The Torah has multiple interpretations and "applications"

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

CONTINUED FROM THIS THREAD viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9599&start=165#p36495

The Torah has multiple interpretations and "applications".  

Worth a look. Particularly on how it is perceived in both  Christian and Judaic contexts. Look at Oral Contexts as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

Timothy... You are wrong about the Torah. The term can be interchangeable with the Pentateuch. But it is more commonly used as a reference to the entirety of Jewish "religious" texts.
JoeBlow...Yes, this thread has wandered way off base. Time to move this discussion to a new thread with an appropriate title.

Actually no, I am not wrong. The Torah technically only refers to the law, however, you are correct that Torah can take on a broad meaning. Torah can also refer to the Talmud as well. But truly it should only mean the law.

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

True, crack, as I said in my previous post, Torah can also refer to the Talmud. But technically, it only refers to the Law (Mosaic books).

But that is besides the point, I was trying to show the Old Testament illiterate how Zionism is 100% Torah-Talmud based, thus 100% Judaism.

[joeblow]

Now that we are in a separate thread, I can give my 2 cents.

What TalmudTimmy means is that: Old Testament = Written Torah, Talmud = Oral Torah.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Also worth a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

[THE AQUARIAN 1]

Apparently CJB is a zionist as well.  

Not sure if you missed this when I said it Timmy, but on a basic level the Talmud is an extrapolation of the Torah, the five books of Moses.  The Torah is the law sent directly from God through Moses.  Anyone who places the Talmud above the Torah is breaking the first commandment.  You are right in suggesting that most Jews are being misled by their Rabbis.  But just because a bunch of Rabbis think the Talmud is more important than the Torah does not mean that it actually is more important.

In terms of the correct spelling/pronunciation of the true name of the one called Jesus Christ, there is debate about whether the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and subsequently translated into Greek.  One side believes that the Gospels were originally written in Greek, which is referred to as Greek primacy.

I personally do not hold this belief.  I believe the original Gospels were written in Aramaic.  Therefore, the Hebrew (יהושע "Yahweh is salvation") is translated as Yahshua or Yeshua.  In fact, many Jews would prefer it if you used the Greek transliteration, as the name (יהוה, Yahweh, YHWH) is sacred and not be uttered out loud by human beings.  When referencing Yahweh, Jews use the term "haŠem" which is translated as "the name," out of respect for the name of God.  Using the true name of Jesus would break the third commandment.

CJB doesn't make a whole lot of sense when he says things like this:

"Zionism and Judaism are indistinguishable, but this does not mean that Judaism must be interpreted as the Zionists interpret it, or that every aspect of Judaism is Zionist. It does, however, mean that Zionism is Judaism."

This is a logical fallacy, plain and simple, the same one Timothy continues to throw around on this board without seeming to have read anyone's posts in refutation of it.  I'm growing weary of hearing the same position stated without any regard to the refutations that have been posted on this board.  Until you 'all Jews are evil' people deal with the refutations that have been posted, this discussion is going to go nowhere.  It's already gone in five or six circles.

On this particular issue, you are on the side of Zionists.  Would you agree?  If not, please state, very fucking clearly, why.

Yours,

THE AQUARIAN 1

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

Apparently CJB is a zionist as well.  

Who the hell is CJB? This forum loves the abbreviations, doesn't it?

Not sure if you missed this when I said it Timmy, but on a basic level the Talmud is an extrapolation of the Torah, the five books of Moses.  The Torah is the law sent directly from God through Moses.  Anyone who places the Talmud above the Torah is breaking the first commandment.  You are right in suggesting that most Jews are being misled by their Rabbis.  But just because a bunch of Rabbis think the Talmud is more important than the Torah does not mean that it actually is more important.

The Rabbis and specifically the Sanhedrin are the authority. It doesn't matter that some Jews or some Christians know that the Bible is the real authority.

In terms of the correct spelling/pronunciation of the true name of the one called Jesus Christ, there is debate about whether the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and subsequently translated into Greek.  One side believes that the Gospels were originally written in Greek, which is referred to as Greek primacy.

Either way, "Yeshua" or its hundreds of variations is a guess name at best and should not be used in academic discussions.

I personally do not hold this belief.  I believe the original Gospels were written in Aramaic.  Therefore, the Hebrew (יהושע "Yahweh is salvation") is translated as Yahshua or Yeshua.  In fact, many Jews would prefer it if you used the Greek transliteration, as the name (יהוה, Yahweh, YHWH) is sacred and not be uttered out loud by human beings.  When referencing Yahweh, Jews use the term "haŠem" which is translated as "the name," out of respect for the name of God.  Using the true name of Jesus would break the third commandment.

