Is the "Khazar" thing legit?

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

I think people get a little ahead of themselves when they state as fact that 80-90% of world jewry are of khazar origin. It's not a fact but a theory. Most people just accept this at face value having done either none, or very little research. I personally have done almost zero research on the subject and don't particularly find it that interesting or important. But what are the sources for this claim?

Is the Khazar "thing" legit? Yes. Is the Khazar thing relevant to anything today? No.

I see many newby anti-Zionists getting caught up in this fruitless debate.

[Panoptimist]

Well what hope is there then for those who are unwilling to accept this entire problem in its necessary religious context?

For some reason the idea of religion throws anyone off of this trail. It's not particularly important to distinguish between any peoples who consider the Talmud a legitimate and sacred/religious doctrine, but it is interesting to know that there is a major physical difference between different groups. The same goes for Christianity, indeed, but what then explains the prevailing "Ashkenazi gene?"

Besides, that's not the point. We see that even cryptos inherently possess a certain destructive mentality. But it is certainly to consider what is responsible for the general barbaric disposition of most Yudes.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Found this recently.

From what can be determined, the Khazars, Huns, and "Alans"  lived in very close proximity in the early 600s AD and all took part in the earlier "Hun" invasions of the Europe. Linking Chinese accounts with European accounts can help identify the "Khazars" linguistically, culturally and "racially":

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html
http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars_2.html

In defining the origins of the Ashkenazim, Alan Brook states that "The geographic location of the Ashkenaz, based on references in the Torah, may be centered around southern Russia, Armenia, and Asia Minor. The ashkaenoi (askae or askai) were the people also known as Phrygians or Mysians (Meshech)." Some historians claim that the name Ashkenaz applies exclusively to German Jews. However, more recent evidence shows that they had immigrated from the southern regions of Russia and western Asia and Asia Minor -- that region clearly identified as the location and origin of the ancient Khazars. The name originally indicated Iranians and was later given as the name of the god of Meshech, Men Askaenos. "It should also be pointed out," Brook adds, "that Ashkenaz did not become a definite Jewish designation for Germany until the eleventh century." 62

    "According to the explanation by the Talmud," writes Hugo Freiherr, "Ashkenaz thus means a country near the Black Sea between Ararat and the Caucasus, within the original region of the Khazar empire." 63 This, again, is precisely the geographic locality of the Khazarian empire. The Talmudic observation is abetted by Scripture which names Ashkenaz as descending not from Shem but from Japheth through Gomer, and whose uncles were Magog and Tubal. (See Gen. 10:3)

    Ashkenaz (alt. spelling: Ashchenaz) is mentioned in but one scripture other than 1 Chronicles 6:1, which is only another reference to the genealogy as descending from Japheth. In the book of Jeremiah the prophet, God announces that Israel is to call upon other nations as allies in bringing His judgments against Babylon. Among those allies, who are not part of Israel or Judah, and therefore could not be numbered as Jews, is Ashchenaz. (See Jer. 51:27)

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The Alans or Alani (occasionally termed Alauni or Halani) were a group of Sarmatian tribes, nomadic pastoralists of the 1st millennium AD who spoke an Eastern Iranian language which derived from Scytho-Sarmatian and which in turn evolved into modern Ossetian.[1][2][3]

Chinese Descriptions of the Yancai and Kang people (Indo-European-Alans) living next to the Khazars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yancai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangju
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians (later Hungarian invaders)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

The Ossetians descend from the Alans–Sarmatians, a Scythian tribe.[12][13] About A.D. 200, the Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion, and the Alans remaining built up a great kingdom between the Don and the Volga, according to Coon, The Races of Europe. Between A.D. 350 and 374, the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom, and a few survive to this day in the Caucasus as the Ossetes. They became Christians under Byzantine[14] and Georgian influence. A small number adopted Sunni Islam.

In the 8th century a consolidated Alan kingdom, referred to in sources of the period as Alania, emerged in the northern Caucasus Mountains, roughly in the location of the latter-day Circassia and the modern North Ossetia-Alania. At its height, Alania was a centralized monarchy with a strong military force and benefited from the Silk Road.

Forced out of their medieval homeland (south of the River Don in present-day Russia) during Mongol rule, Alans migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, where they formed three ethnic groups.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
The Yuezhi, or Rouzhi (Chinese: 月支; pinyin: yuè zhī or ròu zhī; also Chinese: 月氏; pinyin: yuè shì or ròu shì; Old Chinese: Tokwar),[5] also known as the Da Yuezhi or Da Rouzhi (Chinese: 大月支, dà yuè zhī or dà ròu zhī, "Great Yuezhi"), were an ancient Central Asian people.

They are believed by most scholars to have been an Indo-European people[6] and may have been the same as or closely related to the Tocharians[7] (Τοχάριοι) of Classical sources.[8] They were originally settled in the arid grasslands of the eastern Tarim Basin area, in what is today Xinjiang and western Gansu, in China, before they migrated to Transoxiana, Bactria and then northern South Asia, where they may have had a part in forming the Kushan Empire.
Ancient Chinese sources do describe the existence of "white people with long hair" (the Bai people of the Shan Hai Jing) beyond their northwestern border. Very well-preserved Tarim mummies with Caucasian features, today displayed at the Ürümqi Museum and dated to the 3rd century BCE, were found at the ancient oasis on the Silk Road, Niya.[24] However, the attribution of reddish or blond hair to these mummies may be in error, since the reddish color can occurs as a result of decomposition over several hundred years (for example, even African mummies also have so-called reddish hair but are clearly not White or European). Notwithstanding, genetic testing and skull examples have shown conclusively that Caucasian genetic material is present in this area. Blond hair among the Tocharian mummies is common, and, even today, blond hair is not uncommon in the Uyghur populations living there.

Evidence of the Indo-European Tocharian languages also has been found in the same geographical area, Although the first known epigraphic evidence dates to the 6th century CE, the degree of differentiation between Tocharian A and Tocharian B and the absence of Tocharian language remains beyond that area suggest that a common Tocharian language existed in the same area of Yuezhi settlement during the second half of the 1st millennium BCE.

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Some of the other Alans remained under the rule of the Huns. Those of the eastern division, though dispersed about the steppes until late medieval times, were forced by the Mongols into the Caucasus, where they remain as the Ossetians. Between the 9th and 12th centuries, they formed a network of tribal alliances that gradually evolved into the Christian kingdom of Alania. Most Alans submitted to the Mongol Empire in 1239–1277. They participated in Mongol invasions of Europe and the Song Dynasty in Southern China, and the Battle of Kulikovo under Mamai of the Golden Horde[24].

In 1253, the Franciscan monk William of Rubruck reported numerous Europeans in Central Asia. It is also known that 30,000 Alans formed the royal guard (Asud) of the Yuan court in Dadu (Beijing). Marco Polo later reported their role in the Yuan Dynasty in his book Il Milione. It's said that those Alans contributed to a modern Mongol clan, Asud. John of Montecorvino, archbishop of Dadu (Khanbaliq), reportedly converted many Alans to Roman Catholic Christianity.[25][26]

In Cathay and the Way Thither, 1866, Henry Yule writes:

The Alans were known to the Chinese by that name, in the ages immediately preceding and following the Christian era, as dwelling near the Aral, in which original position they are believed to have been closely akin to, if not identical with, the famous Massagetæ. Hereabouts also Ptolemy (vi, 14) appears to place the Alani-Scythæ, and Alanæan Mountains. From about 40 B.C. the emigrations of the Alans seem to have been directed westward to the Lower Don; here they are placed in the first century by Josephus and by the Armenian writers; and hence they are found issuing in the third century to ravage the rich provinces of Asia Minor. In 376 the deluge of the Huns on its westward course came upon the Alans and overwhelmed them. Great numbers of Alans are found to have joined the conquerors on their further progress, and large bodies of Alans afterwards swelled the waves of Goths, Vandals, and Sueves, that rolled across the Western Empire. A portion of the Alans, however, after the Hun invasion retired into the plains adjoining Caucasus, and into the lower valleys of that region, where they maintained the name and nationality which the others speedily lost. Little is heard of these Caucasian Alans for many centuries, except occasionally as mercenary soldiers of the Byzantine emperors or the [p. 316] Persian kings. In the thirteenth century they made a stout resistance to the Mongol conquerors, and though driven into the mountains they long continued their forays on the tracts subjected to the Tartar dynasty that settled on the Wolga, so that the Mongols had to maintain posts with strong garrisons to keep them in check. They were long redoutable both as warriors and as armourers, but by the end of the fourteenth century they seem to have come thoroughly under the Tartar rule; for they fought on the side of Toctamish Khan of Sarai against the great Timur.[17]

Recently some Chinese-European people were in the news:

Cai Junnian's green eyes give a hint he may be a descendant of Roman mercenaries who allegedly fought the Han Chinese 2,000 years ago
(Probably a lost tribe of ancient Tocharian..IMHO)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... diers.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians
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Interesting runic letter of the Star of David from the Xiongnu people of Western China.  They were known as Huns by the Chinese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

The Turks (or Turkics) are peoples residing in northern, central and western Asia, Mongolia, southern Siberia and northwestern China and parts of eastern Europe. They speak languages belonging to the Turkic language family. They share, to varying degrees, certain cultural traits and historical backgrounds. The term Turkic represents a broad ethno-linguistic group of people including existing societies such as the Chuvashes, Kazakhs, Tatars, Kyrgyzs, Turkish, Turkmen, Uyghur, Uzbeks, Bashkirs, Qashqai, Gagauzs, Yakuts, Crimean Karaites, Krymchaks, Karakalpaks, Karachays, Krymchaks, Nogais and as well as past civilizations such as the Kumans, Kipchaks, Avars, Turgeshs, Seljuks, Khazars, Ottomans, Mamluks, Timurids, and possibly the Xiongnu and Huns

According to Mahmud of Kashgar, an eleventh century Turkic scholar, and various other traditional Islamic scholars and historians, the name "Turk" stems from Tur, one of the sons of Japheth, and comes from the same lineage as Gomer (Cimmerians) and Ashkenaz (Scythians, Ishkuz) who, according to tradition, were some of the earliest Turks.

The Hun hordes of Attila, who invaded and conquered much of Europe in the 5th century, might have been Turkic and descendants of the Xionghu. Some scholars argue that the Huns were one of the earlier Turkic tribes, while others argue that they were of Mongolic origin. linguistic studies by Otto Maenchen-Helfen's support a Turkic origin.

However, there were also (and still are) small groups of Turkic people belonging to other religions, including Christians, Jews (Khazars), Buddhists, and Zoroastrians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

Khazar is a Turk language:

The Oghur languages (also known as Ogur, Oghur, Oguric Oghuric, Oghur-Turkic, and Lir-Turkic, dj-type, j=type), are a separate branch of the Turkic language family. It is the most divergent branch of the Turkic languages. None have survived to the present day, with the exception of Chuvash.

Subgrouping

A tentative subgrouping results in the following list of languages:

    * Khazar
    * Eurasian Avar
    * Bulgar
    * Hunnic
    * Chuvash
[/quote]

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

The religious belief of "Tengri" is an interesting link:

Tengri


Tengri (Proto-Turkic *teŋri / *taŋrɨ, from a Proto-Altaic *taŋgiri meaning oath or sky), is one of the names for the primary chief deity in the religion of the early Turkic (Xiongnu, Hunnic, Bulgar) and Mongolic (Xianbei) peoples.

