. Each human being has inherent value and distinction as God's creation.

Also regarding enemy combatants there are laws that protects the enemy as well:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/intr ... le02.shtml

These are the rights that Islam confers on combatants:

No one should be burned alive or tortured with fire.

Wounded soldiers who are neither unfit to fight, nor actually fighting, should not be attacked.

Prisoners of war should not be killed.

It is prohibited to kill anyone who is tied up or in captivity.

Residential areas should not be pillaged, plundered or destroyed, nor should the Muslims touch the property of anyone except those who are fighting against them.

Muslims must not take anything from the general public of the conquered country without paying for it.

The corpses of the enemy must not be disgraced or mutilated.

Corpses of the enemy should be returned.

Treaties must not be broken.

Muslims are prohibited from opening hostilities without properly declaring war against the enemy, unless the adversary has already started aggression against them.

So as you can see Dutchphill Muslims will not fight anyone unless those people attack us, we don't go looking for conflicts and it is against our beliefs to declare war unjustly and attack other people for no reason. Even if you are not Muslims it doesn't give us the right to fight you, we only fight in self-defence. Does that answer your question?

[DutchPhil]

Believe it or not, did you know European Muslims used to hide Jews in their homes from the Nazis? If you have balls Phil, read this http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/919523.html

And why wouldn't I? I like stories where people save other people as much as the next guy...

I took note of the existence of the story, thanks for posting.

[DutchPhil]

Thats not the Quran you have there, thats scanned from a book of Quranic interpretations. Every scholar has their own interpretation, hence whats true for someone is false for someone else. Thats not solid proof, point to me where in the Quran, which Sura and Ayah number and also point out a few verses before and after the text, so you dont take it out of context.

Alright, fair enough, I take it then that you think Quran prohibits lying in general? Or are there certain exceptions? If so, could you please state which they are, where they are to be found in the Quran and what the context(s) is(are) that permit a Muslim to lie?

[DutchPhil]

Well if you look at your previous posts you will know why I was being hostile to you, that is because you were not being civil in addressing your concerns and you were insulting our beliefs with uninformed opinions. Now that you have improved your  tone I will answer your questions with civility, the concept of war in Islam, there is no such thing as a constant war or whatever, its not the bolshvik revolution. War is only permissible when someone transgresses on us then we are allowed to fight back. For Allah hates the transgressors this is something accepted by all Muslims worldwide.

Here is what the Noble Quran have to say about war:

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Here is what the Noble Quran have to say about relations with non-Muslims in times of peace, war and breaking of treaties

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[22:38] GOD defends those who believe. GOD does not love any betrayer, unappreciative.

[22:39] Permission is granted to those who are being persecuted, since injustice has befallen them, and GOD is certainly able to support them.

[8:55] The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are those who disbelieved; they cannot believe.

[8:56] You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.

[8:57] Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

Furthermore Islam set human rights for times of war 1400 years ago that were later adapted in to the so called "Geneva convention". It defined how to treat prisoners, enemies, civilians, soldiers and even animal rights.

Here is a related article regarding treatment of prisoners in Islam

http://www.islamonline.net/english/intr ... le05.shtml

By IOL Team
 06/05/2004
   
"Treat the prisoners of war kindly."

 
No, this is not a statement in the Geneva Conventions summarizing the rights of POWs. This is the Prophet Muhammad's instruction to his Companions more than 1400 years ago. Islam has set down rules for warfare, detailing when Muslims should fight, whom they should fight, and how they should fight.

In the time of the Prophet Muhammad, the Muslims set an unprecedented standard for the ethics of dealing with captured enemies. They treated prisoners of war in a manner that has yet to be imitated in history. Islam set the basic rule that the captive is protected by his captivity and the wounded by his injury.

Islam instructs Muslims either to free captives who cannot offer ransom (in the form of money or an equivalent number of Muslim captives) or to ransom prisoners of war.[1]

Prisoners of war are not to be humiliated or degraded in any way. They have the right to their human dignity and the right to be protected from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. Sufficient health care should be provided for prisoners who need it. Proper food and clothing should also be provided, as well as sanitary facilities. The Prophet also instructed his Companions to shelter their prisoners from the summer sun and to provide them with water to drink.

Captives are invited to learn about Islam, but they are under no pressure whatsoever to convert.  [There is no compulsion in religion] (Al-Baqarah 2:256) means that sincerity is an essential requirement of one's faith, so, therefore, no one can be coerced to become a Muslim nor should anyone convert to seek some worldly benefit.

The Qur'an describes the righteous:

[And they, though they hold it dear, give sustenance to the indigent, the orphan and the captive. (Saying) we feed you for the sake of God alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.] (Al-Insan 76:8-9)

Relating how the Companions complied strictly with the Prophet's instructions on treating POWs, one of the prisoners of the Battle of Badr[2], Huzayr ibn Humayr, said: "I was with one of the Ansari families, after being taken as captive. Whenever they had lunch or dinner, they used to give me preference by providing me with bread while they'd eat only dates, in compliance with the Prophet's order to treat prisoners well."

Another, Thamama ibn Athal, was taken prisoner and brought to the Prophet, who said, "Be good to him in his captivity." When the Prophet went home, he asked that any food in his house be collected and sent to Thamama.

Each human being has inherent value and distinction as God's creation.
 
