Lying in Islam - Taqiyya

[DutchPhil]

Lying in Islam
By Abdullah Al Araby

Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying. The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."

However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged. The book "The spirit of Islam," by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah was written to promote Islam. On page 247, Tabbarah stated: "Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."

In exploring this puzzling duplicity within Islam, we will examine first some examples from recent and ancient Islamic history. These examples demonstrate that lying is a common policy amongst Islamic clerics and statesmen.

In June of 1967 Egypt was defeated by Israel and lost the Sinai Peninsula during the "Six Day War." Subsequently, Egypt's primary focus became to regain the lost territory. President Nasser, and then, President Sadat, adopted the motto: "No voice should rise over the voice of The Battle." The soldiers that had been drafted in 1967 were kept in service and remained on high alert in the expectation that at any day "the battle" would ensue. Nonetheless, years pasted and Egypt's people became disgruntle with the political hype and the "no peace, and no war" status. In 1972 Sadat proclaimed with finality that it was to be the year for the long anticipated battle. Throughout the year he swore, "I swear to you by my honor that this year will not pass by, before we launch The Battle." People believed him because he was staking his reputation and honor through an oath. To everyone's amazement the year passed without a single shot being fired. As a result many, inside and outside Egypt, began to dismiss him as a "hot air bluff". This opinion was confirmed in the following year of 1973. He made no further mention of his oath about the battle. Many of the draftees were released and numerous officers were given vacation furloughs. Then without warning, in October of 1973, he launched the attack and what was known as the Yom Kippur war began.

As a military commander, Sadat was expected to use the element of surprise to trick the enemy. As a devout Muslim, Sadat was not the least bit concerned about his un-kept oath. He understood that the history and teachings of Islam would exempt him from spiritual accountability if he used lies as a foundation for a strategic military maneuver.

This point is proven by many incidences in the life of Mohammed. He often lied and instructed his followers to do the same. He rationalized that the prospect of success in missions to extend Islam's influence overrode Allah's initial prohibitions against lying. A good example of sanctioned lying is the account of the assassination of Kaab Ibn al-Ashrf, a member of the Jewish tribe, Banu al-Nudair. It had been reported that Kaab had shown support for the Quraishites in their battle against Mohammed. This was compounded by another report that infuriated Mohammed. It was alleged that Kaab had recited amorous poetry to Muslim women. Mohammed asked for volunteers to rid him of Kaab Ibn al-Ashraf. As Mohammed put it, Kaab had "Harmed Allah and His Apostle." At that time Kaab Ibn al-Ashraf, and his tribe were strong, so it was not easy for a stranger to infiltrate and execute the task. A Muslim man by the name of Ibn Muslima, volunteered for the murderous project on the condition that Mohammed would allow him to lie. With Mohammed's consent, Ibn Muslima, went to Kaab and told him fabricated stories that reflected discontent about Mohammed's leadership. When he had gained Kaab's trust he lured him away from his house one night and murdered him in a remote area under the cover of darkness.

A similar example can be found in the story of killing Shaaban Ibn Khalid al-Hazly. It was rumored that Shaaban was gathering an army to wage war on Mohammed. Mohammed retaliated by ordering Abdullah Ibn Anis to kill Shaaban. Again, the would-be killer asked the prophet's permission to lie. Mohammed agreed and then ordered the killer to lie by stating that he was a member of the Khazaa clan. When Shaaban saw Abdullah coming, he asked him, "From what tribe are you?" Abdullah answered, "From Khazaa." He then added, "I have heard that you are gathering an army to fight Mohammed and I came to join you." Abdullah started walking with Shaaban telling him how Mohammed came to them with the heretical teachings of Islam, and complained how Mohammed badmouthed the Arab patriarchs and ruined the Arab's hopes. They continued in conversation until they arrived at Shaaban's tent. Shaaban's companions departed and Shaaban invited Abdullah to come inside and rest. Abdullah sat there until the atmosphere was quiet and he sensed that everyone was asleep. Abdullah severed Shaaban's head and carried it to Mohammed as a trophy. When Mohammed sighted Abdullah, he jubilantly shouted, "Your face has been triumphant (Aflaha al- wajho)." Abdullah returned the greeting by saying, "It is your face, Apostle of Allah, who has been triumphant. (Aflaha wajhoka, ye rasoul Allah)."
Provisions for lying in Islam

Most Muslims are familiar with the principles of Islam that will justify lying in situations where they sense the need to do so. Among these are:

    * War is deception.
    * The necessities justify the forbidden.
    * If faced by two evils, choose the lesser of the two.

These principles are derived from passages found in the Quran and the Hadith.
In the Quran, Allah, allegedly, says:

" Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful." Surah 5:89

"Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing." Surah 2:225

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Surah 16: 106

The noted Islamic commentator, Al-Tabary explained Surah 16:106 as a verse that had been revealed to Mohammed after he learned that Ammar Ibn Yasser was forced to deny his faith in Mohammed when kidnapped by the Banu Moghera tribe. Mohammed consoled Ammar by telling him, "If they turned, you turn." (Meaning: if they again capture you, you are allowed to deny me again.)

These and similar passages from the Quran clearly reveal that Muslims' unintentional lies are forgivable and that even their intentional lies can be absolved by performing extra duties. It is also clear that if forced to do so, Muslims can lie while under oath and can even falsely deny faith in Allah, as long as they maintain the profession of faith in their hearts.

In the Hadith, Mohammed, emphasizes the same concept.

From "Ehiaa Oloum al-Din," by the famous Islamic scholar al-Ghazali, Vol. 3: PP.284-287:

One of Mohammed's daughters, Umm Kalthoum, testified that she had never heard the Apostle of Allah condone lying, except in these three situations:

   1. For reconciliation among people.
   2. In war.
   3. Amongst spouses, to keep peace in the family.

One passage from the Hadith quotes Mohammed as saying: "The sons of Adam are accountable for all lies except those uttered to help bring reconciliation between Muslims."