Worship of Tengri is sometimes referred to as Tengriism. The core beings in Tengriism are Sky-Father (Tengri/Tenger Etseg) and Mother Earth (Eje/Gazar Eej). It involved shamanism, animism, totemism and ancestor worship.

Name

The oldest form of the name is recorded in Chinese annals of the 4th century BC, describing the beliefs of the Xiongnu. It takes the form cheng-li, which is identifed as the regular Chinese transcription of tängri. Later Chinese sources give a trisyllabic teng-ning-li or teng-yi-li.[1]

The Proto-Turkic form of the word is reconstructed as *teŋri or *taŋrɨ. The cognate Mongolian taŋɣaraɣ means "oath". Stefan Georg (2001) has suggested an ultimately Yeniseian origin, from a *tɨŋgVr- "high". Alternatively, an Altaic etymology *t`aŋgiri "oath, god" would mean that the meaning "god" is primary, and "sky" secondary.[2] The Turkic form, Tengri, is attested in the 11th century by Mahmud al-Kashgari.

The Chinese word for "sky", Tian, may also be related, possibly a loan from a prehistoric Central Asian language.[3]

In modern Turkey Tengriism is known as the Gök Tanrı ("sky god") religion,[citation needed] Turkish "Gök" (sky) and "Tanrı" (God) corresponding to the Mongolian khukh (blue) and Tengri (sky), respectively.

In modern Turkish, the derived word "Tanrı" is used as the generic word for "god", or for the Abrahamic God, and is often used today by Muslim Turks to refer to God in Turkish as an alternative to the word "Allah", the Arabic word.

Other reflexes of the name in modern languages include Mongolian: Тэнгэр, Bulgarian: Тангра, Azerbaijani: Tanrı. The supreme deity of the traditional religion of the Chuvash is Tură.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri

The Khazar religious structure centered around a shamanism known as Tengri, which incorporated the worship of spirits and the sky as well as zoolatry, the worship of animals. Tengri was also the name of their "immortal god who created the world," and the primary animal sacrifices made to this deity were horses. 30

    The actual mechanics of the Khazarian kingdom's turn to Judaism was, most historians agree, rather well thought out -- from a humanistic perspective at least -- rather than random and capricious as some have believed.

    According to George Vernadski, in his book A History of Russia, in AD 860 a delegation of Khazars were sent to Constantinople (now known as Istanbul), which was then what remained of the ancient capitol of the old Roman Empire turned Christian under the Emperor Constantine. Their message was:

    We have known God the Lord of everything [referring here to Tengri] from time immemorial ... and now the Jews are urging us to accept their religion and customs, and the Arabs, on their part, draw us to their faith, promising us peace and many gifts. 31

    This appeal, in all its implications, was obviously made for the purpose of drawing the Christian Roman Empire into the debate with an eye perhaps toward a balanced argument amongst the major monotheistic religions.

    Brook makes the observation that "this statement reveals that the Jews were actively seeking converts in Khazaria in 860." He also adds that "in the year 860, [Christian] Saints Cyril and Methodius were sent as missionaries to the Khazars by the Byzantine emperor Michael III .... since the Khazars had requested that a Christian scholar come to Khazaria to debate with the Jews and Muslims." 32

    Inasmuch as the world has seldom (or perhaps never) witnessed any culture of people more adept at the art of religious debate than rabbinical Jews, the Khazar's conversion to Talmudic Judaism is not a surprising outcome, given that such a forum was to be the determining factor in their choice, rather than purely spiritual perceptions. The outcome was even further assured by the fact that the Christian representatives in the debate came from a church in the latter formative years of the Holy Roman Empire in which, by that time, spiritual sensitivity had become somewhat rare to nearly extinct.

It is believed by scholars that the dream was designed to simulate the Covenant in Genesis and meant to imply "that the Khazars too claimed the status of a Chosen Race, who made their own Covenant with the Lord, even though they were not descended from Abraham's seed." 41 [emphasis supplied]

    King Joseph corroborates this in his document as he claims to have positively traced his family's ancestry back, not to Shem the father of the "Shemites" or Semite peoples, but to another of Noah's sons. "Though a fierce Jewish nationalist, proud of wielding the 'sceptre ofJudah'," Koestler says, "he cannot, and does not, claim for them Semitic descent; he traces their ancestry...to...Noah's third son, Japheth; or more precisely to Japheth's grandson, Togarma, the ancestor of all Turkish tribes."

    Koestler adds a footnote to King Joseph's genealogical claims that is piercingly relevant to this study: "It also throws a sidelight on the frequent description of the Khazars as the people of Magog. Magog, according to Genesis 10:2-3 was the much maligned uncle of Togarma." Add to this that two other of the sons of Japheth, the progenitor of the Khazars, are Meshech and Tubal, central figures in biblical prophecies of the end times.

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html

[/quote]

Descendants

Geographic identifications of Flavius Josephus, c. 100 AD; Japheth's sons shown in red

In the Bible, Japheth is ascribed seven sons: Gomer, Magog, Tiras, Javan, Meshech, Tubal, and Madai. According to Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews I.6):

    "Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tanais (Don), and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names."

Josephus subsequently detailed the nations supposed to have descended from the seven sons of Japheth. Among the nations various later writers have attempted to assign to them are as follows:[citation needed]

    * Gomer: Armenians, Cimmerians, Scythians, Welsh, Irish, Germans, Huns, Franks, Turks.
    * Magog: Scythians, Slavs, Mongols, Hungarians, Irish, Finns, Pamiris, Pashtuns
    * Madai: Medes, Indo-Iranians, Mitanni, Mannai, Persian , Tajiks, Balochis, Talishis, Mazandaris, Sengesaris and Tati. According to the Book of Jubilees (10:35-36), Madai had married a daughter of Shem, and preferred to live among Shem's descendants, rather than dwell in Japheth's allotted inheritance beyond the Black Sea; so he begged his brothers-in-law, Elam, Asshur and Arphaxad, until he finally received from them the land that was named after him, Media.
    * Javan: Greeks (Ionians)
    * Tubal: Tabal, Tibareni, Georgians, Italics, Iberians, Basques
    * Tiras: Thracians, Goths, Jutes, Teutons
    * Meshech: Phrygians, Illyrians, Caucasian Iberia, Russians

The "Book of Jasher", published in the 17th century, provides some new names for Japheth's grandchildren not seen in the Bible or any other source, and provided a much more detailed genealogy (see Japhetic).

Ethnic legends

In the seventh century, Isidore of Seville published his noted history, in which he traces the origins of most of the nations of Europe back to Japheth.[1] Scholars in almost every European nation continuted to repeat and improve upon Saint Isidore's assertion of descent from Noah through Japheth into the nineteenth century.[2]

Georgian nationalist histories associate Japheth's sons with certain ancient tribes, called Tubals (Tabals, Tibarenoi in Greek) and Meshechs (Meshekhs/Mosokhs, Moschoi in Greek), who they claim represent non-Indo-European and non-Semitic, possibly "Proto-Iberian" tribes of Asia Minor of the 3rd-1st millennia BC.

In the Polish tradition of Sarmatism, the Sarmatians were said to be descended from Japheth, son of Noah, enabling the Polish nobility to imagine themselves able to trace their ancestry directly to Noah.[2]

In Scotland, histories tracing the Scottish people to Japheth were published as late as George Chalmers well received Caledonia, published in 3 volumes from 1807 to 1824.[3]

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Found this interesting...

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http://christogenea.org/Radio%20YCP/YCP ... ws-DNA.mp3

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Topic: The British Israel World Federation (BIWF), the jews, Judah, and DNA.

This program addresses the BIWF paper found at http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/showart.php?id=46

William Finck's notes:

First, the language of DNA researchers has been built from the ground up by evolutionists who have many preconceived notions that lead to false assumptions. They define certain features of DNA as "mutations" (although they have never really witnessed as much) and they define a series of differences as "genetic drift" (although they have never actually seen genes drift).  Scientists guess that these "mutations" occurred 15, 25, or as long as 60 thousand years ago.  So reading any articles which discuss DNA, one must be careful not to fall into the language-trap that has been devised into making the false theory of evolution sound as if it is inevitable.

Also, genetic research assumes that the people in areas today, excluding Europeans, have always inhabited those areas.  So therefore arabs and jews are wrongly labelled "Semites", and the mixed-race peoples found today in the Caucasus Mountain regions are considered Caucasians, a term formerly used of White people exclusively.

The bottom line to me is that there are indeed certain genetic groups among humans whose DNA reveal them to be closely related, or not closely related.  The best interpretation of the origins of these groups is not emotional inference or the guesswork of the evolutionists, but rather History, Archaeology and the Bible.

There are different genetic Haplogroups for Y-Chromosome (male) DNA (Y-DNA) and for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).  Here we will be concerned only with the Y-DNA.  There are many different groups of Y-DNA found spread over the globe.  Here we will only be concerned with those types found in Europe.

Be it known that there are many other haplogroups found in all of the areas mentioned below which are outside of Europe, and that those types are not found in Europe at all. Those haplogroups belonging exclusively to non-Whites shall not be discussed here.

Haplogroup I (M170, P19, M258) (widespread in Europe, found infrequently in parts of the Middle East, and virtually absent elsewhere [3])

Haplogroup I1 (M253, M307, P30, P40) (Northern Europe)

Haplogroup I2 (S31) (Central and Southeast Europe, Sardinia)

Haplogroup J (M304) (the Middle East, Turkey, Caucasus, Italy, Greece, the Balkans, North and Northeast Africa)

Haplogroup J* (Mainly found in Socotra [an island in the Indian Ocean off the southern coast of Yemen], with a few observations in Pakistan, Oman, Greece, Czechia, and among Turkic peoples)

Haplogroup J1 (M267) (Mostly associated with Semitic peoples in the Middle East, Ethiopia, and North Africa, and with Northeast Caucasian peoples in Dagestan; J1 with DYS388=13 is associated with eastern Anatolia)

Haplogroup J2 (M172) (Mainly found in West Asia, Central Asia, South Asia, Southern Europe, and North Africa)

Haplogroup L (M11, M20, M22, M61, M185, M295) (South Asia, Central Asia, Southwestern Asia, the Mediterranean)

Haplogroup N (M231) (northernmost Eurasia, especially among the Uralic peoples)

Haplogroup R (M207)

Haplogroup R1 (M173)

Haplogroup R1a (M17) (Central Asia, South Asia, and Central, Northern, and Eastern Europe)

Haplogroup R1b (M343) (Western, Southern, and Northern Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia, South Asia)

Haplogroup R2 (M124) (South Asia, Caucasus, Central Asia)

Haplogroup T - (North Africa, Horn of Africa, Southwest Asia, the Mediterranean, South Asia); formerly known as Haplogroup K2

Here it is revealed that Whites have basically two main Haplogroup types found in their populations, the I type and the R type.  The R type is found not only in Europe, but also in areas that Whites are known historically to have once inhabited in large numbers , such as the Caucasus and Southwest Asia, or to have made incursions into, such as South and Central Asia.