Later, the Prophet approached him respectfully and inquired whether Thamama could ransom himself: "What have you, Thamama?" He replied, "Actually I have a lot going for me. If you kill me, you kill a man whose blood will surely be avenged. If you are generous, then you are generous to a man who knows how to be grateful. If you are after money, then ask of me whatever amount you like."

The Prophet left him and on the second day when he approached him, Thamama said basically the same thing. On the third day, the Prophet said, "Let Thamama go."

They unbound him and let him go. He went on his way, quickly took a bath and returned, declaring, "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that you are the Messenger of Allah. O Muhammad! I swear to Allah that there was no man on the face of the Earth whom I hated more than you. Now you have become to me the dearest of men. And I swear by Allah that there was no religion on earth more loathsome to me than your religion, but now it is the most beloved to me of all religions. There was no country on earth more despised by me than your country, yet now I love it more than any other country in the world."[3]

The Islamic ethics of treating prisoners of war is part of the whole system of Islamic ethics, which places utmost importance on the preservation of human dignity and rights. This principle extends from the rights of the unborn child to the rights of women, the elderly, non-Muslims living in a Muslim country, to aggressive enemies captured as prisoners of war. Each human being has inherent value and distinction as God's creation.

Also regarding enemy combatants there are laws that protects the enemy as well:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/intr ... le02.shtml

These are the rights that Islam confers on combatants:

No one should be burned alive or tortured with fire.

Wounded soldiers who are neither unfit to fight, nor actually fighting, should not be attacked.

Prisoners of war should not be killed.

It is prohibited to kill anyone who is tied up or in captivity.

Residential areas should not be pillaged, plundered or destroyed, nor should the Muslims touch the property of anyone except those who are fighting against them.

Muslims must not take anything from the general public of the conquered country without paying for it.

The corpses of the enemy must not be disgraced or mutilated.

Corpses of the enemy should be returned.

Treaties must not be broken.

Muslims are prohibited from opening hostilities without properly declaring war against the enemy, unless the adversary has already started aggression against them.

So as you can see Dutchphill Muslims will not fight anyone unless those people attack us, we don't go looking for conflicts and it is against our beliefs to declare war unjustly and attack other people for no reason. Even if you are not Muslims it doesn't give us the right to fight you, we only fight in self-defence. Does that answer your question?

It certainly was informative. Thank you for your extensive response high_treason. I will take it all in and let it simmer in my head for a bit. I will do best to not come on too strong again as I believe civil discourses get a lot more done in furthering (mutual) understanding.

So thanks again.

[high_treason]

Prohibition of lying in Islam is available both in the Sunnah and the Noble Quran, I have also attached a Khutba by Yusuf Estes that talk about lying. Special circumstances are explained below.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/alive/av/N ... %20Lie.mp3

From the Sunnah some Hadiths about lying:

The Prophet Mohammed (Salwat Allah Alaih we Salam) said:

"Lying is not good, whether in seriousness or jest."

"Do not ever lie, because lying leads to very abhorrent sins, and those in turn lead to Hellfire. One keeps on lying and seeks to do that until one is recorded as a liar in some books of Allah."

 "False testimony is similar to claiming that Allah has partners." (Which is equals to Shirk the greatest sin of them all to us Muslims)

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Truthfulness is righteousness, and righteousness leads to  Paradise. A person will continue to tell the truth until he is written with Allaah as one who tells the truth. Lying is evildoing, and evildoing leads to Hell. A person will keep on telling lies until he is written as a liar.
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 5743; Muslim, 2607)  

Also the most well known Hadith regarding Liars is:

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: the signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust;
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59)  

From the Noble Quran some of the verses that talk about liars and punishment:

[9:75] Some of them even pledged: "If GOD showered us with His grace, we would be charitable, and would lead a righteous life."

[9:76] But when He did shower them with His provisions, they became stingy, and turned away in aversion.

[9:77] Consequently, He plagued them with hypocrisy in their hearts, till the day they meet Him. This is because they broke their promises to GOD, and because of their lying.

[9:78] Do they not realize that GOD knows their secrets, and their conspiracies, and that GOD is the Knower of all secrets?

[9:79] Those who criticize the generous believers for giving too much, and ridicule the poor believers for giving too little, GOD despises them. They have incurred a painful retribution.

[16:105] The only ones who fabricate false doctrines are those who do not believe in GOD's revelations; they are the real liars.

2:8] Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers.

[2:9] In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.

[2:10] In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.

So those were some Hadiths and verses from the Noble Quran that prohibit lying and make lying a great sin. What you are talking about is what is called special conditions. Since Islam is the only religion that has a structure for social, political, economical and government and it understands the need of the humanbeings and circumstances there are special occassions, when the you are faced with two evils and you have absolutely no choice then you can choose the lesser of the two. Which doesn't make it right but it prevents a worse fate.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/lies/rulin ... t_lies.asp

According to Shari'ah, lying is not permitted except in specific cases which do not lead to loss of rights, bloodshed or slander of peoples honor, etc., but which concern saving lives, reconciling between people, or creating love between husband and wife.  

Special circumstances does not make it a norm, it also doesn't change the fact that it is a sin. Like if a Muslim is left in a place with no food but pork and drink but alcohol, he is allowed to eat and drink both since it is a special circumstance. I hope this helped you understand.

[mastermg]

Sorry for being rude Phil, I thought you would turn out like someone else (hard headed).
The relationship exception is like:
oes this dress make me look fat?
:Not really honey.
Thats what its talking about.