Another says, "Aba Kahl, reconcile among people."(Meaning: even through lying.)

The following quote demonstrates the broadness of situations in which the prophet permitted lying. "The sons of Adam are accountable for all lies with these exceptions: During war because war is deception, to reconcile among two quarreling men, and for a man to appease his wife."
The principle of Al-Takeyya

The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28

According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.

Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:

    * Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
    * Renounce belief in Allah.
    * Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
    * Utter insincere oaths.

The implications of the principle of Al-Takeyya

Unfortunately, when dealing with Muslims, one must keep in mind that Muslims can communicate something with apparent sincerity, when in reality they may have just the opposite agenda in their hearts. Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened.

In the sphere of international politics, the question is: Can Muslim countries be trusted to keep their end of the agreements that they sign with non-Muslim nations? It is a known Islamic practice, that when Muslims are weak they can agree with most anything. Once they become strong, then they negate what they formerly vowed.

The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam's image and make it more attractive to prospective converts. They carefully try to avoid, obscure, and omit mentioning any of the negative Islamic texts and teachings.

An example of Islamic deception is that Muslim activists always quote the passages of the Quran from the early part of Mohammed's ministry while living in Mecca. These texts are peaceful and exemplify tolerance towards those that are not followers of Islam. All the while, they are fully aware that most of these passages were abrogated (cancelled and replaced) by passages that came after he migrated to Medina. The replacement verses reflect prejudice, intolerance, and endorse violence upon unbelievers

In conclusion, it is imperative to understand, that Muslim leaders can use this loop-hole in their religion, to absolve them from any permanent commitment. It is also important to know that what Muslim activists say to spread Islam may not always be the whole truth. When dealing with Muslims, what they say is not the issue. The real issue is, what they actually mean in their hearts.

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

[joeblow]

Hmmm Phil, I guess it must have really pissed you off that I made an interview where I made Leo Zagami cry like woman (will be uploaded soon), tkra is not going to upload Eric Jon Phelps/Greg Szymanski disinfo anymore, and tkra having a program on a real radio station.

By the way Abdullah al Araby is obviously a fake name, check out the other books the group of Intelligence Agents created using this pseudonym:

The Islamization of America: The Islamic Stategy and the Christian Response
Islam Unveiled
If Islam Ruled America
To Kill and to Die in the Name of Allah

The only thing I heard about lying being okey was when 1. Life in danger, 2. Stopping fights, 3. During a war. Trust me, I understand how limited these occasions must seem, especially for someone who supports the Talmudists, such as yourself. The MOSSAD really tipped their hand when they wrote this nonsense, too much emphasis on Jews:  In June of 1967 Egypt was defeated by Israel,  Kaab Ibn al-Ashrf, a member of the Jewish tribe.

From the website in question, runs alot of different organizations:

PO Box 661336. Los Angeles, CA 90066. US. Phone: +1 310 391 2890 mailto:ztruth@sbcglobal.net">ztruth@sbcglobal.net

The Pen vs. The Sword
Pen Publishers
Christian Copts of California
The Sword

Another strange thing is that they seem to publish a large amount of books and run alot of websites, but only on a supposed total budget of around $40k:

Asset Amount: $39,376
Income Amount: $36,864
Form 990 Revenue Amount: $29,454

[Anonymous]

you can't lie in Islam unless your life is threatened and even then if you can stomach it and you want to rock out for your faith you should tell the truth.

so yea, this is just dumb

[DutchPhil]

Cases in which lying IS permitted

One of the most interesting moral dilemmas for Islam are the cases in which lying is permitted

The Traditions tell us that there are three instances where deception can be used:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them). (Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05; see also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.857)

More information is provided by William Muir's "Life of Mahomet", Volume I, footnote 88:

The common Moslem belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:

1st, to save one's life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

To save one's life

The first is borne out by Mahomet's express sanction. Ammar ibn Yasir was sorely persecuted by the pagans of Mecca, and denied the faith for his deliverance. The Prophet approved of his conduct: - "If they do this again, then repeat the same recantation to them again." Katib al Wackidi; p. 227 ½. Another tradition preserved in the family of Yasir, is as follows: - "The idolators seized Ammar, and they let him not go until he had abused Mahomet and spoken well of their gods. He then repaired to the Prophet, who asked of him what had happened." - "Evil, oh Prophet of the Lord! I was not let go until I had abused thee, and spoken well of their gods." - "But how," replied Mahomet, "dost thou find thine own heart?" - "Secure and steadfast in the faith." - "Then," said Mahomet, "if they repeat the same, do thou too repeat the same." Ibid. Mahomet also said that Ammar's lie was better than Abu Jahl's truth.

To effect a peace or reconciliation

The second is directly sanctioned by the following tradition:- "That person is not a liar who makes peace between two people, and speaks good words to do away their quarrel, although they should be lies. Mishcat, vol ii. p.427.

To persuade a woman

As to the third, we have a melancholy instance that Mahomet did not think it wrong to make false promises to his wives, in the matter of Mary his Egyptian maid.

[This article provides more information on this incident.]

On the occasion of a journey or expedition

And regarding the fourth, it was his constant habit in projecting expeditions (excepting only that to Tabuk) to conceal his intentions, and to give out that he was about to proceed in another direction from the true one. Hishami, p. 392; Katib al Wackidi, p. 133 ½.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html

[joeblow]

For a site that actually takes the time to go through all these Jew lies http://www.examinethetruth.com/page_against_01.htm



Bogus website Answering-Islam.org DEBUNKED
Ali Sina of FaithFreedom.org caught RED HANDED
Irshad Manji UNVEILED
Phoney terrorist expert Craig Winn exposed as QUACK
Dr. Robert Morey EXPOSED

By the way,

Have you checked out:

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7431

IT WASN'T THE ARABS STUPID

It wasn't Arabs who sent our military into Afghanistan and Iraq to murder innocent women and children by the HUNDREDS of thousands - it was jews ( Bush's neocons).