It is also revealed that jews have basically the J haplogroup type, which they share with the arabs and which is found in many places that the arabs are known to have invaded in significant numbers during the Islamic conquests: Anatolia, the Caucasus, southern Europe, and northern Africa. The L haplogroup is easily accounted for in the Turks who invaded the Mediterranean regions after migrating from Asia.

Clifton's Notes and Questions:

QUESTIONS ABOUT BRITISH-ISRAEL'S

ACCEPTANCE OF EVOLUTION

Haplogroup Issue by Martin Lightfoot states: "Modern genetic findings are providing some very interesting information about the populations settled in different parts of the world. There are claims that these findings are inconsistent with British-Israel teaching but this article contests them and puts forward the following evidence."

Question: Just what is the nature of these supposed "modern genetic findings" that are "inconsistent" with teachings of British-Israel?

Haplogroup Issue by Martin Lightfoot states: "This is an introduction to the topic for those new to the subject and does not pretend to be an exhaustive study. Recombination is the process by which each parent contributes half of an offspring's DNA, creating a new genetic identity. Inside the nucleus of each cell of each individual there are the chromosomes in which there are long strands of DNA. Each human cell has 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. One chromosome of each pair is inherited from the mother, the other from the father.. The X and Y chromosomes determine the sex of the person. Females have two X chromosomes while males have one X and one Y. So if the male contributes an X the offspring will be female, if a Y then the offspring will be male. The male Y chromosome is passed on from father to son virtually unchanged other than the very rare possibility of a mutation occurring. A mutation is a structural alteration in the DNA."

Question: What's all of this business about a "rare possibility of a mutation occurring"? The bible teaches that everything reproduces "kind after kind at Gen. 1:21, 24, 25; Gen. 6:20; Gen. 7:14; Lev. 11:14-16, 22 & Deut. 14:13-14! Yes there can be a mutation, and it is called "Down's syndrome"! The following is what I wrote in my paper, "Telegony, Fact or Fiction:

The 23 chromosomes of the male are paired to the 23 chromosomes of the female, and are directly opposite each other in each cell's helix. Therefore, there is no way the male sperm could modify the 23 chromosome contribution of the female. Under such a hypothetical condition as Jones and Flint suggest, the chromosomes would be so misaligned and confused, if a next pregnancy were to occur, it would only result in a genetically deformed disorderly mass of twisted flesh. We only have to look at Down's syndrome for comparison. For this, we will again use Collier's Encyclopedia, vol. 16, pages 454-455:

"MONGOLISM, now usually called Down's syndrome, a development disorder characterized by mental retardation as well as by abnormalities of bone growth and other physical malformations ... The disorder is characterized by the presence of physical traits that are normal at an early stage of fetal development. Among these fetal traits are the narrow, slanting eyes which give such cases a superficial resemblance to Asiatic races ... Down's syndrome actually has no racial connotations, but is a pathological condition that may occur in any human race ...

"Causes. Although many factors have been proposed as causes of Down's syndrome, it has now been established that persons with this disorder typically have 47 chromosomes instead of the normal 46. The occurrence of the additional chromosome results from an abnormality in the process of reproductive cell formation. In the normal process of reproductive cell division, one member of each chromosome pair goes to each cell ... In Down's syndrome, the failure of one specific chromosome pair to separate (non-disjunction) results in the occurrence of that particular chromosome in triplicate in the offspring ..." If only one misplaced chromosome can cause that much havoc, consider the complications that would result under Jones' imagined concept.

Further, what would be the implications of a mutation if Mary the mother of Christ contributed the normal 23 chromosomes and the Holy Spirit only one as Ron Wyatt conjectures? Come on now, what would happen with 22 of Mary's egg chromosomes that were unconnected to the normal process of the male's matching chromosomes? That would be Down's syndrome multiplied 22 times! What kind of misfit would that have made our Redeemer? I don't say this very often, but Ron Wyatt is a Fool with a capital "F", and a Fraud with a capital "F"!

Haplogroup Issue by Martin Lightfoot states: "Haplogroups are a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor with a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) mutation: ... 'SNPs are a change in a single nucleotide in a chromosome and occur infrequently; once they occur they are stable and typically define a whole chromosome and become its signature.' ... A haplotype is a set of closely linked genetic markers present on one chromosome which tend to be inherited together. The haplogroups are like genetic branches on the family tree of Homo Sapiens. These branches characterize the early migrations of population groups and therefore haplogroups are associated with geographic regions. A Y DNA haplogroup is all of the male descendants of a male who first showed a particular SNP mutation in his Y chromosome. The Y Haplogroups of the World 2005 research map by J D McDonald shows the distribution of the different groups throughout the world.

Question: What does Martin Lightfoot mean by a "common ancestor"? If one will go to the website http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=11, one will find a lengthy presentation both in U-tube and text that this "common ancestor" first appeared in Cameroon, Africa 200,000 years ago! The Bible tells us that Yahweh created Adam-kind about 7,500 years ago according to Septuagint reckoning from the dust of the earth, and breathed into him the breath of life! Which are we to believe, today's Canaanite-jewish evolution or the Bible? Why is British-Israel following Yair Davidiy (an Edomite-Canaanite-jew) rather than Holy Writ?

Haplogroup Issue by Martin Lightfoot states: "Furthermore, some combination does occur between the Y and X chromosomes. The Stanford School of Medicine 6 suggests that the Y chromosome not only recombines with up to 5% of the X, it also recombines with its own Y duplicate DNA. There is a need to find evidence that the progression from one haplogroup to another is most likely to have gone from a 'developed' haplogroup (such as R or N) by losing DNA information. This does accord with decades of scientific research into both observed and artificially induced mutations which demonstrate that mutations involve a loss of DNA information."

At http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=11 one will find written: Y-DNA Haplogroup R, 'Spanning the Seven Seas' ... 'All males can trace their Y-DNA lineage back to a theoretical Y-DNA prototype, which originated in Africa and is thought to have migrated out of Africa over 60,000 years ago (60kya). Although the Y-DNA is usually inherited from father to son without any changes, occasionally differences arise via mutations. Since these mutations or variations add up through generations, the more differences that are found when comparing DNA, equals more time elapsed and more genetic distance. Armed with information about the rates, types and number of variations we can create lineage maps or phylogenetic trees and make calculated estimates to trace our roots back to our forebears (e.g. to find the time to most recent common ancestor, TMRCA aka coalescence)."

The British-Israel World Federation article called "The Israel Identity Haplogroup Issue" addressed by Clifton Emahiser and William Finck on the Yahweh's Covenant People internet radio program April 10th, 2010 can be found here:

 http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/showart.php?id=46

http://emahiser.christogenea.org/site/o ... d-the-jews

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Semitic Genetics

Tuesday, 15 December 2009 01:58 administrator
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This article originally from http://foundationstone.com.au/Foundatio ... etics.html

Semitic Genetics

With a new technique based on the male or Y chromosome, biologists have traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that began in 586 B.C. to the modern communities of Europe and the Middle East.

The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries.

Jews, Palestinians, and Syrians share a genetic link.

Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago.

Dr. Lawrence H. Schiffman, chairman of the department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University, said the study fit with historical evidence that Jews originated in the Near East and with biblical evidence suggesting that there were a variety of families and types in the original population. He said the finding would cause "a lot of discussion of the relationship of scientific evidence to the manner in which we evaluate long-held academic and personal religious positions," like the question of who is a Jew.

The study, reported in today's Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, was conducted by Dr. Michael F. Hammer of the University of Arizona with colleagues in the United States, Italy, Israel, England and South Africa. The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism.

The analysis by Dr. Hammer and colleagues is based on the Y chromosome, which is passed unchanged from father to son. Early in human evolution, all but one of the Y chromosomes were lost as their owners had no children or only daughters, so that all Y chromosomes today are descended from that of a single genetic Adam who is estimated to have lived about 140,000 years ago.

In principle, all men should therefore carry the identical sequence of DNA letters on their Y chromosomes, but in fact occasional misspellings have occurred, and because each misspelling is then repeated in subsequent generations, the branching lineages of errors form a family tree rooted in the original Adam.

These variant spellings are in DNA that is not involved in the genes and therefore has no effect on the body. But the type and abundance of the lineages in each population serve as genetic signature by which to compare different populations.

Based on these variations, Dr. Hammer identified 19 variations in the Y chromosome family tree.

The ancestral Middle East population from which both Arabs and Jews are descended was a mixture of men from eight of these lineages.

Among major contributors to the ancestral Arab-Jewish population were men who carried what Dr. Hammer calls the "Med" lineage. This Y chromosome is found all round the Mediterranean and in Europe and may have been spread by the Neolithic inventors of agriculture or perhaps by the voyages of sea-going people like the Phoenicians.

Another lineage common in the ancestral Arab-Jewish gene pool is found among today's Ethiopians and may have reached the Middle East by men who traveled down the Nile. But present-day Ethiopian Jews lack some of the other lineages found in Jewish communities, and overall are more like non-Jewish Ethiopians than other Jewish populations, at least in terms of their Y chromosome lineage pattern.

The ancestral pattern of lineages is recognizable in today's Arab and Jewish populations, but is distinct from that of European populations and both groups differ widely from sub-Saharan Africans.

Each Arab and Jewish community has its own flavor of the ancestral pattern, reflecting their different genetic histories. Roman Jews have a pattern quite similar to that of Ashkenazis, the Jewish community of Eastern Europe. Dr. Hammer said the finding accorded with the hypothesis that Roman Jews were the ancestors of the Ashkenazis.

Despite the Ashkenazi Jews' long residence in Europe, their Y signature has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans.

On the assumption that there have been 80 generations since the founding of the Ashkenazi population, Dr. Hammer and colleagues calculate that the rate of genetic admixture with Europeans has been less than half a percent per generation.

Jewish law tracing back almost 2,000 years states that Jewish affiliation is determined by maternal ancestry, so the Y chromosome study addresses the question of how much non-Jewish men may have contributed to Jewish genetic diversity.

Dr. Hammer was surprised to find how little that contribution was.

"It could be that wherever Jews were, they were very much isolated," he said. The close genetic affinity between Jews and Arabs, at least by the Y chromosome yardstick, is reflected in the Genesis account of how Abraham fathered Ishmael by his wife's maid Hagar and, when Sarah was then able to conceive, Isaac. Although Muslims have a different version of the story, they regard Abraham and Ishmael, or Ismail, as patriarchs just as Jews do Abraham and Isaac.

- Nicholas Wade, New York Times May 2000

Some companies now sell genealogy searches against DNA databases. One that implements this particular test is familytreedna.com
Last Updated on Tuesday, 15 December 2009 02:02

http://emahiser.christogenea.org/site/o ... d-the-jews

[Yo Mama]

No, the Khazar origin theory of Ashkenazi Jews is not true.

Ashkenazi Jews are a genetic mixture of Middle Eastern Semitic Jews and White Europeans.  This accounts for Ashkenazi Jews' "White" appearance.  It also accounts for Ashkenazi Jews' higher average I.Q. as compared with Sephardic Jews and other full-blooded Middle Easterners.