YHVH, the tetragrammaton, is extracted from the Kabbalah, NOT the Bible. YHVH has a negative connotation in reference to deity.

This is a logical fallacy, plain and simple, the same one Timothy continues to throw around on this board without seeming to have read anyone's posts[ in refutation of it.  I'm growing weary of hearing the same position stated without any regard to the refutations that have been posted on this board.  Until you 'all Jews are evil' people deal with the refutations that have been posted, this discussion is going to go nowhere.  It's already gone in five or six circles.

I do read all of your posts, its just that you dont make any refutations. You just keep repeating your beliefs without back them up.

On this particular issue, you are on the side of Zionists.  Would you agree?  If not, please state, very fucking clearly, why.

Why would you think I was on the Zionists side? You really dont read people well, do you? Nor do you do your homework. Check out my homepage.

[sullivan]

Actually no, I am not wrong. The Torah technically only refers to the law, however, you are correct that Torah can take on a broad meaning. Torah can also refer to the Talmud as well. But truly it should only mean the law.

You were wrong in stating that the term applies only to the Pentateuch.  

In Rabbinic Judaism, there are two Torahs, Torah shebealpeh (the five books) and Torah shebikhtav (an oral Torah supposedly given by their deity to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on orally since then).  

Then, to further confuse matters, the term Torah is interchangeable with the entirety of Jewish religious texts.

It's a moving target if ever there was one.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

You were wrong in stating that the term applies only to the Pentateuch.

In Rabbinic Judaism, there are two Torahs, Torah shebealpeh (the five books) and Torah shebikhtav (an oral Torah supposedly given by their deity to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on orally since then).

Then, to further confuse matters, the term Torah is interchangeable with the entirety of Jewish religious texts.

It's a moving target if ever there was one.

Here are my thoughts on this:

 1. Zionism existed sincethe destruction of the 2nd Temple and the Jewish exile to Pagan Babylon, where over hundreds of years, the Rabbis basically copied Babylonian Priestly Temple practices and formulated them into the Talmud (e.g., Ishtar child sacrifice included). Rabbis are a lot like Babylonian priests upon which the "Jewish" cult and Talmud have spread through the centuries. The Masonic traditions were built upon these Babylonian founded Jewish traditions as well.  
 2. Jewish loss and recapture of their territorial Nation by Persia-Greece-Rome. The reaction against Hellenism made them adversarial to "Others". Hellenism was too strong as slowly the Greek world converted many Jews to the Hellenistic world view. Basically, Jews became the "other" with just a core of Faithful "other" world hating Jews remaining.
 3. The Jewish diaspora after subjugation and enslavement by Rome in 70 CE.
 4. Jewish proselytism of peoples throughout the Roman world and post Roman world. Jews are an amalgam of different races throughout the ages via conversion even though their "Babylonian Temple-ism" (Race, Money, Law) has required them not to mix with the Goyim.  Even if their numbers are few in DNA screening or whatever, Jews have been attempting to "convert" others into the Cultic (tribe).
 5. Modern Judaism is a syncretic mess from the Zoroastrian, Canaan-Babylonian temple practices, to the Torah, cult mysticism, Kabbalah, and Rabbinic Oral laws, along with an over-riding belief in a redemptive Historical continuum -- basically they "win it all" at the end of times.
6. Gentile Nationalism, Christ and Islam are both threats to their Historical continuum and cult.  Particularly Nations with a unification of Church and State that have success are the greatest threats. They invalidate the Jewish National Cult, Codexes and Traditions.

So, Zionism is the summation and unification of the National, Religious and Favored People under the umbrella of Babylonian-Rabbinic Pagan-Torah Syncretism codified primarily in the Babylonian Talmud. The Torah is applied for the National Characteristics (Laws, Sacrifices) while the Religious Characteristics are a Syncretic mess of Babylonian Temple-ism and Mystic Rabbinic missives all codified in contradictory elitism.
Therefore, Rabbinicly led Jewry, like the Babylonian or Egyptian Priestly class, see themselves standing above all non-elect and of course they rank themselves first accordingly. It's a sick cult now with a Modern Nation given to them by their fellow cultists. The cult carries on with all the Temple cult like practices since ancient times particularly in regards to sacrifices, promises, legalism and money. If you met Babylonian Temple priests to Ishtar in 550 BC, you would see them much like Modern Rabbis today.  They won't stop the cult until it rules the world by proxy.