It isn't Arabs who refuse to serve in the US Military in numbers proportionate to their population percentage - it is jews (1/10 of 1%, vs. 5%). ( I trained a LOT of combat troops during the Vietnam and Berlin Crisis era and I KNOW this fact FIRSTHAND!!!)

It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove the Ten Commandments from that Alabama courthouse, had Judge Moore removed from the bench and now seek to disbar him - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who sue to remove nativity scenes from public venues - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who erect menorahs in public venues in place of crosses - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove group prayer from public schools - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs suing to remove decorative lights from schools at Christmas - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who refuse to allow children to say grace over their school lunches - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who continue to impose affirmative action upon us in all walks of life - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who began and continue to expand militant feminism - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who buy off all our legislators with our own tax dollars - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who tried to sink the USS Liberty and killed and maimed so many of its crewmembers during an extended attack - it was jews.

It isn't Arabs enacting hate crime laws designed to outlaw criticism of themselves - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who run NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs suing to force us to allow homosexuals to lead boy scout troops - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who started and ran so many black militant organizations like the NAACP - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs importing huge numbers of Somalians and Bantu into American cities - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who formulated American legislation providing pensions to Russian jewish immigrants for doing nothing - it was jews.

It isn't Arabs who run organized crime throughout America - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who import tons of drugs into America every day - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who literally own and run all of Hollywood's moviemaking filth enterprise - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who literally own and run all of America's mainstream media - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs spewing obscenity and race-mixing propaganda from the TV and movie screens - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs trying mightily to block release of the Mel Gibson movie, "The Passion" - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs lying about and guilt tripping us with "the holocaust" - it is jews.
 
It isn't Arabs stealing American tax dollars to fund all their holocaust monuments throughout America - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who forged the Anne Frank "diary" - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who lied about gas chambers at Dachau and Auschwitz - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who lied about mass graves at Treblinka - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about jews being made into lamp shades and soap during WWII - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who doctored WWII prison camp photos to appear to be belching smoke from crematoria - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who used WWII pictures of dead non jews, claiming they were jews - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who made anti-semitical talk punishable by death in Russia after they took power - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who killed over 20 million Russian Christians - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who looted and destroyed the Russian economy with their usury and greed - it was jews.

It isn't Arabs who have amassed an illegal arsenal of over 300 nuclear weapons in the Middle East - it is the jews.

It isn't Arabs who brag about controlling America - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who advocate the use of torture by and on Americans - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who twist American laws to punish anti-semitical speech - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs endeavoring to get America to outlaw anti-semitical speech - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who sell goods that it is illegal in America to boycott - it is Israeli jews.

It isn't Arabs who extort "fees" for allowing their kosher label on goods - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who retaliate against rock-throwing children by shooting them in the head - it is jews. (I HAVE PERSONALLY WITNESSED THIS SADISTIC ISREALI PASSTIME)

It isn't Arabs stealing land in Palestine - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who ran down Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer - it was a jew.

It isn't Arabs who have caused America to spend $2.5 trillion ($31,250 per American family) in the Middle East - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who send teams of trained assassins into foreign countries, including America, to kill people with whom Israel disagrees - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who run the ADL, which maintains dossiers on thousands of law-abiding American citizens, for the purpose of punishing those with whom they disagree - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who break into and enter the offices and homes of law-abiding American citizens, to procure evidence both for their database and in the hopes of getting evidence they can pass to the FBI for prosecution - it is jews.

It isn't Arabs who have caused America to go from being the most-loved country in the world to the most hated - it is jews.
 
It wasn't the Arabs who produced the biggest traitors to America in all history ( Rosenbergs – Pollard & more!) it was the jews
 
It isn't the Arabs who participate in – support and or participate in EVERY MAJOR HOMOSEXUAL organization in America – it is the jews
 
It wasn't the Arabs who treatened the lives of Christian Actor /director MelGibson and his father for honoring God in his movie about the Passion of Christ – it was the jews!
 
It wasn't an Arab Congressman that made the following disgusting blasphemy and open hatred of Christians on the floor of Congress "Do not let the forces of evil  [Christians]  take over to make this a Christian America."( Senator Howard Metzenbaum, 11/6/86) – it WAS A JEW!
 
It isn't the Arabs who constitute an overwhelming majority of the treasonous Communist Party in OUR America – IT IS THE JEWS!
 
It isn't the Arabs that want to take our guns away in America – it is the jews
 
It isn't the Arabs who dominate the psychiatric quacks in America that keep our children drugged up 24/7 on Ritalin – it is the jews. ONE of these stinking jew pseudophysicians has ruined my own teenage son's life! It is a story EVERY AMERICAN PARENT NEEDS TO HEAR!!
 
It wasn't the Arabs who murdered several of my ex wife's family in cold blood because they were Christians – it was the jews! ( My ex wife's grandmother witnessed the horror of having her husband and sons murdered right before her very eyes by the sadistic jew CHEKA in the predominately Christian Ukraine!)
 
It wasn't an Arab Mayor that turned the quaint Latin quarter of my grandparents into a rotted hellhole of porn/ sleaze – and a haven for homo-pervert bars – it was a jewess.
 
It is not the Arabs who dominate America's virtually Marxist 'Democrat Party' of sleaze and filth – it is the jews ( over 90% of American jews are Democrats)
 
It is not the Arabs who have turned my once proud and wholesome America into a morally rotted corpse – it is the jews.
 
It is not the Arabs who percentage-wise dominate the militant in- you-face Christian hating – boy scout hating homosexual filth in America – it is the jews
 
It is not Arab representation in America that has turned virtually all of the former 'educational channels' on TV into vehicles for promoting atheism – it is the jews.
 
It was not the Arabs who have rotted/ruined perverted an entire generation of our youth with their filth, violence, vile language, perversions, gratuitous sex on cinema and TV- it has been the work of the jews
 
It wasn't the Arabs who have worked tirelessly to insure never ending hatred between the races – it IS the jews ( eg. NAACP)

 It isn't Arabs who regularly phony up "hate crimes" against themselves - it is jews.

It wasn't Arabs who caused the Great Depression - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who dragged American Christian sons into WWI - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who dragged American Christian sons into WWII - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who had JFK killed - it was jews.

It wasn't Arabs who demolished the World Trade Center - it was jews.

AND ---- It isn't Arabs bent upon destroying Christianity - it is jews.

And lest we forget:
It wasn't Arabs who had Jesus Christ crucified - it was jews.

[mastermg]

Theres some good responses to this on concen like:
1) The article is mostly talking about leaders, and all leaders lie not just Muslims
2) The author makes no preferences to strong-standing history
3) The author lies by saying that the Egyptians started the Yom Kippur war...
4) The author is not even Muslim and probably not Arab either, hes a racist

[DutchPhil]

Allah – The Greatest Deceiver of them All

Sam Shamoun

The Quran describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his opponents.

For example, the Quran calls Allah a makr, in fact the best makr there is:

    But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30

Other texts that identify Allah as a makr include:

    Are they then secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99 Pickthall

    So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme (Wamakaroo makran wamakarna makran), while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The word for deception/deceiver/scheme is makr. The lexical sources define the term as:

    Miim-Kaf-Ra = To practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to exercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice stratagem.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm

003:054*URL    And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
008:030*URL    And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.

http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get ... =3:54,8:30

[Travis]

This thread is ridiculous. A Muslim leader rules by Islam not by secular laws like President Nasser who fought for Arab nationalism over and against Islam.

'And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (disbelievers).  (Al-Ma'idah 5:44)


With regards to the verse that has been mis-translated by those who wish to deceive, a correct translation is as follows,

' And they disbelievers plotted (to kill Isa A.S), and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of those Who plot'.
3: 54


وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ

Furthermore, immorality is a facet and accepted practice of western international relations, also we all know how the Jew deceives the 'Goym' therefore what is the point of this thread?

[joeblow]

It arises from a dispute that I have with Phil:

Hmmm Phil, I guess it must have really pissed you off that I made an interview where I made Leo Zagami cry like woman (will be uploaded soon), tkra is not going to upload Eric Jon Phelps/Greg Szymanski disinfo anymore, and tkra having a program on a real radio station.

[Travis]

Joeblowman:

It arises from a dispute that I have with Phil:

Please can you explain further as I am a little lost. What has this got to do with people making silly claims that lying is an accepted norm of Islam?

[joeblow]

Joeblowman:

It arises from a dispute that I have with Phil:

Please can you explain further as I am a little lost. What has this got to do with people making silly claims that lying is an accepted norm of Islam?

Basically, he's a former admin and founding member of ConCen who I got kicked off from there. He's a big-time Black-Poper and supports Leo Zagami, who I got banned from ConCen.

[Travis]

Joeblowman:

It arises from a dispute that I have with Phil:

Please can you explain further as I am a little lost. What has this got to do with people making silly claims that lying is an accepted norm of Islam?

Basically, he's a former admin and founding member of ConCen who I got kicked off from there. He's a big-time Black-Poper and supports Leo Zagami, who I got banned from ConCen.

Ok but why has he launched an attack against Islam?
Is he one of those idiots that still believes Muslims are barbarians and the white European's way of life is the only salvation for mankind?

[high_treason]

Probably , btw the "copts of California" those are what we call in Egypt "copts of Mahjar" or the copts who immigrated, they have close ties to the neocon organizations, the mossad and the cia. Their dream and goal is to remove(exile, exterminate, convert) Muslims from Egypt and claim Egypt as the homeland. This is a dream and cannot become a reality for the simple reason of 95% of Egypt is Muslim. 4% copts, 1% other denominations. We have seen other attacks on Islam from a lot of hatters but that doesn't really do anything but show just how much hate these people have in their hearts, they lost on the debate tables when it came to Religious arguements, so what do they resort to? Slandering and Lies....just watch how Deedat kicked their butts on more than a few occassions.

[DutchPhil]

Thank you for your replies. I appreciate the concerns you guys raised.

Allow me to clarify. Me starting this thread has nothing to do with Joe or some personal petty disputes he has with John/tkra. I try to stay away from those childish and wasteful affairs of the ego as much as possible.

The real reason indeed has more to do with Leo as it was he who pointed out to me in out latest interview that there exist certain conditions under which Muslims are allowed to lie according to Islamic doctrine. He quoted the next passage from the Koran:

"Lying is wrong, except in three things:
the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him;
a lie to an enemy, for war is deception;
or a lie to settle trouble between people"
Ahmad, 6.459. H

Hence I decided to dig a little deeper and it didn't take a lot of effort to find out that it is indeed true that Muslim doctrine condones and even encourages lying to one's fellow man in order to accomplish one's goals. I've started this thread on several other forums and since this forum is anti-Zionist (something I do not regret of and by itself) and often seems to pick the sides of anti-anti-Zionists, e.g. Muslims, I thought that it would be appropriate to indicate that the Muslims aspire to a religion that is not exactly all peachy too. In case I have a hurt and/or insulted Muslims then I have no qualms to resort to the first word on the second text banner from the top:



I am sure that since you guys put enough stock into that word to put it up in a banner, you would not mind me confronting you with TRUTHful information coming directly from the Koran. It is kind of hard to spin information contained in my cited quotes as well as ignore it when it hits you in the face so directly and unambiguously.

For instance let's home in on the passages in the Koran that states that Allah is the greatest schemer/plotter.

First off let me address the idea that if Allah would be a true God, omnipotent and omniscient then why would he be in need of having to resort to secretly making plans? Also, if Allah would be a true God, then why would he favor one group of people and single out other groups of people worthy hate and worthy of having to be plotted against. I don't know about you guys but I want my God to be a lover of ALL mankind and FREE from hate and free from insidious urges to plot against my fellow human beings. I want my God to be merciful and just even with my potential enemies. Surely, a true almighty God would not have to steep so low as to have to secretly make plans against unfavored groups of people. If he truly would be almighty then why not work it out during the day with love, compassion and diplomacy instead of hatefully hiding and conniving in the night?