 :up:

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Found one of the original sources of the "Khazar Theory" of the Jews. It appeared in a 1876 periodical called "The Academy" published in London.  It records a meeting of 19th century  Orientalists (pre-Anthropologists) and researchers on "peoples" of the world. This probably inspired a lot of Jews to research about it like Arthur Koestler.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

The Academy and literature, Volume 10
Page 290

Sept. 16 1876 Meeting in St. Petersburg

The Session of the International Congress of Orientalists

"Next Mr. Howorth presented a treatise 'On the Khazars'  a people formerly inhabiting the Lower Volga and converts to Judaism"

http://books.google.com/books?id=9G9RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA290

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Racially, I'm getting the impression the Khazars were just another "Alan" Indo-European type tribe living in this part of Europe that just converted to "Judaism".  Most of their European ancestors just converted over to Chrisitanity and even Islam later in time. The Scythians were basically "White" people.   :think:

Prehistory (Early Alans)


The Ossetians descend from the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe (Scythian subgroup of the Iranic ethnolinguistic group).[13] About A.D. 200, the Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion, and the Alans remaining built up a great kingdom between the Don and the Volga, according to Coon, The Races of Europe. Between A.D. 350 and 374, the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom, and a few survive to this day in the Caucasus as the Ossetes. They became Christians under Byzantine[18] and Georgian influence. A small number adopted Sunni Islam.

Middle Ages


In the 8th century a consolidated Alan kingdom, referred to in sources of the period as Alania, emerged in the northern Caucasus Mountains, roughly in the location of the latter-day Circassia and the modern North Ossetia-Alania. At its height, Alania was a centralized monarchy with a strong military force and benefited from the Silk Road.

Forced out of their medieval homeland (south of the River Don in present-day Russia) during Mongol rule, Alans migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, where they subsequently would form three ethnographical groups; the Iron, Digor, and Kudar. The Jassic people were a group that migrated in the 13th century to Hungary.

----------------------
Name

The various forms of Alan — Greek: Αλανοί, Αλαννοί; Chinese: 阿蘭聊 Alanliao (Pinyin) in the 2nd century,[4] 阿蘭 Alan (Pinyin) in the 3rd century[5] — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern Ossetian descendants, indicating early tribal self-designation) are Iranian dialectical forms of Aryan.[1][6] These and other variants of Aryan (such as Iran), were common self-designations of the Indo-Iranians, the common ancestors of the Indo-Aryans and Iranian peoples to whom the Alans belonged.

The Alans were also known over the course of their history by another group of related names including the variations Asi, As, and Os (Bulgarian Uzi, Hungarian Jász, Russian Jasy, Georgian Osi). It is this name that is the root of the modern Ossetian.[7]




Same with the Indo-European Circassians (Alans?) whose women were famed as sexy... maybe a blend of Turk and Indo-Europeans? --CSR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_beauties

Circassian beauties is a term used to refer to an idealized image of the women of the Circassian people of the Northern Caucasus. A fairly extensive literary history suggests that Circassian women were thought to be unusually beautiful, spirited and elegant, and as such were desirable as concubines. This reputation dates back to the Ottoman Empire when Circassian women living in the Sultan's Imperial Harem started to build their reputation as extremely beautiful and genteel, and then became a common trope in Western Orientalism.

As a result of this reputation, in Europe and America Circassians were regularly characterised as the ideal of feminine beauty in poetry, novels and art. Cosmetic products were advertised, from the 18th century on, using the word "Circassian" in the title, or claiming that the product was based on substances used by the women of Circassia.

In the 1860s the showman P. T. Barnum exhibited women whom he claimed were Circassian beauties. They wore a distinctive Afro-like hair style, which had no precedent in earlier portrayals of Circassians, but which was soon copied by other female performers, who became known as "moss haired girls". These were typically presented as victims of sexual enslavement among the Turks, who had escaped from the harem to achieve freedom in America.

Culture

The Adyghe language (Adyghabze) is a member of the Northwest Caucasian group of Caucasian languages. Along with Russian, Adyghe is the official language of the republic.

There are 8 state and 23 public museums in the republic. The largest museum is the National Museum of the Republic of Adygea in Maykop.

History
Map of Adygea

The Current President of Adygea Aslan Tkhakushinov

The Adyghe people, sometimes known as Circassians, were the ancient dwellers of the North-West Caucasus since the 13th century.

Cherkess (Adyghe) Autonomous Oblast was established within the Russian SFSR on July 27, 1922, on the territories of Kuban-Black Sea Oblast, primarily settled by the Adyghe people. At that time, Krasnodar was the administrative center. It was renamed Adyghe (Cherkess) Autonomous Oblast on August 24, 1922, soon after its creation. In the first two years of its existence the autonomous oblast was a part of the Russian SFSR, but on October 17, 1924, it was transferred to the jurisdiction of the newly created North Caucasus Krai within the RSFSR.[15]

It was renamed Adyghe Autonomous Oblast (AO) in July 1928. On January 10, 1934, the autonomous oblast became part of new Azov-Black Sea Krai, which was removed from North Caucasus Krai. Maykop was made the administrative center of the autonomous oblast in 1936. Adyghe AO became part of Krasnodar Krai when it was established on September 13, 1937.

On July 3, 1991, the oblast was elevated to the status of a republic under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. The first president of Adygea was Aslan Aliyevich Dzharimov, elected in January 1992. From 2002 to 2007, Hazret Sovmen was president. He, and most of the rest of the political elite in Adygea, are Adyghes. As a reaction to that, an organization calling itself the Union of Slavs was established, claiming that ethnic Russians are discriminated against in Adygea. They advocate the merger of Adygea with Krasnodar Krai, but have so far have had little support for that proposition from the Russian government.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Alans

Archaeology

Archaeological finds support the written sources. Late Sarmatian sites were first identified with the historical Alans by P.D. Rau (1927). Based on the archaeological material, they were one of the Iranian-speaking nomadic tribes that began to enter the Sarmatian area between the middle of the 1st and the 2nd century.

The Alani were first mentioned in Roman literature in the 1st century and were described later as a warlike people that specialized in horse breeding. They frequently raided the Parthian empire and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire. In the Vologeses inscription[15] one can read that Vologeses I, the Parthian king, in the 11th year of his reign, battled Kuluk, king of the Alani.

This inscription is supplemented by the contemporary Jewish historian, Josephus (37–100), who reports in the Jewish Wars (book 7, ch. 8.4) how Alans (whom he calls a "Scythian" tribe) living near the Sea of Azov, crossed the Iron Gates for plunder and defeated the armies of Pacorus, king of Media, and Tiridates, King of Armenia, two brothers of Vologeses I (for whom the above-mentioned inscription was made):

    4. Now there was a nation of the Alans, which we have formerly mentioned somewhere as being Scythians, and inhabiting at the Lake Meotis. This nation about this time laid a design of falling upon Media, and the parts beyond it, in order to plunder them; with which intention they treated with the king of Hyrcania; for he was master of that passage which king Alexander shut up with iron gates. This king gave them leave to come through them; so they came in great multitudes, and fell upon the Medes unexpectedly, and plundered their country, which they found full of people, and replenished with abundance of cattle, while nobody durst make any resistance against them; for Pacorus, the king of the country, had fled away for fear into places where they could not easily come at him, and had yielded up everything he had to them, and had only saved his wife and his concubines from them, and that with difficulty also, after they had been made captives, by giving them a hundred talents for their ransom. These Alans therefore plundered the country without opposition, and with great ease, and proceeded as far as Armenia, laying all waste before them. Now, Tiridates was king of that country, who met them and fought them but had luck to not have been taken alive in the battle; for a certain man threw a net over him from a great distance and had soon drawn him to him, unless he had immediately cut the cord with his sword and ran away and so, prevented it. So the Alans, being still more provoked by this sight, laid waste the country, and drove a great multitude of the men, and a great quantity of the other prey they had gotten out of both kingdoms, along with them, and then retreated back to their own country.

Flavius Arrianus marched against the Alani in the 1st century and left a detailed report (Ektaxis kata Alanoon or 'War Against the Alans') that is a major source for studying Roman military tactics, but doesn't reveal much about his enemy. In the late 4th century, Vegetius conflates Alans and Huns in his military treatise — Hunnorum Alannorumque natio, the "nation of Huns and Alans" — and collocates Goths, Huns and Alans, exemplo Gothorum et Alannorum Hunnorumque.[16]

In Cathay and the Way Thither, 1866, Henry Yule writes:

    The Alans were known to the Chinese by that name, in the ages immediately preceding and following the Christian era, as dwelling near the Aral, in which original position they are believed to have been closely akin to, if not identical with, the famous Massagetæ. Hereabouts also Ptolemy (vi, 14) appears to place the Alani-Scythæ, and Alanæan Mountains. From about 40 B.C. the emigrations of the Alans seem to have been directed westward to the Lower Don; here they are placed in the first century by Josephus and by the Armenian writers; and hence they are found issuing in the third century to ravage the rich provinces of Asia Minor. In 376 the deluge of the Huns on its westward course came upon the Alans and overwhelmed them. Great numbers of Alans are found to have joined the conquerors on their further progress, and large bodies of Alans afterwards swelled the waves of Goths, Vandals, and Sueves, that rolled across the Western Empire. A portion of the Alans, however, after the Hun invasion retired into the plains adjoining Caucasus, and into the lower valleys of that region, where they maintained the name and nationality which the others speedily lost. Little is heard of these Caucasian Alans for many centuries, except occasionally as mercenary soldiers of the Byzantine emperors or the [p. 316] Persian kings. In the thirteenth century they made a stout resistance to the Mongol conquerors, and though driven into the mountains they long continued their forays on the tracts subjected to the Tartar dynasty that settled on the Wolga, so that the Mongols had to maintain posts with strong garrisons to keep them in check. They were long redoutable both as warriors and as armourers, but by the end of the fourteenth century they seem to have come thoroughly under the Tartar rule; for they fought on the side of Toctamish Khan of Sarai against the great Timur.[17]

Migration to Gaul
Alan migrations in the 4th–5th centuries.



Red: migrations; Orange: military expeditions; Yellow: settlement areas.

Around 370, the Alans were overwhelmed by the Huns. They were divided into several groups, some of whom fled westward. A portion of these western Alans joined the Vandals and the Sueves in their invasion of Roman Gaul. Gregory of Tours mentions in his Liber historiae Francorum ("Book of Frankish History") that the Alan king Respendial saved the day for the Vandals in an armed encounter with the Franks at the crossing of the Rhine on December 31, 406). According to Gregory, another group of Alans, led by Goar, crossed the Rhine at the same time, but immediately joined the Romans and settled in Gaul.

Under Goar, they allied with the Burgundians led by Gundaharius, with whom they installed the usurping Emperor Jovinus. Under Goar's successor Sangiban, the Alans of Orléans played a critical role in repelling the invasion of Attila the Hun at the Battle of Châlons. After the 5th century, however, the Alans of Gaul were subsumed in the territorial struggles between the Franks and the Visigoths, and ceased to have an independent existence. In order to quell unrest, Flavius Aëtius settled large numbers of Alans in various areas, such as in and around Armorica. Several towns with names possibly related to 'Alan', such as Allainville, Yvelines, Alainville-en Beauce, Loiret, Allaines and Allainville, Eure-et-Loir, and Les Allains, Eure, are taken as evidence that a contingent settled in Armorica, Brittany, which retained a reputation for outstanding horsemanship with Gregory of Tours and into the Middle Ages, preferring to remain mounted to fight in contrast with all their neighbors, who dismounted in battle.[18] Other areas of Alans settlement were notably around Orléans and Valentia.[19]

Hispania and Africa

Kingdom of the Alans in Hispania (409-426 AD).

Kingdom of the Vandals and Alans in north Africa (526 AD).

Following the fortunes of the Vandals and Suevi into the Iberian peninsula (Hispania, comprising modern Portugal and Spain) in 409, the Alans led by Respendial settled in the provinces of Lusitania and Carthaginiensis: "Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias, et Wandali cognomine Silingi Baeticam sortiuntur" (Hydatius). The Siling Vandals settled in Baetica, the Suevi in coastal Gallaecia, and the Asding Vandals in the rest of Gallaecia.

In 418 (or 426 according to some authors, cf. e.g. Castritius, 2007), the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths, and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans dissolved.[20] Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").

There are some vestiges of the Alans in Portugal,[21] namely in Alenquer (whose name may be Germanic for the Temple of the Alans, from "Alen Ker", and whose castle may have been established by them; the Alaunt is still represented in that city's coat of arms), in the construction of the castles of Torres Vedras and Almourol, and in the city walls of Lisbon, where vestigies of their presence may be found under the foundations of the Church of Santa Luzia.

In the Iberian peninsula the Alans settled in Lusitania (cf. Alentejo) and the Cartaginense provinces. They became known in retrospect for their massive hunting and fighting dog of Molosser type, the Alaunt, which they apparently introduced to Europe. The breed is extinct, but its name is carried by a Spanish breed of dog still called Alano, traditionally used in boar hunting and cattle herding. The Alano name, however, has historically been used for a number of dog breeds in a few European countries thought to descend from the original dog of the Alans, such as the German mastiff (Great Dane) and the French Dogue de Bordeaux, among others.

Alans and Slavs

Some historians argue that the arrival of the Huns on the European steppe forced a portion of Alans previously living there to move northwest into the land of Venedes, possibly merging with Western Balts there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations.[22])

It's believed that some Alans resettled to the North (Barsils), merging with Volga Bulgars and Burtas, eventually transforming to Volga Tatars[23]

Medieval Alania



Map showing the location of Alans, c. 650.


Some of the other Alans remained under the rule of the Huns. Those of the eastern division, though dispersed about the steppes until late medieval times, were forced by the Mongols into the Caucasus, where they remain as the Ossetians. Between the 9th and 12th centuries, they formed a network of tribal alliances that gradually evolved into the Christian kingdom of Alania. Most Alans submitted to the Mongol Empire in 1239–1277. They participated in Mongol invasions of Europe and the Song Dynasty in Southern China, and the Battle of Kulikovo under Mamai of the Golden Horde.[24]

In 1253, the Franciscan monk William of Rubruck reported numerous Europeans in Central Asia. It is also known that 30,000 Alans formed the royal guard (Asud) of the Yuan court in Dadu (Beijing). Marco Polo later reported their role in the Yuan Dynasty in his book Il Milione. It's said that those Alans contributed to a modern Mongol clan, Asud. John of Montecorvino, archbishop of Dadu (Khanbaliq), reportedly converted many Alans to Roman Catholic Christianity.[25][26][/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Interesting that the idea of "War Dogs" comes from the Alans as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaunt


The Alans were fractured into groups, of which some had returned West at various times in various locations. One group of Alans arrived in what is now Albania in the fifth or sixth centuries BC. ref Atlas 1995 P.G.30 Molossis of Epirus is located in Southern Albania.ref Fleig 1996, P.G.18 It is most plausible the Alaunt gave rise to the fighting dogs of the Molossi, which were introduced to Britain by Roman Invasion in 55BC. The Alans provided calvery for Rome and in 50AD, 5,500 Alans were sent to Britain to guard Hadrian's Wall.[3] Thus, the Alaunt genetic template most plausibly gave rise to the British Pugnances as fighting dogs which English Mastiffs and Bulldogs descend from.




The Woman of Elche; polychrome stone, Celtiberian 4th Century BCE



Recreation of Iberian warrior from the tomb of a nobleman found in Spain


Celts, living on the central mesetas in direct contact with the Iberians, adopted many Iberian cultural fashions, including wheel-made pottery, rough stone sculptures of pigs and bulls, and the eastern Iberian alphabet on coins and inscriptions, such as the bronze plaque from Botorrita (Saragossa), but they did not organize themselves into urban settlements until the 3rd century BC. The Celt-Iberians were tribes of mixed Iberian and Celtic stock who inhabited an area in present north-central Spain from the 3rd century BC onward . These Celtiberians inhabited the hill country between the sources of the Tagus (Tajo) and Iberus (Ebro) rivers, including most of the modern province of Soria and much of the neighboring provinces of Guadalajara and Teruel.


In historic times the Celtiberians were composed of the Arevaci, Belli, Titti, and Lusones. The earliest population of Celtiberia was that of the southeastern Almería culture of the Bronze Age, after which came Hallstatt invaders, who occupied the area shortly before 600 BC. The Hallstatt people were in turn subjugated by the Arevaci, who dominated the neighboring Celtiberian tribes from the powerful strongholds at Okilis (modern Medinaceli) and Numantia. The Belli and the Titti were settled in the Jalón valley, the Sierra del Solorio separating them from the Lusones to the northeast.

The material culture of Celtiberia was strongly influenced by that of the Iberian people of the Ebro valley. Horse bits, daggers, and shield fittings attest the warlike nature of the Celtiberians, and one of their inventions, the two-edged Spanish sword, was later adopted by the Romans. To the west and north of Inland Spain developed a world that classical writers described as Celtic. Iron was known from 700 BC, and agricultural and herding economies were practiced by people who lived in small villages or, in the northwest, in fortified compounds called castros. The people spoke Indo-European languages (Celtic, Lusitanian) but were divided culturally and politically into dozens of independent tribes and territories; they left behind hundreds of place-names. Metalworking flourished, and distinctive neck rings (torques) of silver or gold, along with brooches and bangles, attest to their technical skills.
the distinct style of Torque worn by the Iberians differed from the typical Gaulish ones which had a braided appearance, which could signify the stylistic preferences of the Pre-Celtic Iberian peoples

The warriors of Celt-Iberia enjoyed a reputation as the finest barbarian mercenary infantry in the western world. They were believed to possess the finest qualities of the Celts, savage battle lust and great physical courage, along with the steadiness and organization of the more civilized Iberians. Their reputation was such that after the rout of the Carthaginians by Scipio Africanus at the Burning of the Camps in 203, the arrival of a band of only 4,000 Celt-Iberians encouraged the Carthaginians to take the field once more.
....

The fact that the term "Celtiberia" did not originate there makes it even more difficult to assess, as do the frequent contradictions found in its usage and application in literary sources, which can sometimes but not always be explained by chronology. As for the term Celtiberi, it appears to be used to refer to a people considered to be a mixed group. Diodorus, Appian and Martial certainly used it in this way, and believed that the Celtiberians were Celts mixed with Iberians, although for other authors such as Strabo, there was a definitive domination of the Celtic component in this mixture. Even if not all scholars believe that the concept "Celtiberian" refers to an ethnic unit, it is equally important to study aspects of the indigenous features that could have been passed on to visitors to the area, such as customs and languages, since they could form the basis of a proven identity. The Celtiberians could be considered an ethnic group insofar as they included subordinate ethnic units, just as the Gauls or the Iberians did, but on a smaller scale, without evidence for centralized power or even a political hierarchy.

In short, the true significance of the terms "Celtiberian" and "Celtiberia" in the different contexts in which they were used is unknown, although it is likely that they had ethnic and purely geographical connotations. It has been suggested that the term "Celtiberian" could have been used to refer to the "Iberian Celts", even though, as we have already pointed out, the Celtiberians were not the only Celts on the Peninsula. Possibly this term was simply used to highlight the personality of these people within the Celtic world. The Berones were another Celtic population that inhabited the area now known as La Rioja, on the right bank of the Upper Ebro River. According to Strabo, they settled to the north of the Celtiberians, were neighbours of the Cantabrian Coniscos, and had been part of the "Celtic immigration". He stated that they inhabited the city of Varia. Ptolemy also mentioned this city, which he calls Vareia, along with Tritium Megallum and Oliba.


The Celts' lack of moderation in drinking is accepted as a commonplace by Graeco-Roman writers , and is also evident in subsequent literature but, inevitably, it always appears in the highly ritualized contexts of feasts and war . Celtiberians are known to have consumed a kind of beer (caelia) of very high alcoholic content . People from Numancia got drunk with it during the last days before their city was taken and, so inflamed, went out to fight after eating raw meat . In the sixth century AD, Gregory of Tours , still distinguished between British, Gaulish and Germanic ales, corma and the caelia celtiberica, which was obtained from cereal maceration and was highly intoxicating.
Iberians and Celts
Recreation of Iberian warrior from the tomb of a nobleman found in Spain

According to Almagro-Gorbea, the Celtiberian culture emerged out of a 'proto-Celtic' substratum, which would explain the cultural, socio-economic, linguistic and ideological similarities, as well as the progressive assimilation of the 'proto-Celtic' substratum into the Celtiberian culture. This process of Celticization allows us to understand better the heterogeneity and clear personality of Celtic Hispania within the Celtic world.

In a recent study, Almagro-Gorbea proposed that the origins of the Celts could be traced back to the third millennium BC, and sought to find the initial roots of the formative process that would eventually give rise to the Celtic people in the Bell Beaker culture. This remote origin would certain explain the wide dispersion of the Celts throughout western Europe, as well as the variability of the different Celtic peoples, and the existence of ancestral traditions.[/quote]

http://www.theancientweb.com/explore/co ... tent_id=27

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Ancient dog known as a Molossus, likely domesticated by Alans:

History
Jennings Dog, on display in the British Museum.

This ancient[1] extinct breed of dog is commonly considered to be the ancestor (in rivalry with the Alaunt, the dog of the Alans) of today's Mastiff[2]-type dogs and of many other modern breeds. mastiff-type dogs are often referred to as Molossus dogs or Molossers. It is one of the best-known breeds of Greco-Roman antiquity; however, its physical characteristics and function are debated. Though the Molossus breed no longer exists in its original form, it is noted as being instrumental in the development of modern breeds such as the St. Bernard, Great Pyrenees, Rottweiler, Great Dane, Newfoundland, Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, and Bernese Mountain Dog.

Some scholars contend that the Molossus was a dog used by the Ancient Greeks[3] for fighting[4]. They describe it as having a wide, short muzzle and a heavy dewlap (similar to modern Mastiff breeds) that was used to fight tigers, lions, elephants, and men in battle. A Roman copy of a Greek original sculpture of a guard dog (known as the Jennings Dog) is generally considered to represent a Molossus and can be seen at the British Museum.

Others argue that it was primarily a lightweight dog used for hunting and herding with physical characteristics more akin to Greyhounds or possibly the versatile Catahoula Leopard Dog.

Most scholars agree the Molossus originated with the Molossis people in the mountainous regions of northwest Ancient Greece (modern Greece northwest and Southern Albania before the Common Era). The Molossians were renowned for their vicious hounds, which were used by Molossian shepherds of Epirus[5] in the mountains of northwestern Greece to guard their flocks. The poet Grattius, a contemporary of Ovid, writes "...when serious work has come, when bravery must be shown, and the impetuous War-god calls in the utmost hazard, then you could not but admire the renowned Molossians so much."[citation needed]

The breed was a native to Greece and the rest of the Balkans, it later migrated to Italy and other places of the Greek World by Hellenic tribes who started to colonize in various regions of the world. Virgil says that in ancient Greece the heavier Molossian dogs were often used by the Greeks and Romans[6] for hunting (canis venaticus) and to watch over the house and livestock (canis pastoralis). "Never, with them on guard," says Virgil, "need you fear for your stalls a midnight thief, or onslaught of wolves, or Iberian brigands at your back."Aristotle[7] mentions them in the history of animals and praises their bravery and physical superiority. The Molossian breed was most certainly a very large dog similar to the Mastiff we know today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossus_%28dog%29

[sullivan]

The thing is though that for Sephardic Jews... their closest Genetic "cousins" are actually Palestinians.

Not really. The Mizrahim have a close genetic connection to the Palestinians. The Sephardic, being largely descended from North African converts, have quite a bit of Berber in their genetic makeup.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

-----------------------

Jewish DNA Project - Y-DNA Classic Chart  (almost all   E1b1b1 and J1/J2 with some G and Il as well)

* Haplogroups in green have been confirmed by SNP testing. Haplogroups in red have been predicted by Family Tree DNA based on unambiguous results in the individual's personal page. This has been placed on this GAP page for your ease and convenience. Please note that for any predicted results we see no reason for ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup. If a "-" is in the HAPLO field then we feel that the comparative results are not clear and unambiguous and if the kit holder wants to know their SNP with 100% confidence they may consider ordering a SNP confirmation test.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jew ... n=yresults

E1b1b  
Main article: Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA)

E1b1b is at once the most common E subclade amongst East African Maasai, Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans and North African Sudanese, Egyptians, Berbers and Arabs. It is also common in West Asia, from where it spread into the Balkans and the rest of Europe. E1b1b has at least four common subclades: E1b1b1a (E-V68), E1b1b1b (E-V257), E1b1b1c (E-M123), and E1b1b1e (E-M293), the last of which spreads from Ethiopia to South Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E_%28Y-DNA%29

Origins

Haplogroup J2 is widely believed to be associated with the spread of agriculture from Mesopotamia.[1][21]

"The main spread of J2 into the Mediterranean area is thought to have coincided with the expansion of agricultural peoples during the Neolithic period."[2] The age of J2 has been estimated as 18,500 +/- 3,500 years ago.[1] Its distribution, centered in Western Asia and Southeastern Europe, its association with the presence of Neolithic archaeological artifacts, such as figurines and painted pottery,[22] and its association with annual precipitation have been interpreted as evidence that J2, and in particular its J2a-M410 subclade belonged to the agricultural innovators who followed the rainfall.[23] However, Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Greeks, as being even more important in the dispersal of Hg J2.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29

--------------------

If you click this link you can see the differences between the Jews and the Arabs are not dramatically different by Y-Haplotype. The Report below tries to draw huge distinction but the one right after that is a year older shows fewer differences:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... igure/FG6/

=============

Am J Hum Genet. 2001 Nov;69(5):1095-112. Epub 2001 Sep 25.
The Y chromosome pool of Jews as part of the genetic landscape of the Middle East.
Nebel A, Filon D, Brinkmann B, Majumder PP, Faerman M, Oppenheim A.
Source

Department of Hematology, Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical School, Jerusalem 91120, Israel.
Abstract

A sample of 526 Y chromosomes representing six Middle Eastern populations (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Kurdish Jews from Israel; Muslim Kurds; Muslim Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area; and Bedouin from the Negev) was analyzed for 13 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors. The two haplogroups Eu 9 and Eu 10 constitute a major part of the Y chromosome pool in the analyzed sample. Our data suggest that Eu 9 originated in the northern part, and Eu 10 in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent. Genetic dating yielded estimates of the expansion of both haplogroups that cover the Neolithic period in the region. Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin differed from the other Middle Eastern populations studied here, mainly in specific high-frequency Eu 10 haplotypes not found in the non-Arab groups. These chromosomes might have been introduced through migrations from the Arabian Peninsula during the last two millennia. The present study contributes to the elucidation of the complex demographic history that shaped the present-day genetic landscape in the region.


================


Hum Genet. 2000 Dec;107(6):630-41.
High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews.
Nebel A, Filon D, Weiss DA, Weale M, Faerman M, Oppenheim A, Thomas MG.
Source
 
Department of Hematology, Hebrew University, Hadassah Medical School and Hadassah University Hospital, Jerusalem, Israel.
Abstract

High-resolution Y chromosome haplotype analysis was performed in 143 paternally unrelated Israeli and Palestinian Moslem Arabs (I&P Arabs) by screening for 11 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. Two frequent haplotypes were found among the 83 detected: the modal haplotype of the I&P Arabs (approximately 14%) was spread throughout the region, while its one-step microsatellite neighbor, the modal haplotype of the Galilee sample (approximately 8%), was mainly restricted to the north. Geographic substructuring within the Arabs was observed in the highlands of Samaria and Judea. Y chromosome variation in the I&P Arabs was compared to that of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, and to that of North Welsh individuals. At the haplogroup level, defined by the binary polymorphisms only, the Y chromosome distribution in Arabs and Jews was similar but not identical. At the haplotype level, determined by both binary and microsatellite markers, a more detailed pattern was observed. Single-step microsatellite networks of Arab and Jewish haplotypes revealed a common pool for a large portion of Y chromosomes, suggesting a relatively recent common ancestry. The two modal haplotypes in the I&P Arabs were closely related to the most frequent haplotype of Jews (the Cohen modal haplotype). However, the I&P Arab clade that includes the two Arab modal haplotypes (and makes up 32% of Arab chromosomes) is found at only very low frequency among Jews, reflecting divergence and/or admixture from other populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11153918

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Genet Test. 2003 Spring;7(1):67-71.

Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes in Jews: comparisons with Lebanese and Palestinians.

Lucotte G, Mercier G.
Source

International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12820706

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

More recent studies:

Alla Katsnelson. Jews worldwide share genetic ties: But analysis also reveals close links to Palestinians and Italians." Nature.com (June 3, 2010). Excerpts:

    "Different communities of Jews around the world share more than just religious or cultural practices -- they also have strong genetic commonalities, according to the largest genetic analysis of Jewish people to date. But the study also found strong genetic ties to non-Jewish groups, with the closest genetic neighbours on the European side being Italians, and on the Middle Eastern side the Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. Researchers in New York and Tel Aviv conducted a genome-wide analysis on 237 individuals from seven well-established Jewish communities around the world, hailing from Iran, Iraq, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Syria and eastern Europe. The team then compared these genetic profiles to those of non-Jews in the same geographic regions based on data from the Human Genome Diversity Project.... The genetic ties identified in the present study... are consistent with the results of previous work, says Sarah Tishkoff, a human geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, 'but this is, I would say, the first study to put everything together into a big picture by looking at a large number of sites in the nuclear genome'. The researchers analysed single-letter differences in the genome called single nucleotide polymorphisms, longer segments of DNA shared between different Jewish groups, as well as deleted or duplicated stretches of DNA called copy-number variants. Although the groups had strong genetic commonalities, the results also showed a varying degree of genetic mixing with nearby non-Jewish populations. The most genetically distinct Jewish communities, compared both to other Jewish groups and to nearby non-Jews, were those from Iran and Iraq. ...one theory proposes that Ashkenazi Jews (of eastern European origin) are largely descended from Khazars in eastern Europe who converted to Judaism, but the genetic closeness between Ashkenazi Jews and other non-European Jews does not support this idea. ...Ostrer says... 'We really see the events of the Jewish diaspora in the genomes of Jewish people.' ... Ostrer says that the researchers are extending their analysis to more Jewish populations. They also hope to apply the findings to medical research..."


http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

Sharon Begley. "The DNA of Abraham's Children." Newsweek Web Exclusive (June 3, 2010). Excerpts:

    "The latest DNA volume weighs in on the controversial, centuries-old (and now revived in a 2008 book) claim that European Jews are all the descendants of Khazars, a Turkic group of the north Caucasus who converted to Judaism in the late eighth and early ninth century. The DNA has spoken: no. ... To sort it out, researchers collected DNA from Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, and Ashkenazi Jews around New York City; Turkish Sephardic Jews in Seattle; Greek Sephardic Jews in Thessaloniki and Athens; and Italian Jews in Rome as part of the Jewish HapMap Project. (All four grandparents of each participant had to have come from the same community.) ... Jewish populations, that is, have retained their genetic coherence just as they have retained their cultural and religious traditions, despite migrations from the Middle East into Europe, North Africa, and beyond over the centuries, says geneticist Harry Ostrer of NYU Langone Medical Center, who led the study. Each Diaspora group has distinctive genetic features 'representative of each group's genetic history,' he says, but each also 'shares a set of common genetic threads' dating back to their common origin in the Middle East. 'Each of the Jewish populations formed its own distinctive cluster, indicating the shared ancestry and relative genetic isolation of the members of each of those groups.' The various Jewish groups were more related to each other than to non-Jews, as well. Within every Jewish group, individuals shared as much of their genome as two fourth or fifth cousins, with Italian, Syrian, Iranian, and Iraqi Jews the most inbred, in the sense that they married within the small, close-knit community. In general, the genetic similarity of any two groups was larger the closer they lived to one another, but there was an exception: Turkish and Italian Jews were most closely related genetically, but are quite separated geographically. Historical records suggest that Iranian and Iraqi Jews date from communities that formed in Persia and Babylon, respectively, in the fourth to sixth centuries B.C.E., and the DNA confirms that. The genetic signatures of these groups show that they remained relatively isolated--inbred--for some 3,000 years. The DNA also reveals that these Middle Eastern Jews diverged from the ancestors of today's European Jews about 100 to 150 generations ago, or sometime during the first millennium B.C.E."

----------------------
Human Genetics
Volume 128, Number 3, 261-267, DOI: 10.1007/s00439-010-0846-z (2010)

Original Investigation
An ancient autosomal haplotype bearing a rare achromatopsia-causing founder mutation is shared among Arab Muslims and Oriental Jews

Lina Zelinger, Alex Greenberg, Susanne Kohl, Eyal Banin and Dror Sharon

Abstract

Numerous cultural aspects, mainly based on historical records, suggest a common origin of the Middle-Eastern Arab Muslim and Jewish populations. This is supported, to some extent, by Y-chromosome haplogroup analysis of Middle-Eastern and European samples. Up to date, no genomic regions that are shared among Arab Muslim and Jewish chromosomes and are unique to these populations have been reported. Here, we report of a rare achromatopsia-causing CNGA3 mutation (c.1585G>A) presents in both Arab Muslim and Oriental Jewish patients. A haplotype analysis of c.1585G>A-bearing chromosomes from Middle Eastern and European origins revealed a shared Muslim–Jewish haplotype, which is different from those detected in European patients, indicating a recurrent mutation stratified by a Jewish–Muslim founder effect. Comprehensive whole-genome haplotype analysis using 250 K single nucleotide polymorphism arrays revealed a large homozygous region of ~11 Mbp shared by both Arab Muslim and Oriental Jewish chromosomes. A subsequent microsatellite analysis of a 21.5 cM interval including CNGA3 and the adjacent chromosome 2 centromere revealed a unique and extremely rare haplotype associated with the c.1585G>A mutation. The age of the shared c.1585G>A mutation was calculated using the microsatellite genotyping data to be about 200 generations ago. A similar analysis of mutation age based on the Arab Muslim data alone showed that the mutation was unlikely to be the product of a recent gene flow event. The data present here demonstrate a large (11 Mbp) genomic region that is likely to originate from an ancient common ancestor of Middle-Eastern Arab Muslims and Jews who lived approximately 5,000 years ago.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/c1188q364vu63873/

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

This G2c Haplotype really nails it.  The Ashkenazi are not that much "European".  I'm of the opinion the Khazars were Indo-European that converted to Judaism and then converted away from it over several centuries as the wilder parts of Europe became Christianized. Afganis and Ashkenazi Jews have a strong connection racially with one another...  :think:

-----------
Haplogroup G2c

In human genetics, Haplogroup G2c (formerly G5) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup and is defined by the presence of the M377 mutation.[1] It is a branch of Haplogroup G, which in turn is defined by the presence of the M201 mutation.[2]

G2c is a major Y chromosome haplogroup, and yet unique: It has a very high frequency in Ashkenazi Jews, and shows strong evidence of a very recent settlement in Europe. (See also page covering Jews with Haplogroup G (Y-DNA)). The TMRCA (time until most recent common ancestor) appears to be around 1100 CE for this close group of Ashkenazi Jews. It is rare outside of northern Europe but there is recent evidence that this haplogroup is also found in certain Lebanese Christian populations originating from southern Syria and it has been found in a single Turk from Kars Province in Turkey on the border with Armenia, a Pashtun from the area of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan in the Hindu Kush range, and a single Burusho from the Hunza Valley in the Karakorum Range in Kashmir. Recently, it was discovered that an Egyptian and a Jordanian have values very similar to the Lebanese G2c group. It is confirmed that a sample from Sicily was G2c and the common ancestor between the Jewish group and this lone Sicilian match up to the time Titus brought the Jews out of Judea. This Jewish group could very well be Italkim Jews (Italian Jews); which would explain why it was never found amongst Sephardi Jews (those with origins in Spain or Portugal) and would explain it's rather late arrival into Eastern Europe.

G2c presents more mysteries regarding its origin and distribution than virtually any other major Y haplogroup. Haplogroups that are rare in certain regions are more common in another, and have rather clear origins in other places where they are more commonly found. G2c has none of these obvious characteristics. It is most common by far in a region where it arrived very recently, but rare in other region including its likely area of origin. The distribution of G2c is sparse and dispersed, with almost no G2c haplotypes found in very large intervening regions. This pattern is unique among Y haplogroups.


Ashkenazi Jews

A cluster of closely related Ashkenazi Jews represent virtually all confirmed G2c persons worldwide, both from private testing, and from academic studies. Of 211 known European G2cs, 8 are known to have non-Jewish patrilineal ancestors. G2c makes up about 7% of all Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosome haplotypes, as was found in Behar et al. (2004) (n=442, GxG2=33).[4] In the supplemental data from Behar et al. (2004), among the Ashkenazi Jewish G haplotypes haplotypes 4 and 6-15 are G2c, 2,3,5 are G1, and the haplogroup of the first listed is unclear. A much smaller group of Ashkenazi Jews however are in haplogroup G1, so not all GxG2 Ashkenazi Jews in the above study would be G2c. In a sample of 955 haplogroup G haplotypes, there are 103 Ashkenazi G2cs and 14 Ashkenazi G1s. The ratio of G2c:G1 among Ashkenazi Jews is approximately 10:1.

    European G2c comparative haplotype table
    European G2c unique haplotypes
    G2c SMGF.org haplotype search

Eastern Europe

The distribution of G2c in Eastern Europe very closely reflects the 16th and 17th century settlement patterns of Ashkenazi Jews in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:




The East - the Pathans and the Burushos

The presence of G2c in the these areas may be accounted for by several several separate theories, each with their own time scale. It does seem very likely that G2c originated in the Near East, in Anatolia or Syria, and spread both eastward and westward from there.

One often stated idea is of a direct Israelite ancestry for the Pashtuns as a whole. The Israelite origin of all the Pashtuns is contradicted by the ancient sources,[33][34] and also by the Iranian linguistic affiliations of the Pashto language. These stories were disseminated in Medieval times for religious reasons, and as part of the competition between the Mughals and the Pashtuns. However, this does not negate a possible Medieval Jewish origin for some of the Pashtun sub-tribes, but this would depend on the frequency of G2c among the Pashtuns, since any Jewish genetic admixture in relatively recent times would have been limited in scope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2c_%28Y-DNA%29

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Haplogroup   I      R1a      R1b      G      J2      J1      E      T       L      Q      N      Others
Ashkenazi Jews   4      10      9      9.5      19      19      20.5      2      0.5      5      0      1.5
Sephardic Jews   1      5      13      15      25      22      9      6      0      2      0      2

Not much West Euro-"R1b",  East Euro- "R1a" or North Euro - "I2" among the Jews.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Y ... Europe.swf

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Y-DNA-map-Europe.swf

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Interesting stories on the  Jews known as Crimean Karaites ( tribal Turkic - Khazars/Kipcheks) that were not Rabbinical Jews.

Crimean Karaites

The Crimean Karaites (Crimean Karaim: sg. къарай - qaray, pl. къарайлар - qaraylar; Trakai Karaim: sg. karaj, pl. karajlar, Hebrew קָרָאִים - qara'im, 'readers', tr. Karaylar), also known as Karaim and Qarays, are a community of ethnic Turkic adherents of Karaite Judaism in Eastern Europe. "Qaray" is a Romanized spelling of the original name "къарай", while "Karaim" is a Russian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, and Polish name for the community. Originally centered in Crimea, Karaim were established in Lithuania and elsewhere in Europe from late medieval times.

The name "Crimean Karaites" has often been considered as something of a misnomer, as many branches of this community found their way to locations throughout Europe and the Middle East. Historians distinguish between Karaite Jews and Jews who simply left the Levant before the canonization of the Talmud and therefore had no way of being Rabbinic Jews. Whether descended from the non-Rabbinic sects of the Second Temple Period, or from Rabbinate families rebelling against Talmudic rules, these communities started in present day Iran.

As time went on, some of these communities spread throughout the region, one of which was Crimea. Nevertheless this name, "Crimean Karaites" is used for the Turkic-speaking Karaite community which originated in Crimea to distinguish it from historically Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic-speaking Karaites of the Levant, Anatolia, and the Middle East (to show the difference between the ethnic group and the religious denomination). For the purposes of this article, the terms "Crimean Karaites", "Karaim", and "Qarays" are used interchangeably, while "Karaites" alone refers to the general Karaite branch of Judaism.

Language

Karaim is a Kypchak Turkic language being closely related to Crimean Tatar, Armeno-Kipchak etc. Among the many different influences exerted on Karaim, those of Arabic, Hebrew, and Persian were the first to change the outlook of the Karaim lexicon. Later, due to considerable Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian influence, many Slavic words entered the language of Polish, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, and Russian Karaims. Hebrew remained in use for liturgical purposes. Following the Ottoman occupation of Crimea, Turkish was used for business and government purposes among Karaims living on the Crimean peninsula. Three different dialects developed: the Troki dialect, used in Trakai and Vilnius (Lithuania), the Lutsk or Halych dialect spoken in Lutsk (until World War II), and Halych, and the Crimean dialect. The last forms the Eastern group, while Troki and Halych Karaim belong to the Western group.

Origins and ethnic identity
Karaite men in traditional garb, Crimea, 19th century.

Turkic-speaking Karaites (in the Crimean Tatar language, Qaraylar) have lived in Crimea for centuries. Their origin is a matter of great controversy. Some regard them as descendants of Karaite Jews who settled in Crimea and adopted a form of the Kypchak tongue (see Karaim language). Others view them as descendants of Khazar or Kipchak converts to Karaite Judaism. Today many Crimean Karaites deny Israelite origins and consider themselves to be descendants of the Khazars.[1] The consensus view among historians, however, considers that the Torah religion of the Khazars was Talmudic Judaism.[2]

Former Karaim Kenesa in Kiev

Some modern Karaims seek to distance themselves from being identified as Jews, emphasizing what they view as their Turkic heritage and claiming that they are Turkic practitioners of a "Mosaic religion" separate and distinct from Judaism. On the other hand, many scholars state that the phenomenon of claiming a distinct identity apart from the Jewish people appears to be no older than the 19th century, when it appeared under the influence of such leaders as Avraham Firkovich and Sima Babovich as a means of escaping anti-Semitism.[3] In addition, Karaite works written before that time strongly suggest that Crimean Karaites previously considered themselves Jews (See Yitzhak of Troki's "Hizzuk Emunah" or a Crimean Karaite poem from 1936).

Kevin Alan Brook, in his book "The Jews of Khazaria" concludes based on genetic testing that Crimean Karaites are indeed of Middle Eastern origin and hence related to other Jews.

Whatever their origin, from the time of the Golden Horde onward, they were present in many towns and villages throughout Crimea and around the Black Sea. During the period of the Crimean Khanate some of the major communities could be found in the towns of Çufut Qale, Sudak, Kefe, and Bakhchisaray.

Many Karaims were farmers. Members of the community served in the military forces of Rzeczpospolita and the Crimean Khanate.

Lithuania

In 1392 Grand Duke Vytautas of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania relocated one branch the Crimean Karaites to Lithuania where they continued to speak their own language. The Lithuanian Karaites settled primarily in Vilnius (Vilna) and Trakai (Troki), as well as in Biržai, Pasvalys, Naujamiestis and Upytė - smaller settlements throughout Lithuania proper - and lands of modern Belarus and Ukraine, that were part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Karaims in Lithuanian territory were granted a measure of autonomy.
Kenesa in Vilnius

Some famous Karaim scholars in Lithuania included Isaac b. Abraham of Troki (1543–1598), Joseph ben Mordecai Malinovski, Zera ben Nathan of Trakai, Salomon ben Aharon of Trakai, Ezra ben Nissan (died in 1666) and Josiah ben Judah (died after 1658). Some of the Karaim became quite wealthy.

During the times of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Karaims suffered severely during the Chmielnicki Uprising of 1648 and the wars between Russia and Poland in the years 1654-1667, when many towns were plundered and burnt, including Trakai, where in 1680 only 30 families were left. Catholic missionaries made serious attempts to convert the local Karaims to Christianity, but ultimately were largely unsuccessful. The local Karaim communities still exist in Lithuania (where they live mostly in Panevėžys and Trakai regions) and Poland. The 1979 census in the USSR showed 3,300 Karaims. Lithuanian Karaim Culture Community was founded in 1988.

According to the Lithuanian Karaims website the Statistics Department of Lithuania carried out an ethno-statistic research "Karaim in Lithuania" in 1997. It was decided to question all adult Karaims and mixed families, where one of the members is a Karaim. During the survey, for the beginning of 1997, there were 257 Karaim nationality people, 32 of which were children under 16.

Russian Empire

Karaim kenesa in Trakai.

Nineteenth-century leaders of the Karaims, such as Sima Babovich and Avraham Firkovich, were driving forces behind a concerted effort to alter the status of the Karaite community in eyes of the Russian legal system. Firkovich in particular was adamant in his attempts to connect the Karaims with the Khazars, and has been accused of forging documents and inscriptions to back up his claims.[citation needed]

Ultimately, the Tsarist government officially recognized the Karaims as being of Turkic, not Jewish, origin. Because the Karaims were judged to be innocent of the death of Jesus, they were exempt from many of the harsh restrictions placed on other Jews. They were, in essence, placed on equal legal footing with Crimean Tatars. The related Krymchak community, which was of similar ethnolinguistic background but which practiced rabbinical Judaism, continued to suffer under Tsarist anti-Jewish laws.

Since the incorporation of Crimea into the Russian Empire the main center of the Qarays is the city of Eupatoria.

Solomon Krym (b.1864, d. 1936), a Crimean Karaite agronomist, was elected in 1906 to the First Duma (1906–1907) as a Kadet (National Democratic Party). On November 16, 1918 he became the Prime Minister of a short-lived Crimean Russian liberal, anti-separatist and anti-Soviet government also supported by the German army.[4]

Their status under Russian imperial rule bore beneficial fruits for the Karaims decades later. In 1934, the heads of the Karaite community in Berlin asked the Nazi authorities to exempt them from the regulations; on the basis of their legal status in Russia. The Reich Agency for the Investigation of Families determined that from the standpoint of German law, the Karaites were not to be considered Jews. The letter from the Reichsstelle fur Sippenforschung gave the official ruling in a letter which stated:

The Karaite sect should not be considered a Jewish religious community within the meaning of paragraph 2, point 2 of the First Regulation to the Reich Citizenship Law. However, it cannot be established that Karaites in their entirety are of blood-related stock, for the racial categorization of an individual cannot be determined without ... his personal ancestry and racial biological characteristics

    — [5]

This ruling set the tone for how the Nazis dealt with the Karaite community in Eastern Europe.

At the same time, the Nazis had serious reservations towards the Karaites. SS Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger wrote on November 24, 1944:

Their Mosaic religion is unwelcome. However, on grounds of race, language and religious dogma... Discrimination against the Karaites is unacceptable, in consideration of their racial kinsmen [Berger was here referring to the Crimean Tatars]. However, so as not to infringe the unified anti-Jewish orientation of the nations led by Germany, it is suggested that this small group be given the opportunity of a separate existence (for example, as a closed construction or labor battalion)...

Despite their exempt status, confusion led to initial massacres. German soldiers who came across Karaims in Russia during the initial phase of Operation Barbarossa, not aware of their legal status under German law, attacked them; 200 were killed at Babi Yar alone. German allies such as the Vichy Republic began to require the Karaites to register as Jews, but eventually granted them non-Jewish status upon being instructed by Berlin.[6]

On interrogation, Ashkenazi rabbis in Crimea told the Germans that the Karaims were not Jews, in an effort to spare the Karaite community the fate of their Rabbanite neighbors.[7] Many Karaims risked their lives to hide Jews, and in some cases claimed that Jews were members of their community. Many of the Karaims were recruited for labor battalions.[8]

Karaim cemetery in Warsaw, established in 1890.

In Vilnius and Trakai, the Nazis forced Karaite Hakham Seraya Shapshal to produce a list of the members of the community. Though he did his best, not every Karaylar Jew was saved by Shapshal's list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Kipchak & Khazar Muslims United - Proud Turkic people Minute by Minute
[youtube:29e1po66]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxeZaW4rYGg[/youtube]29e1po66]

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

The Khazars and the Scythians

Vladimir Pomakov

E-mail: http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/khazar_history.htm

[sullivan]

According to genetics and DNA, it's not really credible at all.

Those are independent studies, I assume?  Or are they carried out by the very same people whose ancestry is the subject of the study?

[Ahmed]

Wherever they came from, here's where they're going.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

More confirmation that Europeans started out as "Hunters"... (But of course we all instinctively knew that all along...   --CSR)  
--------------
Thursday, August 25, 2011
New DNA Study and European Origins

Taken from BBC News website dated 24/8/11

A new study deals a blow to the idea that most European men are descended from farmers who migrated from the Near East 5,000-10,000 years ago.

The findings challenge previous research showing that the genetic signature of the farmers displaced that of Europe's indigenous hunters.

The latest research leans towards the idea that most of Europe's males trace a line of descent to stone-age hunters.

But the authors say more work is needed to answer this question.

The study, by an international team, is published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B.


"I would say that we are putting the ball back in the middle of the field" Dr Cristian Capelli University of Oxford

Archaeological finds show that modern humans first settled in Europe from about 40,000 years ago - during a time known as the Palaeolithic.

These people survived an Ice Age some 20,000 years ago by retreating to relatively warm refuges in the south of the continent, before expanding into northern Europe again when the ice melted.

But just a few thousand years after Europe had been resettled by these hunter-gatherers, the continent underwent momentous cultural change. Farmers spread westwards from the area that is now Turkey, bringing with them a new economy and way of life.

The extent to which modern Europeans are descended from these early farmers versus the indigenous hunter-gatherers who settled the continent thousands of years previously is a matter of heated debate.

The results vary depending on the genetic markers studied and are subject to differing interpretations.

Family tree

The latest study focused on the Y chromosome - a package of DNA which is passed down more or less unchanged from father to son.

The Y chromosomes carried by people today can be classified into different types, or lineages, which - to some extent - reflect their geographical origins.

More than 100 million European men carry a type called R-M269, so identifying when this genetic group spread out is vital to understanding the peopling of Europe.

R-M269 is most common in western Europe, reaching frequencies of 90% or more in Spain, Ireland and Wales.
Neolithic pottery The Neolithic was a time of momentous cultural change in Europe

But while this type reaches its highest distribution on the Atlantic fringe, Patricia Balaresque and colleagues at the University of Leicester published a paper in 2010 showing that the genetic diversity of R-M269 increases as one moves east - reaching a peak in Anatolia (modern Turkey).

Genetic diversity is used as a measure of age; lineages that have been around for a long time accumulate more diversity. So this principle can be used to estimate the age of a population.

When the Leicester team estimated how old R-M269 was in different populations across Europe, they found the age ranges were more compatible with an expansion in Neolithic times (between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago).

The team's conclusions received support from papers published in August 2010 and in June this year. But one study which appeared last year backed the idea of a more ancient, Palaeolithic origin for R-M269.
Age estimates

Now, a team including Cristian Capelli and George Busby at Oxford University have explored the question.

Their results, based on a sample of more than 4,500 men from Europe and western Asia, showed no geographical trends in the diversity of R-M269. Such trends would be expected if the lineage had expanded from Anatolia with Neolithic farmers.

Furthermore, they suggest that some of the markers on the Y chromosome are less reliable than others for estimating the ages of genetic lineages. On these grounds, they argue that current analytical tools are unsuitable for dating the expansion of R-M269.

Neolithic skeletons, the Valdaro lovers from Italy Studies of DNA from ancient remains could shed more light on European origins

Indeed, Dr Capelli and his team say the problem extends to other studies of Y-chromosome lineages: dates based on the analysis of conventional DNA markers may have been "systematically underestimated", they write in Proceedings B.

But Dr Capelli stressed that his study could not answer the question of when the ubiquitous R-M269 expanded in Europe, although his lab is carrying out more work on the subject.

"At the moment it's not possible to claim anything about the age of this lineage," he told BBC News, "I would say that we are putting the ball back in the middle of the field."

Co-author Dr Jim Wilson from the University of Edinburgh explained: "Estimating a date at which an ancestral lineage originated is an interesting application of genetics, but unfortunately it is beset with difficulties."

The increasing frequency of R-M269 towards western Europe had long been seen by some researchers as an indication that Palaeolithic European genes survived in this region - alongside other clues.

A more recent origin for R-M269 than the Neolithic is still possible. But researchers point out that after the advent of agriculture, populations in Europe exploded, meaning that it would have been more difficult for incoming migrants to displace local people.

WOTANS KRIEGER NOTE: R-M269 equates to haplgroup RIb

Posted by Wotans Krieger at 8/25/2011 11:14:00 AM

http://aryan-myth-and-metahistory.blogs ... igins.html

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Unearthed Aryan cities rewrite history

    From: The Sunday Times
    October 04, 2010 12:00AM

BRONZE Age cities archaeologists say could be the precursor of Western civilisation are being uncovered in excavations on the Russian steppe.

Twenty of the spiral-shaped settlements, believed to be the original home of the Aryan people, have been identified, and there are about 50 more suspected sites. They all lie buried in a region more than 640km long near Russia's border with Kazakhstan.

The cities are thought to have been built 3500-4000 years ago, soon after the Great Pyramid in Egypt. They are about the same size as several of the city states of ancient Greece, which started to come into being in Crete at about the same time.

If archeologists confirm the cities as Aryan, they could be the remnants of a civilisation that spread through Europe and much of Asia. Their language has been identified as the precursor of modern Indo-European tongues, including English. Words such as brother, guest and oxen have been traced back to this prototype.

"Potentially, this could rival ancient Greece in the age of the heroes," said British historian Bettany Hughes, who spent much of the northern summer exploring the region for a BBC radio program, Tracking the Aryans.

"We are all told that there is this kind of mother tongue, proto-Indo-European, from which all the languages we know emerge.

"I was very excited to hear on the archeological grapevine that in exactly the period I am an expert in, this whole new Bronze Age civilisation had been discovered on the steppe of southern Siberia."

She described driving for seven hours into the steppe grasslands with chief archeologist Gennady Zdanovich. "He took me to this expanse of grass; you couldn't tell there was anything special. Then, as he pointed to the ground, suddenly I realised I was walking across a buried city," she said.

"Every now and again you suddenly notice these ghostly shapes of fortresses and cattle sheds and homes and religious sites. I would not have known these had he not shown them to me."

The shape of each of the cities, which are mainly in the Chelyabinsk district, resembles an ammonite fossil, divided into segments with a spiral street plan. The settlements, which would each have housed about 2000 people -- the same as an ancient Greek city such as Mycenae -- are all surrounded by a ditch and have a square in the middle.

The first city, known as Arkaim, was discovered in 1989, soon after the soviet authorities allowed non-military aerial photography for the first time.

The full extent of the remains is only now becoming apparent. Items that have so far been dug up include many pieces of pottery covered in swastikas, which were widely used ancient symbols of the sun and eternal life. The Nazis appropriated the Aryans and the swastika as symbols of their so-called master race. Ms Hughes believes that some of the strongest evidence that the cities could be the home of the Aryans comes from a series of horse burials.

Several ancient Indian texts believed to have been written by Aryans recount similar rituals. "These ancient Indian texts and hymns describe sacrifices of horses and burials and the way the meat is cut off and the way the horse is buried with its master," she said. "If you match this with the way the skeletons and the graves are being dug up in Russia, they are a millimetre-perfect match."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 5933563131