Jews can not perpetuate their Cult, Elitism, Scams and Murders unless they have all of the codified "laws" to induct generation after generation into the secrets of their cult.

This article has remarks on Judaism as Syncretic Practice:
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/syncretism.htm

[Timothy_Fitzpatrick]

Jews can not perpetuate their Cult, Elitism, Scams and Murders unless they have all of the codified "laws" to induct generation after generation into the secrets of their cult.

Excellent points.

Fruthermore, before people start jumping on the bandwagon of victimizing the Jewish people for being oppressed by the Talmudists and their Sanhedrin, remember that Jews are as human as we are and are as capable of deciphering right form wrong as we are. Each and every one of them knows what they are getting into.

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

Fruthermore, before people start jumping on the bandwagon of victimizing the Jewish people for being oppressed by the Talmudists and their Sanhedrin, remember that Jews are as human as we are and are as capable of deciphering right form wrong as we are. Each and every one of them knows what they are getting into.

Of that Tim, I wholeheartedly agree.

They know exactly how and why the game is played in all respects. If there actually are good Jews, and then they must be the Jews who do not adhere to corrupted Rabbinical Judaism, or the offshoots of Secular forms of  corrupted Judaism like Globalism, Nihilism, Moral corruption, money grubbing, etc..
Like John Kaminiski says, "The judgment is for the Gentiles to make, not the Jews themselves."

This is an example of it:

Jewish Control Of The Catholic Mind - Interview With E. Michael Jones

January 17, 2010

E. MICHAEL JONES, AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN, is a former professor at Saint Mary's College in Indiana and the current publisher of Culture Wars Magazine.

As the author of several books, Jones' later works focus on Jewish opposition to the Catholic Church throughout history and its pernicious effect on Western culture.

His masterwork, The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit, outlines through a tour of world history, Jewish strategies designed to oppose Christian society from the times of Christ to the present day. (Order Here.)
__

Brother Nathanael Kapner: Can you tell us of your own experiences in the scenario of Catholic-Jewish dialogue?

E. Michael Jones PhD: In the spring of 2009, I was asked to teach a course on the revolutionary Jew, based on my book, "The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit," at the Little Flower Parish in South Bend, Indiana.

Every rabbi in town and the Jewish Federation called the Parish demanding that my invitation be revoked. I was then informed that my course would be replaced by a series of lectures on Jesus to be team-taught by a local rabbi and a Notre Dame grad with a Master's Degree in Theology.

The text for the course was, "The Misunderstood Jew," by Amy Jill Levine, a book which blasphemes Jesus Christ, contradicts the New Testament, and slanders the Catholic Church. One of Levine's favorite topics, as featured in her talks at ADL conferences, is how the New Testament "infects congregations and classrooms around the world with anti-Semitism."

This past winter, Bishop Kevin Rhoades was appointed to our diocese in Indiana. Rhoades had demanded that the renowned Catholic apologist, Dr. Robert Sungenis, cease from speaking about the Jews due to his "disruption" of Catholic-Jewish dialogue. If Bp. Rhoades is interested in how dialogue really works in his new diocese he should look into how my course was replaced.

Br. Nathanael: Is the dialogue between Jews and Catholics bearing any fruit?

E. Michael Jones: Only for the Jews.

For example, last January, Rabbi David Rosen, Director of the American Jewish Committee's Department for Interreligious Affairs, told the Jerusalem Post that he would be "very surprised" if the Society of St. Pius X were readmitted to the Catholic Church due to Bp. Williamson's 'holocaust denial.'

Earlier, Rosen told the Post, "The embrace of an open Holocaust denier and the Society he represents, is shameful, a serious blow for Jewish-Vatican relations."

Rabbi Rosen is now claiming veto power for the Jews in determining who is and who is not a good Catholic so as either to be admitted or shut out from the Church. In other words, dialogue has become the vehicle for Jewish control of the Catholic mind.

Br. Nathanael: What about maintaining good relations with the Jews?

E. Michael Jones: The Church can have unity or she can have good relations with the Jews. But she can't have both.

JEWISH SUBVERSION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Br. Nathanael: Are Catholics beginning to react against Jewish control of the Catholic Church?

E. Michael Jones: Indeed they are. Our Bishops are beginning to as well. This is because dialogue has become a synonym for Jewish subversion of Church teaching.