For those in doubt, or in opposition to, my line of reasoning claiming for instance that the verbs "to scheme" and "to plot" are all honky dory terms endeared by any moral and righteous man, let's examine the definition of "to scheme/to plot".

The verb, "to scheme", in its intransitive form (as it is used in the passage of the Koran), means:
intransitive verb: to form plans  ; also : plot  , intrigue
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scheme%5B2%5D

The first meaning, "to form plans", is neutral in its nature. However, the use of scheming in the cited Koran verse is "to scheme against", which negates neutrality and is in fact, by its personal nature, a tool of conflict. As such, the verb, "to intrigue", is much more representative to properly translate the meaning of "to scheme against":
1 a: a secret scheme : machination b: the practice of engaging in intrigues2: a clandestine love affair
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrigue

Therefore, according to Merriam Webster, "to scheme against" is synonymous with "to engage in intrigues".

What are intrigues?

The Principle of Intrigue

The essence of Intrigue

The concept 'intrigue' is charged with highly emotional connotations. People utter the word intrigue with repugnance. Intrigues are morally infamous and ugly. It is despicable to be unmasked as an intriguer.

Intrigue is a tactical attack from a safe shelter, designed to harm its victim. Cunningly, and usually with the help of camouflage, intrigue is effected to settle interpersonal conflicts.

The main ruses of intrigue are dialectic deformation of information and the manipulation of human behaviour, simplified by knowledge concerning typical reactions of the individual and his weakness. Dormant mistrust is easily aroused and the poison of artfully applied information works quickly. In 'Othello' Iago drops Desdemona's handkerchief and, fully aware of Othello's sensitivity, manipulates the Moor's jealousy to effect a fatal outcome. Only Iago knows the truth about the handkerchief - its dialectic - as, for Othello, the handkerchief is suffused with a different connotation, a connotation calculated by Iago. Iago's motive is camouflaged and Othello is unaware that he is about to become the victim of a ruse. Iago's dialectically calculated information, namely 'Desdemona's handkerchief lying on the ground', is the weapon whereby he wishes to achieve his aim. This malicious attack is a simply - conceived intrigue and clearly demonstrates its essence. Three people are generally involved in an intrigue. However, it is conceivable that an intrigue is affected between two people, if the plotter is able to make use of the sub consciousness or a suitable characteristic of a person. Thus Scarpia, the villainous chief of police in Puccini's Tosca, deceives the guileless Tosca by telling her that her lover will only be shot 'for appearance's sake' and will hence be executed with blank cartridges.

http://www.stratacom.de/intrigueengl..htm

To recap, we have a religion that espouses and encourages lying under certain conditions and which has a god that not only is engaged in formulating secret schemes and intrigues, something that is considered to be immoral by an acceptable standard of justice, but is even being celebrated in the Koran as being the best of the best thereof.

Considering that scheming and lying are condoned by the Koran, I challenge anyone to try and convince me how DECEIT is prohibited or not encouraged or not supported by Islamic standards. In the meantime I can only infer that Allah in fact is an INFERIOR god, a pretender, a fake god. He is a DEMONIC schemer against humanity rather than divine Embracer of all of Humanity, which are ALL his children if he would be the TRUE God. What type of god would think in terms of hate, permits lying while secretly scheming in the night?

Therefore, Allah is NOT the Almighty and Just God, his own words as stated in the Koran proves as much.

Disclaimer:
I am not a Talmudist, I am not a Black Poper at least not in the farcical sense it is portrayed, I am not a Jew, I am not a hater of Muslims, I am not a hater of anything in general even, I am not even your enemy, I am only interested in the TRUTH, no matter how ghastly it turns out to be and I will not shrink from articulating my opinion or findings.

[joeblow]

Dude Phil, don't play as if Leo isn't angry about all this stuff I did (banning) and am going to do (interview) to him. I think most Goyim are more worried about the Jewish Talmudists than Leo's Muslim Illuminati.

For instance let's home in on the passages in the Koran that states that Allah is the greatest schemer/plotter.

I'm not an Islamic Scholar at all, but by comparing the the DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS at the same time, it seemed to me the basic message was "What ever you try to do negative to God or his beloved, he can defeat you".

http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get ... =3:54,8:30

Pickthall    And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
Yusuf Ali   And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
Hilali-Khan   And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.
Shakir   And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.
Sher Ali   And Jesus's enemies planned and ALLAH also planned, and ALLAH is the Best of Planners.
Khalifa   They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.
Arberry   And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers.
Palmer   But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones!
Rodwell   And the Jews plotted, and God plotted: But of those who plot is God the best.
Sale   And [the Jews] devised a stratagem [against him]; but God devised a stratagem [against them]; and God is the best deviser of stratagems.
Transliterated Arabic   Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena
008:030
*
URL    
Pickthall   And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.
Yusuf Ali   Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and God too plans; but the best of planners is God.
Hilali-Khan   And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad SAW) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was planning, and Allah is the Best of the planners.
Shakir   And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.
Sher Ali   And remember when the disbelievers devised plans against thee that they might put thee in confinement or slay thee or expel thee. And they planned and ALLAH also planned, and ALLAH is the Best of planners.
Khalifa   The disbelievers plot and scheme to neutralize you, or kill you, or banish you. However, they plot and scheme, but so does GOD. GOD is the best schemer.
Arberry   And when the unbelievers were devising against thee, to confine thee, or slay thee, or to expel thee, and were devising, and God was devising; and God is the best of devisers.
Palmer   And when those who misbelieve were crafty with thee to detain thee a prisoner, or kill thee, or drive thee forth; they were crafty, but God was crafty too, for God is best of crafty ones!
Rodwell   And call to mind when the unbelievers plotted against thee, to detain thee prisoner, or to kill thee, or to banish thee: They plotted - but God plotted: and of plotters is God the best!
Sale   And [call to mind] when the unbelievers plotted against thee, that they might either detain thee [in bonds], or put thee to death, or expel thee [the city]; and they plotted [against thee]: But God laid a plot [against them]; and God is the best layer of plots.
Transliterated Arabic   Wa-ith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

[DutchPhil]

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/3/54/default.htm

You may cite passages that transliterate Allah to God as much as you want, but it will not diminish the strength of my argument.

I can understand why people worry about 6 million heavily armed Zionists but what about the threat of 1.5 BILLION potentially zealous and deceitful Muslims of which a fraction is setting up shop all over Europe?

[joeblow]

what about the threat of 1.5 BILLION potentially zealous and deceitful Muslims

So, we should deal with the POTENTIAL threat of Muslims, but not the ACTUAL threat of World Zionism that encouraged them to move into Europe and America by destroying their countries and telling them it was the Christians who did it? Sad, so very sad.

By the way Phil, check this out:

The Joe Blow Conspiracy Show - 081207 - Gossip, Opinions, History, News - http_www.youtube.com_user_joeblow0tiu.MP3

Today's topics:

1. Special message for Ognir http://www.theinfounderground.com
2. Craig Oxley of the Unhived Mind is too scared to debate me or Ognir http://z10.invisionfree.com/The_Unhived_Mind_II/
3. I interview Leo Zagami and make him cry at the end!
- You like the videos I made of you?
- Were you on welfare in Norway?
- Are you a paid Disinfo Agent?
- Why did you stop being a DJ when you moved to Norway?
- Why did you leave America?
- Are you only involved in fake Freemasonry/OTO/Agnosticism?
- You never pass the Fellowship degree?
- You got kicked out of the Kirby lodge for swearing?
- Do you have one name who I can use to confirm what you say is true?
- Can I come and visit the Illuminati with you?
- The International House of Pancakes owns the International House of Prayer?
- Monique Armstrong is an Israeli Ambassador?
- Aren't you only just a Conspiracy Enthusiast just like us?
- So you never have read conspiracy webpages?
- Why couldn't you find a job in Norway using the secret Masonic handshake?
- Can I meet these Swedish people who you claim to know?
- Why are you against Satanism, if you used to be a member in the OTO?
- Isn't even the 3rd Master Mason degree Satanic too?
- Didn't you only get those pictures by ambushing people at book signings and dinner parties?
- Did your wife leave you, because she got tired of you?
- Thomas Michelle was never in a car accident?
- Why can't you find a job in Rome using the Masonic handshake?
- You don't know how much is your paycheck?
- Didn't you run out of money in America?
- How can you start a business in America without a Greencard?
- If you're a real Freemason, how come you can't get rich from making contacts?
- From where are you getting the money for you new Center in America?
- Didn't you send a video to Ognir http://www.theinfounderground.com showing you with a bunch of guys saying you were going to kill Mike (Ctrl) from http://www.conspiracycentral.net ?
- You work with U.S. Military Intelligence and they run your website?
- What do you know about the Mafia?
- I went to a Jesuit school, why do you lie about them so much?
- You take Eric Jon Phelps seriously?
- Aren't all Italian Mafias basically just Freemasonry?
- Isn't Freemasonry the same as Mafias and Satanism?
- Are you still a Freemason?
- You're recognized by Prince Hall Freemasonry?
- Do you see white people at Prince Hall lodges?
- Are you allowed to take part in the monthly lunches at Masonic lodges?
- Who is the Green Lion Security?
- How much do you pay your security?
- Your security are government agents?
- Doesn't this prove that you're a Government Disinfo Agent?
- Why did you call Project Camelot Disinfo Agents?
- What happened to the swords?
- So, are you going to kill Mike (Ctrl)?
- Did you not cock a gun during an interview with Phil?
- Were you actually in the Ministry of Defense, or just the ROTC?
- How did you become a DJ?
- What equipment did you use?
- When did you make your first record or album?
- When did you become an International Club DJ?
- How much money did you get paid?
- How would you describe the music genre, was it only pop music?
- Do you have a message for Mike (Ctrl), Ognir, or the people at ConCen?
- So you're not going to ban ConCen from the Internet?
- Is Mike (Ctrl) scared of you?
- Did you send a Helicopter Assassination Team to assassinate Mike (Ctrl)?
- So you are going to tell your people not to attack or injure Mike (Ctrl)?
- LEO ZAGAMI STARTS CRYING!

Music:

LA TROPA F - JUAN SABOR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCoVMdD7LEA
Iran Soltane Ghalbha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmdjqqjUVU0



http://www.youtube.com/user/JoeBlow0TIU

[DutchPhil]

what about the threat of 1.5 BILLION potentially zealous and deceitful Muslims

So, we should deal with the POTENTIAL threat of Muslims, but not the ACTUAL threat of World Zionism that encouraged them to move into Europe and America by destroying their countries and telling them it was the Christians who did it? Sad, so very sad.

I never said this and you know it full well if you read back what I did write and IF you are honest.

In addition, it is easily demonstrable that the Catholic Church and the Muslim elite collaborate. It is not too hard to show that Zionists also collude with the Roman Church and it is therefore likely that all three groups are joined at the hip in the highest echelons of power.

[high_treason]

Lying is wrong, except in three things:
the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him;
a lie to an enemy, for war is deception;
or a lie to settle trouble between people"
Ahmad, 6.459. H

Dude who is Ahmad?!
Let me give you a little education about Islam, in order for you to talk about it, you have to use certain CREDIBLE sources, those are the Quran, Saheeh Bukhari, Saheeh Moslim and the Seera Al Nabawiya.

Saying Ahmad 6.459 has absolutely no meaning. Ahmad is a name of a person obviously, since nothing else comes after his name then he is an unknown. Since the Sahaba (Redwan Allah Alaihim) all were known for instance you have Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Amr Ibn El Aas, Abu Bakr Al Sadiq, Bilal Ibn Rabah and so on. About a man lying to his wife it is not acceptable, no verse in the Quran says so and nothing in the Hadith says so either. A marriage is a sacred commitment and honesty is an integral part of it.

Lying to the enemy is not the right word, since you are obviously doing the same mistake as all the so called orientalists of using Romance language to translate a Semitic language (look at the Armaic to Greek translation of the Bible and how that changed whole meanings and passages). The word is not LIE it is TRICK (Khidaá) to trick your enemy, is not the same as to lie. Tricking an enemy in war is like being cunning which is a vital trait of any commanding officer. But lying implies dishonesty and this would mean that you would be allowed to lie and kill prisoners and those things are not acceptable so again the word LIE is never acceptable, the proper word is Khidaá which means to trick.

Finally settling disputes again you are not to lie, lying is one of those big sins in Islam, so if you are going to quote something quote with proper translation and backed by proper sources. But taking words from someone who obviously doesn't know anything about Islam like this "zagami the salami" character will not help you understand. Unless you are a sheep who just follows without doing your own research. Now I have given you the name of the sources you do the research and come back with it. But don't be qouting unknowns with a bunch of numbers next to them again cause it really makes you look like an idiot especially to people who know Islam.

[high_treason]

Also saying Muslim elite, has no meaning whatsoever, since we don't have a pope or a council like thing which we follow, Al Azhar is a university with many scholars from different Madhab (way), they agree and disagree but no one has power over all.
The Mufti can put a fatwa out, people can agree or disagree with it, it is also their choice no one can force them to accept it, the Imams and Muftis are respected for their knowledge but they are not considered an absolute authority, they make mistakes and they are humans with flaws. their opinions are respected but again not absolute.

So we have no central power as you imply which again shows you that zagami the salami is not giving you any proper information. Sunni Moslems don't have any central power, they disagree and agree on several issues with regards to which of the early imams they followed (Hanbali, Hanifa, Malik..).

I don't know much about Shia'a Islam but I know they also have different Madhab you have Twelvers, Zaidis ect. so you cannot lump all Muslims and say oh they have "elites". We don't have Elites, never did and never will. Since elitism is contridictory to Islam. So thank you for saying this elite thing cause it just proved my point.

[DutchPhil]

I don't know much about Shia'a Islam but I know they also have different Madhab you have Twelvers, Zaidis ect. so you cannot lump all Muslims and say oh they have "elites". We don't have Elites, never did and never will. Since elitism is contridictory to Islam. So thank you for saying this elite thing cause it just proved my point.

Have you ever heard of the Golden Chain of Forty?

Naqshbandi Golden Chain
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The Naqshbandi Golden Chain is a lineage spiritual masters of the Naqshbani-Haqqani sub-order related to each other going back to the Prophet Muhammad, upon whom be peace and blessings. It is a chain in which each scholar was given ijaza, permission, by his own teacher to transmit the knowledge he had received to the next generation of students in the traditional manner of Sufi transmission. The Golden Chain, as different from all other Sufi lineages, is unique in that it stems from the first caliph of the Prophet, upon whom be blessing and peace,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqshbandi_Golden_Chain

http://www.naksibendi.org/index.html

If this is not an elitist get-together then I don't know what is...

The statement that Muslims do not have an elite is contradictory to the existence of Sheiks, Grand-sheiks, Sufi Orders, and religious leaders such as Fethullah Gulen, leader of the Muslim Gulen Movement.

[joeblow]

Unlike you Black-Popers, I don't have to lie to prove my points. I honestly have never met a Sufi (Naqshbandi), though I have heard that a lot of Kurds (like me) and Albanians are a part of it. From my personal studies of Islamic History, I haven't ever come across an occasion where a Muslim Leader was a part of such groups, other than the period where the Hashshashin used to threaten leaders in the Middle East with assassination (until the Mongols obliterated them).

Sheik = Tribal leader
Grand Sheik = Doesn't exist in the Arabic language, purely an Western construct
Sufi Orders = People are usually born into them, I've never heard (even second-hand) someone becoming a Sufi
Fethullah Gulen = An obvious Intelligence Agent, but I don't know who he exactly works for

By the way,

I saw that you downloaded my interview with The Zagami Monster. Did you enjoy it?

[DutchPhil]

Sheik = Tribal leader
Grand Sheik = Doesn't exist in the Arabic language, purely an Western construct

Western construct hey.... well how do you explain this?

The Grandsheykh of the Naks-I'bendi Hakkani Tarikat is Sultan Evliya Mevlana Seyh Muhammad Nazim al-Hakkani el-Kibrisi. His deputy, Sheykh Abdul Kerim al-Kibrisi, established the Osmanli Naks-I'bendi Hakkani Dergahi in the Catskill Mountains of New York in 2002, after a quarter century of leading tarikat activities in New York City. The makam (shrine) of Grandsheykh Abdullah Daghestani, may Allah bless his secret, is on the dergah land.  

http://www.naksibendi.org/index.html

What about this page?

http://www.naksibendi.org/photos.html

Also a purely western construct? Perhaps a bunch of Europeans dressed up and posing as Arabs?

[DutchPhil]

To deny that Islam does not have an elite is tantamount to saying that it has no leadership, a contention that is patently absurd as it is in sharp contradistinction with actuality as well as common sense.

For instance try to explain the position of Said Nursi in Islam.

http://www.ibtauris.com/display.asp?K=9 ... m=31&dc=48

Or Fethullah Gulen:

http://en.fgulen.com/about-fethullah-gulen.html

Or Harun Yahya:

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Or Gabriele Mandel Khan:

http://www.gabrielemandel.net/

Or even the concept of Mahdi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

or

Sayyid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid

[mastermg]

Sheik = Tribal leader
Grand Sheik = Doesn't exist in the Arabic language, purely an Western construct

Western construct hey.... well how do you explain this?

The Grandsheykh of the Naks-I'bendi Hakkani Tarikat is Sultan Evliya Mevlana Seyh Muhammad Nazim al-Hakkani el-Kibrisi. His deputy, Sheykh Abdul Kerim al-Kibrisi, established the Osmanli Naks-I'bendi Hakkani Dergahi in the Catskill Mountains of New York in 2002, after a quarter century of leading tarikat activities in New York City. The makam (shrine) of Grandsheykh Abdullah Daghestani, may Allah bless his secret, is on the dergah land.  

http://www.naksibendi.org/index.html

What about this page?

http://www.naksibendi.org/photos.html

Also a purely western construct? Perhaps a bunch of Europeans dressed up and posing as Arabs?

Again, thats part of the Sufi order, which I also have never met, seen, or second-hand heard of anyone in it. Also Sufism is like a cult, you dont have to follow it and there are Sunnis/Shiaas in it and they believe theres a stronger more spiritual meaning in the Quran, and you can see from here that the Sufis are working towards corruption. Please cite your sources on knowledgable information that is true for the majority of the Muslims.

[mastermg]

To deny that Islam does not have an elite is tantamount to saying that it has no leadership, a contention that is patently absurd as it is in sharp contradistinction with actuality as well as common sense.

For instance try to explain the position of Said Nursi in Islam.

http://www.ibtauris.com/display.asp?K=9 ... m=31&dc=48

Or Fethullah Gulen:

http://en.fgulen.com/about-fethullah-gulen.html

Or Harun Yahya:

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_about_site.php

Or even the concept of Mahdi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

or

Sayyid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid

I cant argue against all of these simply because I've personally never heard of Said or heard much about Fethullah but in Harun Yahyas case, come on now Phil. Harun Yahya is an independent researcher with a Ph.D in Islamic studies. He is not and does not claim to have power over anyone, how is he part of the "elite"? So if I get a Ph.D in Islamic studies and produce a few documentaries and books on the importance of Islam in everyday life, im now magically part of the elite?

If your going to attack Islam, attack the foundations of the religion i.e the Holy Quran, since the Quran is the main source of these "elitists".

The mahdi is not part of the elite system either, the mahdi is the person in charge of the construct of the Islamic government system, but the difference between the Mahdi and Hitler is that the Mahdi does not rule by his words, he rules by the Quran and its given guidelines. Basically God is ruling, not the human.

[Travis]

DutchPhil  I don't know who you are or what you stand for but I can tell this much, based on your ignorant posts, you know nothing about Islam. Furthermore not only have you demonstrated a profound ignorance in your perverse and convoluted understanding of Islam but you have also attacked Islam on matters that are accepted norms in western Christian politics. To use the idiom your actions are like the 'Pot calling the kettle black' is an understatement.

Seeing that your attacks are coming from a specific angle lets start from here, what do believe and what is the bases for belief?

[joeblow]

Seeing that your attacks are coming from a specific angle lets start from here, what do believe and what is the bases for belief?

To put it simply, he's a Black-Poper (who they call me as a "Temporal Coadjutor" :lol: ) and is the "scribe" of Leo Zagami (whose reputation I ruined in the past and have done once again now).

It's a long story, Skype me joeblowman, if you want to hear the silly history (which Phil actually takes very seriously :roll: ).

[high_treason]

The statement that Muslims do not have an elite is contradictory to the existence of Sheiks, Grand-sheiks, Sufi Orders, and religious leaders such as Fethullah Gulen, leader of the Muslim Gulen Movement.

Sheiks: means a tribal leader just as Jeoblow mentioned, also used as a term of respect for an old man since it means "old man".

Grand-Sheik: Does not exist, Grand Imam never heard of it.

Sufi orders: considered apostates in Islam and you can ask any Moslem scholar or Mufti and he will tell you the same.

Fethullah Gulen?? who the hell is that? Gulen movement? there are no movements with in Islam

Do you know what Islam religion is about?

Next thing you know you will be saying Bahais and Agha Khans, Druze are Moslems, since you have taken such liberty to add Islamilis 'Hashishins' (murders and drug addicts) who are considered apostates as well. As I said before giving me a bunch of weird ass websites with no validity. Do you have something solid from the Quran? the Hadith? if not then just quit trying to make yourself look more and more like an idiot.

Yes there is no leadership in Islam. You can even find it in wikipedia we don't have a pope or a council that governs us. Its pretty much you read the Quran, do the 5 pillars and read the Hadith and follow the 10 commandments. Anything extra you can find from reading the Quran and Hadith if you have anything from them tell me what it is and then we can debate. But quoting some Sufi orders and Bahais and that Gulen thing which I have never heard of before just shows how desperate you are in trying to prove something that doesn't exist.

No Leadership in Islam, Imams are leaders during prayer of Jama'a and give a speech (Khutba) on Fridays thats it, Mufti is a scholar in Hadith and/or Quran and gives a fatwa or Tashira (Sharia Law) according to his understanding of the situation and he doesn't give it alone as others will have to agree with him and some might disagree with him. Fatwas are not given on any subject only on certain subjects which require extensive knowledge of the Quran and Hadith and even with that you will still find people disagreeing with it.

Again if you want to argue about Islam, I have had many debates with Christians and Athiests. But by far you are the most ill informed, if you want to argue Islam argue from my book and my beliefs which are in the Quran and Hadith. Don't give me obscure websites, give me verses from the Quran, give me a Hadith...but don't insult my intelligence with such crap from your Salami friend who is obviously a disinfo.

[DutchPhil]

If your going to attack Islam, attack the foundations of the religion i.e the Holy Quran, since the Quran is the main source of these "elitists".

Thank you that's exactly where I want to go and was the reason for starting this thread. All these silly ad hominem attacks are a innocent and childish distraction at best and intentionally applied Al-Taqiyya at worst.

My original challenge thus still stands.

Allah practices deceit is thus not a genuine god. The Koran's morals are corrupt as it promotes the practice of lying.