After years of dialogue, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops under the direction of Cardinal Keeler, issued a joint Catholic Jewish statement in 2002 on "Covenant and Mission" which affirmed that Jews could be saved without accepting Christ as their saviour.

However, in June 2009 the same bishops had to issue a "clarification" which repudiated their own statement. It turns out that, upon reflection, the bishops concluded that the Mosaic covenant between God and the Jews was no longer "eternally valid," and that Jews did have to convert if they wanted to be saved after all.

Br. Nathanael: You say that dialogue is a synonym for Jewish subversion of Catholic teaching. Are there any examples of this activity by organized Jewry?

E. Michael Jones: Yes. In spite of all the dialogue, Jewry's hidden agenda to subvert the Church came to the fore recently.

On September 17, 2009, the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee, B'nai B'rith International, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, Hadassah, the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, the National Council of Jewish Women, Na'amat USA, the Rabbinical Assembly, the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, and the Women of Reform Judaism, all signed a friend of the court brief demanding that Obama allow the Catholic Church no exemptions of "Right of Conscience" when it comes to hiring homosexuals. Jews allow for themselves "right of conscience" but will not allow it for Catholics.

The intent behind Jewry's court brief to Obama is to create a fifth column within the Catholic Church, one which, because of the nature of its sexual activities, can be used to prompt a whole new series of lawsuits. With "Elder Brothers" like this, as Catholic-Jewish dialogue has defined the Jews, who needs enemies? View Entire Story Here & Here.

FOXMAN BLACKLISTS E. MICHAEL JONES

Br. Nathanael: How did Abraham Foxman of the ADL respond to the Bishops' assertion that Jews must embrace Christ?

E. Michael Jones: Foxman was outraged by what he considered a volte face on dialogue. In September 2009, Foxman delivered a scathing denunciation of the Bishops' clarification. But the simple fact remained: Whenever the bishops engaged in dialogue with the Jews, they repudiated the Gospel.

Conversely, when our Bishops acted on their own and reaffirmed the Gospel, they invariably outraged the Jews. This leads me to refine my previous statement: The Church can proclaim the Gospel or she can pursue good relations with the Jews. But she can't do both.

Br. Nathanael: Why do you think the Jews become outraged at the preaching of the Gospel?

E. Michael Jones: Anyone who has read the Gospel of St. John or the Acts of the Apostles or St. Paul's Epistle to the Thessalonians should know the answer. It's because the Jews rejected Christ, and in rejecting Christ they rejected Logos, and in rejecting Logos — the Reason for the universe and its redemption — they became, not only as St. Paul puts it, "enemies of the entire human race," but foes of the moral and political order of the universe. As a result, the Jews engage in continual anarchy against reason and truth, a decision they solemnly ratified when they chose Barabbas over Christ.

Rejection of Jesus Christ is the core of Jewish identity. And this identity will remain so until the Jews repudiate their rejection of Jesus Christ and accept Him as their saviour.

Br. Nathanael: Has there been any outrage towards you by the ADL due to your tremendous influence through Culture Wars Magazine amongst thousands of Catholics?

E. Michael Jones: In May 2009, following the appearance of my article, "Deborah Lipstadt and Holocaust Denial," Abraham Foxman, screech owl of the Anti Defamation League, put me on their Web Sites' most wanted list. By calling me, in his typical use of propaganda against those who expose his lies and agenda, an "extremist," Foxman sought to discredit me. But it didn't work.

It didn't work because Catholics are beginning to connect the dots. And if connecting the dots leaves us open to the charge of anti-Semitism, we simply respond by saying that correcting bad theology on the Jews is our way of helping them.

To put it another way, Culture Wars has broken the lock which has kept the Catholic mind under Jewish control for the past 40 years. Foxman now realizes that the Church is heading in the other direction on all of the issues that he and the Jews whom he represents consider crucial to their cause but ruinous to ours.

After 40 years of unprecedented advances in subversion and covert warfare, the Jews are finally starting to lose control of the Catholic mind.

http://www.realzionistnews.com/?p=476

[CrackSmokeRepublican]

we simply respond by saying that correcting bad theology on the Jews is our way of helping them

Amen to that!    

[scorpio]

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/cgi-b ... _Pamphlets

Read this book....It will answer a lot of questions.
This goes to the very core of Judaism and Rabbinic thought:
Any ridiculous philosophy is okay as long is it justifies and facilitates our zionist objectives  :roll: